Church Unification and it's enemies

[TMA_1]

Feel free to post if you do not believe in the scriptures, as well as the death and resurrection of christ. There is obviously going to be a barrier if you do post though, because you may worship or believe in a different thing, entity or subject.

The various churches can be summed up into three catagories. The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Protestant Church. Though there are docternal issues that are obviously false on either side, it seems that time has increased the stubborness and closed mindedness that we christians often have. What will it take for us as believers to unify? and to people who dont believe, what do you think it will take? I personally believe that the church will only be correctly unified during the second advent.

Also it seems that enemies of the church in this current age are so stealthy and camofluaged. There are the enemies that are negatives of us, who beleive everything we dont believe in, but there are also enemies that either believe in some things but not others, and even those who say they beleive in all the things but really dont. What do you fear is the worst enemy in this day and age?

[ordos45]

Ourselves.

[TMA_1]

good grief! lol this is so weird

the reason why is because I went up to talk to my dad about this, he knows the bible inside and out, and even translated and expressed it's meaning in thousands of note cards. He is cool with all of it basically.lol Anyways I asked him and he said the same thing. He said that even satan is not as powerful, because as christ said evil comes from within, and satan can only work on the outside. our sin nature is the greatest enemy. great insight man.

[Navaros]

TMA1: the worst enemy of the Church is definitely the members of the Church itself who are not true Christians at all, yet claim to believe in Christ. however, they do not really care what Christ says or obey what God commands of them. they just call themselves "Christian" because it seems fashionable to do so.

you TMA1, have proven yourself to be among these worst enemies of the Church, as have many others on this board.

[Anathema]

Would someone please delete Navs post before this goes out of hand?

[Caid Ivik]

Church is composed of many people, each with own good and bad sides. Some things are also rather unclear. For example, where would you put border between true worshipping and fanatical zealotism, which is sinful as well as ignorance, because it brings same results? I wouldn't say the Church has enemies. There are only some thinking ways, which can drive it out of a way. But that doesn't mean there were really anti-church intentions.

About enemies of unification, this is rather harder. We thought all was done in Second Council of Vaticano, but it looks like, that some people like our beloved archbishop, which most possibly overslept the philosophy of aggiornamento and still want a closed, sectaristic Church. Still we hear after Pope's masses things like "Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat".

[TMA_1]

its okay earthnuker, I have to learn not to turn into a jerk myself.

he does have a point too, think about it. If all of the church members do not believe in the core values that the bible teaches, or say they do but in reality they dont, then we have an empty and worthless global congregation. There is a prophesy about the final church that will exist before the second advent. It says that they will be neither hot nor cold. that the Lord wishes for them to be, because the worst kind of evil is that of having no character of ideals. Like a straw blowing in the wind.

[nemafakei]

The problem with organised religions is the near-inevitable switch from worship of the god to worship of the church - since it is agreed by almost all major religions that there is one god, and since most doctrines differ significantly, and the religious leaders contradict one another, the assumption that one leader or doctrine (of which there are many) has the correct interpretation is slim. Therefore, believers shuld take into account all possible answers to questions, and decide for themselves which interpretation fits most sensibly with their definition of 'God' - since it is clear that no two people have quite the same thing in mind when they talk about such an entity.

[SurlyPIG]

Ditto to Nema. I think it's an inevitability when it comes to organized religion, it just divides people because, instead of focusing on their similarities and uniting, people tend to focus on their differences and distance themselves from others. With matters like this, where both sides think the stakes are so high (ie eternal hell), segregation is inevitable.

[TMA_1]

hmm, I think you guys are using religion as a scape goat for something we do as humans. it is our nature not to unify. we need to factionalize and if need be, go completely alone. We are independant in many ways.In every single culture there is factionalism. Even in your guys' eyes you believe religion is divised by man, therefore it isnt religion but human nature. I believe though that christianity was divinely inspired and that because that is so, I have the correct path. many people dont like it to be so blunt, but its what so many people think, just never admit to say about what they believe.

[zamboe]

Wow, such a different opinions, I like that.

Some people here (nav specially) think and believe that church must be as an army, i.e., orders and commands are not possible to be discussed and should be followed without any kind of pre debate.

At least in Catholic Church, that's not the situation. I'd say the same for the first protestan churches too.

What some people see as segregation, separation within the Church is not really that, it's in fact just a sample of how diverse opinions can co-exist under the umbrella of the same believes, principles and credo, where the debate is permanent is how those principles should be applied and intrepreted under the fast pace changing world we have now.

I see that diversity more as church's asset than as a problem.

About TMA firts inquiry, I'd say that I see much more close a unification process between the Orthodox and Catholic Church and it is to be hoped that the Anglican Church (U.K.) might participate too, however consider that this process are a long run process, Pope JP II has already put the first stones for that unification, it's time to wait what the next Pope will do to continue.

[Caid Ivik]

The problem with organised religions is the near-inevitable switch from worship of the god to worship of the church - since it is agreed by almost all major religions that there is one god, and since most doctrines differ significantly, and the religious leaders contradict one another, the assumption that one leader or doctrine (of which there are many) has the correct interpretation is slim. Therefore, believers shuld take into account all possible answers to questions, and decide for themselves which interpretation fits most sensibly with their definition of 'God' - since it is clear that no two people have quite the same thing in mind when they talk about such an entity.

We all can agree there is a God, but not what He is and what He wants or provides. If we look on christian churches, we haven't this problem. But another problems arise, sometimes smaller, sometimes bigger. I wouldn't say we worship Church, we just stay on its teachings. These teachings can easily become sacred and formally unchangable, even if they have nothing with Bible (i.e.priest celibate). Here is the bad point, where many churches decide they cannot make a mistake and doom anyone who thinks other.

[Dante]

Why should you want to unify anyway? There's no way one thing could keep everyone happy.

[SurlyPIG]

Actually TMA I was saying that denominational segregation isn't a product of the religion but a general tendancy of humanity. If anything, one goal of religion is to encompass as many people as possible. 'Unite' if you prefer. The behaviour exhibited by the different churches is opposite.

[Acriku]

I think it is inevitable for people to branch into different specificities, and also too late for unification. To unify, one must conform. Which side will conform? Or they might achieve a compromise, but then again that only satisfies the physical conflict, what does that do to the spiritual aspects? You give up what you believe to be right only to reach unification. So, I think it isn't possible to maintain what you believe in, and reach unification. Are people willing to give up what they believe in? I think not, yet.

[Dunenewt]

The various churches can be summed up into three catagories. The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Protestant Church.

Where does the Anglican church fit in?

[Hawat]

The two western churches are now facing the problems that shortly after the "triumph" of christianity and the creation of religion started: The Church turned into an instrument of power.

As long as they don't reform the churches starting with the foundation an unification is senseless. If they would completely focus on the original aim of a church cooperation and understanding wouldn't be that difficult.

[Acriku]

Another thing that quirks my mind, is why do church-goers want unification? Were they not warned that unification would be the doer of the antichrist and all the world goes into flames?

[Hawat]

I confess that i can't remember a passage saying that. ( I must add that i never read the whole bible... im still reading :) )

Do you know where that is written, acriku ? Im really curious...

[Acriku]

Check Revelations, it's in one of those chapters. I don't know which though.

[Anathema]

Another thing that quirks my mind, is why do church-goers want unification? Were they not warned that unification would be the doer of the antichrist and all the world goes into flames?

Wasn't that about the unification under an actual state instead of a religious body, in this case church?

[zamboe]

Another thing that quirks my mind, is why do church-goers want unification? Were they not warned that unification would be the doer of the antichrist and all the world goes into flames?

On the contrary, The Church of Jesus Christ is expected to be united at that time.

[Caid Ivik]

Check Revelations, it's in one of those chapters. I don't know which though.

Mind that there is written about giant army, not a Church. Fact is, that Jesus gave the "key" to Peter, as he ment him to be his "Earth ambassador". I don't mean by it other churches try to be against His will. All those schizmatic activities were caused by human errors, same human work can unify it back.

[Edric O]

Speaking of the end of the world, one thing I cannot understand is why do some Christians zealously try to prevent the prophecies about the End Times to come true. If the prophecies come true, then the Second Coming is near. And that's a GOOD thing. The Christian end of the world, as a whole, is in fact a GOOD thing... So why are we afraid of it again?

Also, I think we will only achieve unity of the Church when we have washed away the corruption that has infested Christianity ever since emperor Constantine turned the Church into a tool of the State.

[Acriku]

I'm ok with christians waiting for the end, but I'd rather not have them try to speed things up a bit if you know what I mean.