Forgiving God?

[Aeris]

God is supposed to be almighty and forgiving, right? Well, then why is it that there is a Hell? We get this extremely short life to decide whether or not we will have eternal pain? That sounds...great. Also, do you believe that you will go to Hell if you simply are not allowed access to a bible or another holy book? And if you don't believe in God and are otherwise a good person, would you go to Hell?

[exatreide]

If you dont belive in god, and your Gahndi you will be roasting over a open fire in hell while demons spread barbacue sauce on your carcaus.

IMO gods jelous becouse you dont belive in him, and he wants to punish you.

Thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

[Egeides]

How I see it, it is that some humans do not wish to be good, simply. Believing in God is the best way to get there. But whattever the path you take, you'll need to be sufficiently good at heart to take a path that will be even better, that will be the path of perfection (wether or not you achieve it completely). If you're not good enough, you wont be able to take this after-death path.

The same reason a mafioso trying to be good may have quite some trouble if he doesn't have the will to be good like this... The same reason a greedy person wont be good just by saying she wishes to. You cannot transform her inner person, only she can.

[exatreide]

Their exists no seperation between gods and men one blends softly casuly into the other....

;)

[Egeides]

What do you mean ExAtreides? Were you saying this as a metaphore or with a more complete concept behind?

[ken124578]

He meant:

a) you believe in god and go to 'heaven' when you die. ::) ^-^

b) you lack the faith in believing in god and go off burning forever in hell. ::) ^-^

[Acriku]

It makes one reach the conclusion that Satan is god. And god is Satan. god shows his good side with this cheery heaven, and then puts on the horned mask as Satan and says damn ye all to hell! He's a duplicitous lil bastard ain't he? ;)

[ken124578]

God and satan were IMO made up to calm the people of the past, or to give an explanation.

It makes one reach the conclusion that Satan is god. And god is Satan. god shows his good side with this cheery heaven, and then puts on the horned mask as Satan and says damn ye all to hell! He's a duplicitous lil bastard ain't he?

::) ^-^

[Caid Ivik]

God is supposed to be almighty and forgiving, right? Well, then why is it that there is a Hell? We get this extremely short life to decide whether or not we will have eternal pain? That sounds...great. Also, do you believe that you will go to Hell if you simply are not allowed access to a bible or another holy book? And if you don't believe in God and are otherwise a good person, would you go to Hell?

Jesus many times confronted a sect named Pharsees, which were hard-core believers, haven't sinned, but forgot to make also some good. Any good person (in God's view good) can enter the Heaven. Altough non-believing is in my opinion a flaw, if you did more good then evil, then you are welcomed even if you're an atheist.

[Edric O]

If you're asking why there is a hell... tell me, what kind of heaven would heaven be if people like Hitler were allowed in?

You know, it seems to me people these days are lazier, more arrogant and hypocritical than ever. I'm sorry, but it seems to me many of you atheists act ridiculously childish when it comes to responsibility. What you would want God to do, basically, is to give everyone a free ride to heaven, no matter what they did in life. In order for God to be "good" in your eyes, He would have to take all responsibility off your shoulders and guarantee you a great afterlife no matter what kind of person you are. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You are not children. Stop acting like it. The decisions you take in life ALWAYS affect your future, and I'm not just talking about the afterlife. Get used to it.

God is good, but first of all God is just. The exceptionally good people go to heaven anyway. The not-so-good ones compensate through belief, and God forgives them.

But God cannot forgive you if you don't ask Him to. That's the point of belief: "Ask me to forgive you, and I will. Is that so hard?"

[Aeris]

If you're asking why there is a hell... tell me, what kind of heaven would heaven be if people like Hitler were allowed in?

You know, it seems to me people these days are lazier, more arrogant and hypocritical than ever. I'm sorry, but it seems to me many of you atheists act ridiculously childish when it comes to responsibility. What you would want God to do, basically, is to give everyone a free ride to heaven, no matter what they did in life. In order for God to be "good" in your eyes, He would have to take all responsibility off your shoulders and guarantee you a great afterlife no matter what kind of person you are. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You are not children. Stop acting like it. The decisions you take in life ALWAYS affect your future, and I'm not just talking about the afterlife. Get used to it.

God is good, but first of all God is just. The exceptionally good people go to heaven anyway. The not-so-good ones compensate through belief, and God forgives them.

But God cannot forgive you if you don't ask Him to. That's the point of belief: "Ask me to forgive you, and I will. Is that so hard?"

Well, the fact that people like Hitler should not be let into Heaven makes me lean towards the theory of reincarnation...but slightly different. Like the Hindus think, perhaps you keep going back to earth until you get things right. Just a thought.

When you said "you atheists," was it you in general, or specifically directed at someone? I am not an atheist...I do believe in something higher than us, but am still puzzling out the specifics (even though there really aren't any specifics to speak of).

And about God being "just," wouldn't justice include punishment without forgiveness? Unless you're talking about a higher justice that is more advanced than our form.

[ordos45]

This post will be modified when I have the time to look up the appropriate verse...and to remind me to do so.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, the fact that people like Hitler should not be let into Heaven makes me lean towards the theory of reincarnation...but slightly different. Like the Hindus think, perhaps you keep going back to earth until you get things right. Just a thought.

And about God being "just," wouldn't justice include punishment without forgiveness? Unless you're talking about a higher justice that is more advanced than our form.

How much He will forgive in the final judgement? How we will show we REALLY want. Hindus don't think we need to do such. In fact they prevent helping others, because it would hurt their own karma. And to make this egoistical religion even worse, you have nearly no responsibility, all you need is just to be favored by god ruling in your life-time (which also I think isn't that short as you think; 70-90 years, that's more than a few, I lived for about 17 and half years and I am nearly tired ;D ). We christians don't believe in reincarnation. We have one chance, then just God's or other people's love can help us. Like testimony about Lazarus in Lk 16,19, which I've recently posted.

[Elite47]

Edric0(or any other Christian):

You say God is for humanity. I am an atheist, and I am also for humanity(although its not my life goal). You say that Christianity was not meant to 'explain' anything, but to teach love and harmony. Can't you be full of love and be extremely harmonius without believing in God? Why would you need God to show you these things or make you wanto to do them. He doesnt deserve that! he does not live with us, talk with us or deal with anything that we deal with. But the people around us do. We can show them respect, love, helpfulness etc... without God, and if u believe in souls... well dont you think u have enough soul to make your dreams come true how you want them to turn out? make your own future. Do u feel alone without him? without that 'friend' that uve never seen or spoken to. Does he help you when you need it? What if you were unconscious laying on the train tracks... who would help you? God(i see it now, his huge hand reaching from the sky and picking you up)? If anyone, it would be a fellow human being who came to your rescue. What did God do to make u love him sooo much? hes never done anything personally for you. Ive never done anthing personally for you. Why dont u love me? Oh i bet its because im not gonna bring you to heaven when you die, nor will i send you to Hell. And guess what, ill probably do more good deeds FOR YOU in my life, then god will ever do for you.

anyways, its early, i started rambling... GZA's outie.

[Caid Ivik]

This is a word of nationalist. You love people around you. You respect them and tolerate them by something we call a secular humanism. But are you able to love other persons, to pray for their better life, altough you live on the other side of planet, you never will see them and you even not point it to someone specified? If you do so, then you aren't an atheist. Call it God or not, but something is leading you and He is proud on you.

He doesn't send anyone to Hell. Those people, which fell there, wanted it by their acts in life, for which they are responsible. Evil is a lack of goodness, like darkness is just a lack of light. That "light" we call God.

[sneezer3]

To answer Aeris's question.

God is just.

Psalms 89:14

Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

God don't want anyone to go to hell.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God already went out of his way to provide us a way out.

John 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[Elite47]

God already went out of his way to provide us a way out.

this is why i hate christianity the most of all religions. He went out of his way(BTW, all he had to do was snap his fingers right? that doesnt seem like going out of the way to me ::) ::)) to create a 'way out' for us. LOL. you christians think youre so spiritually superior and you think your gonna be rewarded one day. I really hope to your God you didnt waste your while life being a christian for nothing. When God come to 'save' you, thats when you can rub it in my face that i was wrong. but he won't save you. You sound like a weak little being that hates life. 'save me jesus,save me!" you cant face reality. God is not reality. If u find a need for God in your life, fine, some people need that support. I for one don't, i fel strong enough as it is. I dont need that asshole who makes rules and then says you'll burn in Hell for not following them WELL THATS BULLSHIT. Why live your life for something that wont make a difference, when you can divert that time and energy to a cause more worthwhile. Figure things out by your damn self. I just dont know what i can say to make any christian see my view, its like your brainwashed. you use the nonfactual bible to your defense everytime, you should be using reality and quit living in a dream world. Make decisions that have an actual effect on something. I think most christians shose it as their religion because they're missing something and they cant figure it out. point is, something isnt all there.

theres another religion rant. Gza's outie.

[sneezer3]

this is why i hate christianity the most of all religions. He went out of his way(BTW, all he had to do was snap his fingers right? that doesnt seem like going out of the way to me ::) ::))

There was no other way but the cross, as sin requires a payment and there *must* be a payment.

to create a 'way out' for us. LOL. you christians think youre so spiritually superior and you think your gonna be rewarded one day.

Some might but i don't, you go in a sinner you come out a sinner saved by grace.

I really hope to your God you didnt waste your while life being a christian for nothing. When God come to 'save' you, thats when you can rub it in my face that i was wrong. but he won't save you. You sound like a weak little being that hates life. 'save me jesus,save me!" you cant face reality. God is not reality.

I wouldn't rather pay my own punishment for my sin, would you?

If u find a need for God in your life, fine, some people need that support. I for one don't, i fel strong enough as it is. I dont need that asshole who makes rules and then says you'll burn in Hell for not following them WELL THATS BULLSHIT. Why live your life for something that wont make a difference,

It will make a diffrance in life. an everlasting diffrance.

when you can divert that time and energy to a cause more worthwhile. Figure things out by your damn self. I just dont know what i can say to make any christian see my view, its like your brainwashed. you use the nonfactual bible to your defense everytime, you should be using reality and quit living in a dream world.

It isn't a dream world, there are many facts that prove God exists, Saturn is loseing its rings for example.

[Elite47]

Well sure if i *KNEW* god existed like i *KNOW* my mother is a woman, i would be saying that too. To you, you *KNOW* God exists. I cannot change that and i dont think anyone else can either. Go ahead and believe at the expense of yourself, just as long as it doesnt interfere with me.

If i cant win the arguement, ill settle for less than what i shot for. I just want christians to admit God does not exist FACTUALLY. You *think* and *hope* he's real, but admit it is not 100% true that he exists.

i Dont think 100% God doesnt exist because that would be total stupidity like what some of you are going through. i believe like 98% God doesnt exist. i cant say he doesnt exist period 100% because that is not a fact and then i would be just as ignorant as you that are hardcore believers.

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Quote from: GZAkiller on Today at 09:27:57

There was no other way but the cross, as sin requires a payment and there *must* be a payment.

Why do u let God decide what a sin is or isn't. Are you an unintelligent baby? No , so why can't you make your own decisions?

Quote:

Some might but i don't, you go in a sinner you come out a sinner saved by grace.

Why does God get to forgive you? Why cant you forgive yourself, or the person to whom you sinned etc...

Quote:

I wouldn't rather pay my own punishment for my sin, would you?

You cant take responsability for your own actions?? Who says you have to be punished by God/Satan for your sin? I have morals, i feel bad when i do something bad and then as a result i learn from my actions/mistakes. Why dont you live your life so that you can get maximum results NOW, instead of maximum results when you die. BY that i mean why dont you help a million people for the sake of helping a million people instead of helping them so you are a good boy that gets to go to heaven.

Quote:

It will make a diffrance in life. an everlasting diffrance.

...and then you woke up and realized you were having a dream.

Quote:

It isn't a dream world, there are many facts that prove God exists, Saturn is loseing its rings for example.

I saw a flying object, must have been a UFO, alien must exist. I hard some fat guy in my chimney so santa must exist. I found 10 bucks under my pillow when i lost my tooth, the toothfairy must have came for me.

[Edric O]

Why would you need God to show you these things or make you wanto to do them. He doesnt deserve that! he does not live with us, talk with us or deal with anything that we deal with. But the people around us do. We can show them respect, love, helpfulness etc... without God.

So, first of all, you're saying that we shouldn't love anyone except if we get something in return? That's really disgusting...

Of course, that's not really the case with God anyway. Assuming He exists, He is the one that gave us our lives in the first place. We owe everything - our entire existence - to Him. Saying that He somehow "didn't do anything for us" is beyond absurd...

You say God is for humanity. I am an atheist, and I am also for humanity(although its not my life goal). You say that Christianity was not meant to 'explain' anything, but to teach love and harmony. Can't you be full of love and be extremely harmonius without believing in God?

On an individual level, of course you can. But let's look at the big picture now. The world is full of evil, violence, hatred and destruction. When it comes to living in love and harmony, we humans by ourselves keep failing miserabely.

And besides, you just said it yourself. Humanity is not your life's goal. But you see, it IS my life's goal. I live for Mankind, and I die for Mankind.

If u believe in souls... well dont you think u have enough soul to make your dreams come true how you want them to turn out? make your own future.

Ah... vanity. As old as the world itself, and still we do not learn from our mistakes. This road leads to corruption, selfishness, and death.

Do u feel alone without him? without that 'friend' that uve never seen or spoken to. Does he help you when you need it? What if you were unconscious laying on the train tracks... who would help you? God(i see it now, his huge hand reaching from the sky and picking you up)? If anyone, it would be a fellow human being who came to your rescue.

And that, GZA, is exactly what God wants. Human beings living together in love and brotherhood, and helping each other in need. When a man saves another man's life, that is what pleases God.

What did God do to make u love him sooo much? hes never done anything personally for you. Ive never done anthing personally for you. Why dont u love me?

Oh, but I do, GZA. It shows that you haven't actually read the Bible (as you've told me yourself).

A man asked Jesus once to tell him the most important commandment of all. To sum up all of Christianity in a few short words:

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

- Mark 12:28-31

You see, Jesus said that the most important things of all are to love God and your fellow man. To love all Humanity unconditionally, just as you love God. To show love and compassion not only for your friends, but for total strangers as well, and even your enemies.

[ken124578]

I waited a long time for this:

Edric 0, how do you know that jesus had existed? it's quite easy to write a book, add some real characters from history in it and say that everything really had happened.

btw. don't tell me that the reason why they exist is because i am standing here today, it can lead to any 'god'.

[Elite47]

For now i only have time to respond to this:

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Quote:

If u believe in souls... well dont you think u have enough soul to make your dreams come true how you want them to turn out? make your own future.

Ah... vanity. As old as the world itself, and still we do not learn from our mistakes. This road leads to corruption, selfishness, and death.

_____

And here we have two 16 year olds(im sure your 16,or 17) debating about religion. the main difference between us other than religion is that you've come to a conclusion so early about life, and think that really IS it. I know quite a bit, but except that i really honestly dont know that much, especially not as much as i think i do. You say that acheiving and shaping your own path is vain, or leads to vanity. that road leads to corruption you say. Well I'd have to say believing in God does not take you any other path. he doesnt physically get involved with you once in your life, so whether you believe or not you still shape your own pathway. I gotta go now but ill be back to finsih.

[Aeris]

How much He will forgive in the final judgement? How we will show we REALLY want. Hindus don't think we need to do such. In fact they prevent helping others, because it would hurt their own karma. And to make this egoistical religion even worse, you have nearly no responsibility, all you need is just to be favored by god ruling in your life-time (which also I think isn't that short as you think; 70-90 years, that's more than a few, I lived for about 17 and half years and I am nearly tired ;D ). We christians don't believe in reincarnation. We have one chance, then just God's or other people's love can help us. Like testimony about Lazarus in Lk 16,19, which I've recently posted.

70-90 years is barely anything if you're comparing it to eternity. I do believe that that is VERY short. And what about the people that die young? It's just too bad for them?

[Aeris]

Well sure if i *KNEW* god existed like i *KNOW* my mother is a woman, i would be saying that too. To you, you *KNOW* God exists. I cannot change that and i dont think anyone else can either. Go ahead and believe at the expense of yourself, just as long as it doesnt interfere with me.

If i cant win the arguement, ill settle for less than what i shot for. I just want christians to admit God does not exist FACTUALLY. You *think* and *hope* he's real, but admit it is not 100% true that he exists.

i Dont think 100% God doesnt exist because that would be total stupidity like what some of you are going through. i believe like 98% God doesnt exist. i cant say he doesnt exist period 100% because that is not a fact and then i would be just as ignorant as you that are hardcore believers.

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Quote from: GZAkiller on Today at 09:27:57

I do agree with you on the point that we cannot be 100% sure of God...at least I can't. God, for me, is a symbol of hope, a point in the right direction. And that, alone, is enough for me.

[Dude_Doc]

I have thought about the punishment, the "Hell". I was thinking that hell is like a temporary prison. The more evil you do in this universe, the longer you'll stay in hell. I don't think anyone deserves to be in hell for eternity.

Anyways, mankind is the big reason. Imagine a world where no one is willing to do anything to anyone. We would still fight battles with sticks and stones, and our "universal" science would tell us that Earth is the center of the universe. Yes, Edric is right, we owe God everything. He created us. There is no greater might than creation. Besides, the world wouldn't be a pretty place if you woke up tomorrow and discovered that every person was gone. The induvidual will die if he/she lives alone in a world. The first days would of course be the happiest days of our lives because we can do whatever we want, there is no one to stop us. Then comes sorrow. You become alone. You die slowly from inside. This is why fellow men and women is a nessesary part of everyone's life. The world would be in chaos if we never helped each other, and "humanity" as we know it would have died quickly.