IS there a god?

[Edric O]

You must remember the bible is the only "proof" that any of this ever happened.

So there were no actual founder(s) of Christianity and a few thousand Christians just popped out of thin air all over the Roman Empire for no apparent reason? ::)

However, there is ample evidence against the Bible.

Such as... what, exactly?

[Apollyon]

And also something had to start that Big Bang.

Not so. It is feasible to say that, as the universe defines time and the universe is defined by time, that there has never been a time before the universe - thus the universe has always been.

Also your statement must also apply to God. If something had to star the big bang, then surely by the same logic something must have "started" God?

[DukeLeto]

However, there is ample evidence against the Bible.

Such as... what, exactly?

Such as:

-Many cultures have never recorded a "Great Flood".

-No evidence of the existence of Jesus OR the "apostles" has ever been found.

[Acriku]

Remember that "Satan" was at that time known as an Angel "guarding" Earth (hence why God didn't tell them about Satan). It got power hungry and decived Eve to take the fruit. Adam was told that they could eat all the food, except for that one tree. It was the responsibility of Adam (and Eve) to not eat from that tree.

Didn't Satan rebel before the Eden project? And if God didn't know how power hungry Satan was, he isn't omniscient then. So he has no excuse for not telling Adam nor Eve about him.

Suffering was created by humans and Satan, with will independent on God (altough our free will was created by Him). And also something had to start that Big Bang. Maybe even no one even found the etymological reason of the word "God".

Haha, the old "everything bad is from Satan, everything good is from God." No one seems to get old of it hehe.

So there were no actual founder(s) of Christianity and a few thousand Christians just popped out of thin air all over the Roman Empire for no apparent reason?

So the founders of Wicca are proof that they are telling the truth? How about the founders of Islam? Or the founders of the greek gods? People are weak, and fear death, give them something to pass death and collect their 200 dollars and they will hold onto it tightly.

Such as... what, exactly?

There is proof against the Bible being the Word of God, but that is a different matter.

[Apollyon]

Such as:

-Many cultures have never recorded a "Great Flood".

-No evidence of the existence of Jesus OR the "apostles" has ever been found.

1. Actually some cultures have, the Mayans for example and some others I believe.

2. Yes there has; Archaelogists found a registry detailing "Crucifiees" and on this was the name Jesus and his of origin marked as Nazareth.

Despite that, I'm still atheist ;)

[Acriku]

1. Actually some cultures have, the Mayans for example and some others I believe.

2. Yes there has; Archaelogists found a registry detailing "Crucifiees" and on this was the name Jesus and his of origin marked as Nazareth.

Despite that, I'm still atheist

1. There have been records of 'local' floods by other cultures, and no way to prove that it actually was a global flood since you would need full observation to deduce that.

2. Jesus was a very popular name, and there could have been hundreds of Jesus' from Nazareth.

[Apollyon]

That is subjective. My point was that Duke's points are in no way evidence against the bible.

[Acriku]

I was just pointing out that it wasn't proof *for* the bible either :)

[Apollyon]

Ok. I didn't mean it to be. I don't believe in it myself.

[Warlord Ripskar]

Most holy books claim to be "The word of God".

If that is the case god is a schizo.

Books are written by men, most religeous people admit that the thier holy book is written by a man or a collection of men. Thus you have an interpretation at second hand. Why should the Bible be considered any more authentic than the Qu'ran or the book of Mormon?

The chaos that the universe openly displays and can be scientifically proven to display shows that there cannot be one creator therefore assuming that the world was created as such there must be multiple creators with no overall plan and a large degree of dispute.

Why for example if there is one god would this all powerful being concentrate his entire attention on a single flea ridden tribe in the most barren spot available?

If the story of the Ark were true how did the current dispersal of life occur?

The existance of god cannot be proven, nor for that matter can the non existance of god so the question is mute.

An agnostic.

[Davidu]

Holy book tend to catch the essence of the religion they reffer to.

As the religion comes from a god, it is normal to consider the book with all the teachings of that religion "the word of God".

Even if it is written by humans is reffers to a god.

I'm more atheistic than religious, therefore my ideas might seem strange to you.

What I like about religion is that usually preaches peace and love among people. Unfortunatelly some of the fiercest wars were made in the name of religion...

[Acriku]

Also, the weight of such amounts of water would certainly show enormous affects to the crust of the earth, as the Wisconsinian Glaciers did and they were seeable, but the ice is .222% of the amount of water needed, so the actual amount of water needed (4.525x1009 km3 of water) would show obvious and large effects to the crust.

The Noah's Flood is rediculously flawed, espeically when the bible gives the dimensions. 1) How did all of the animals from all of the continents come to Noah? 2) How did they all fit in their? The number of species of insects alone is astounding. 3) How did Noah and his family feed them all in the 40 days and 40 nights? 4) How did Noah keep the species from eating eachother during the voyage? 5) If the Noah's Flood is true, then the amount of water would go past 2/3 into the atmosphere, pushing the elements out into space, which would result in less oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen! 6) How could the animals be so diverse from only 4000 years? 7) Also, how could the population be as it is in 4000 years? Considering the many wars, plagues, viruses, bacteria, etc and not to mention having no vegetation or food on the earth because it was destroyed by the flood.

[Davidu]

hmmm.. Divine intervention??? ::)

[sneezer3]

Atheists have theories of the origin of species, I'm curious why you think otherwise? There are christians who study atheism and/or evolution and become atheists, what does this prove? It can go either way. Crying out to god before dying is a common thing, even among atheists because we panic when we know death is coming soon. We don't want it to end, we want something more. We don't want to die. When we panic, all reasoning leaves the brain, and we cry out to god for help. We being those who did it. This proves nothing.

All reasoning does not leave us its just the "what if your right and i'm going to hell?" that makes a person really cansider more then anything at the last moment, also people have been no to scream that there going to hell" and they feel the flames right before they die, i'm not makeing this up i can quote of some famus people if needed.

Atheists have theories of the origin of species, I'm curious why you think otherwise?

yeah that says we poped into existance from no were with tons of holes(will not go into that look and my post page 11 evolution/big bang thread)

The more complexty the more likelyer it is there was a designer.

This is pure speculation of course. Your uneducated opinion. Complexity does not beg a designer, many simple compounds come together to form complex molecules all the time - basic chemistry - any of this can be naturally produced.

Wrong. that is inless you can explan how two cells can find each other out of a huge world. how an archer fish got such an aim, and lastly how that fish came about in that certin way.

[sneezer3]

One at a time.

The Noah's Flood is rediculously flawed, espeically when the bible gives the dimensions.

kewl, please explan.

1) How did all of the animals from all of the continents come to Noah?

they din't he came to them

2) How did they all fit in their? The number of species of insects alone is astounding.

It was a huge boat.

300 Cubits long 50 Cubits wide and 30 cubits wide.

A cubit is about as far from your elbow to fingertips which generaly is 16 inches

btw. read the story here

3) How did Noah and his family feed them all in the 40 days and 40 nights?

the food was on the ship

4) How did Noah keep the species from eating eachother during the voyage?

cages

5) If the Noah's Flood is true, then the amount of water would go past 2/3 into the atmosphere, pushing the elements out into space, which would result in less oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen!

Yes ever heard of it being higher then and the air presure twice what it is now? Video three the hovine theory. he belives the flood tore some stuff off into outer space which is also scriptural.

6) How could the animals be so diverse from only 4000 years?

I don't understand the question.

7) Also, how could the population be as it is in 4000 years? Considering the many wars, plagues, viruses, bacteria, etc and not to mention having no vegetation or food on the earth because it was destroyed by the flood.

About 7 people constantly multyplying plus all of that you would it up with the current population.

On the other hand, if we were here three million years were'd all the bones go to? they have a hard time finding them these days.(when diging for fossils)

Also, the weight of such amounts of water would certainly show enormous affects to the crust of the earth, as the Wisconsinian Glaciers did and they were seeable, but the ice is .222% of the amount of water needed, so the actual amount of water needed (4.525x1009 km3 of water) would show obvious and large effects to the crust.

Yes good math. and the earth is cracked which the evolutionests will tell you came from a large content Pangaea which you have just made a good point for me.

[Acriku]

*fwak!* *thump* You have just witnessed a dramatization of Acriku hitting himself with the keyboard and falling down on the floor senseless. Because Sneezer has droven him to it.

All reasoning does not leave us its just the "what if your right and i'm going to hell?" that makes a person really cansider more then anything at the last moment, also people have been no to scream that there going to hell" and they feel the flames right before they die, i'm not makeing this up i can quote of some famus people if needed.

All reasoning does leave the brain. Think of yourself in a soldier's shoes. It's war. Explosions just exploded off to your right while you lay in the trenches. Your buddy is looking overhead the trench to see if anybody is retreating. While you blink your buddy falls into your lap without a head. Panic rises. The reality of the war just set in. You feel the likelihood of death coming onto you. You know you are going to die, and you are scared out of your mind of it. You being an atheist. Your childhood beliefs rise up and consume your mind and you don't want this to be the end. You want it to go on! You cry out in panic: God please help me! Before you finish the sentence you fall down escaping consciousness adding to the heap of decaying matter.

When you panic, all reasoning leaves the brain. That's common knowledge. You may jump out of the trenches just breaking down, getting shot because you didn't have the reasoning to stay put. You don't seriously consider god while panicing, it just doesn't happen.

yeah that says we poped into existance from no were with tons of holes(will not go into that look and my post page 11 evolution/big bang thread)

We didn't pop into existence. We evolved. Do try to keep up with the rest of the class.

Wrong. that is inless you can explan how two cells can find each other out of a huge world. how an archer fish got such an aim, and lastly how that fish came about in that certin way.

This shows just right here how much science you know, or atleast how much biology and chemistry you know. More accurately, don't know. Hydrogen and oxygen are not cells...they are elements composed of atoms. You are keeping the class behind. In this huge world, oh where oh where will two elements find eachother at last and embrace eachother in electrons? Please.

And if you are going to link me somewhere, atleast show me where the information about the archer fish is. I had to read that crap just to get to more crap that you wanted me to read. Most creationists start with their beliefs, then search for something to help it. It isn't hard to find that. What scientists do with their theories is that they start from a clean slate, and state the evidence with explanations, and form a conclusion. They do not start with their theory, find everything in this world that somehow in whatever way helps it and displays it. Because, that is bad science.

kewl, please explan.

I'd love to. The more you get specific about a particular story, the more it has to disprove it. The more general it is, that is the less information in the story, the less it has to disprove it, making it harder and sometimes impossible. When you add the dimensions of the ark, you can see how big it is and test it. Without that information, we would have had to have found a size that could work, and say it was that or something bigger.

they din't he came to them

Strange, I was told by everyone (since I don't have a bible in my house, but cool books with picture) the contrary, even all of the cartoons have them lined up and ready to board ;). But let's assume he did. So how did Noah get to the animals all the way inland? Those would be interesting journeys. Gathering every single species all over the world is a huge task, one only fit for Hercules :). Does the bible speak of such a journey around the world gathering such species?

It was a huge boat.

300 Cubits long 50 Cubits wide and 30 cubits wide.

A cubit is about as far from your elbow to fingertips which generaly is 16 inches

btw. read the story here

Huge boat? You would need a huge-ass boat to fit every single species into there! 300 cubits is not enough at all, for the amount of species in this world. I can have so much to say tomorrow, where I will be alert and ponderable! :)

the food was on the ship

This just made your problem worse. Now you need room for all of that food you need for every species for 40 days and 40 nights. Not to mention how do you give it to them? Noah would be missing hundreds of thousands of species so they starve to death, because he isn't superfast. And, he doesn't know the food of every species, some are very selective, and has to be in the right environments, like eucalyptic leaves. Koalas need those to survive, and fresh with water to hydrate them. How did Noah have those aboard? Did he grow eucalyptic trees now? Another thing to bring up is, how did he get rid of the waste made by all of the animals? Was there a toilet tnat flushes out the bottom of the ark? ::)

I don't understand the question.

Ok, I'm fine with that. To explain it, all of the animals had to have lived in the same environment on the ark. Noah didn't make a miniature ecosystem for each species. This alone says that it couldn't be possible. So, after the flood ended, these species get off. Now, how in 4000 years can you get diverse animals that live in exact and scrict living conditions, and cannot survive anywhere else, as well as how can you get species adapted to their environment largely in just 4000 years? It isn't possible.

About 7 people constantly multyplying plus all of that you would it up with the current population.

On the other hand, if we were here three million years were'd all the bones go to? they have a hard time finding them these days.(when diging for fossils)

Reproduction is not constant. And viability is not constant, since many can die before ever reaching puberty. Your "theory" is based on false data most likely, although we have to see any of it, so I will be content, and your theory is bending everything you say to fit your theory.

Where did all the bones go to? Oh I don't know, in the hands of an archaeologist? How about a lot not yet found? The earth is huge, and the archaeologists are not Hercules, so they have to be constrained by time, and funding. They do not have a hard time finding them these days, this is the second time you've said this. Why in the world would you think so? Did you see Jurassic Park and think that is the only discovery every few years? They are finding more fossils everyday, even children(novice yet ambitious paleontologists/archaeologists) come upon discoveries. You have no idea what is going on.

Yes good math. and the earth is cracked which the evolutionests will tell you came from a large content Pangaea which you have just made a good point for me.

Earth is cracked, ok. Tectonic plates no doubt. Pangaea was an effect of the tectonic plates, which is supported by an abundance of evidence such as rare fossils of plant and animal have been found in the coasts of South America and the coasts of Africa - the same fossils.

[SurlyPIG]

Well said Acriku, and might I add that it is actually extremely rare for fossils to form, as the natural cycle of life and conservation is very good at breaking down all deceased biomatter, bones included. Fossils require very special circumstances to form.

[Scrinlord]

true!

[Edric O]

How many times must I remind you that the evolutionism vs. creationism argument is NOT the same as atheism vs. Christianity?

I must have explained it a hundred times how evolution and God can perfectly co-exist, yet no one ever listens!

[stefanhendriks]

to me :

void main()
{
 bool GOD_Exists=NULL;

 if (someone can prove me he/she does exist)
  GOD_Exists=true;
 else
  GOD_Exists=false;

}

'prove' is in this case, real prove. Something i can touch, see, smell, hear. Act uppon, maybe talk to.

[Acriku]

But the thing is, you can't prove God because he requires faith, and that is how you get his grace.

[sneezer3]

i'l reply to acriku's post a little latter.

'prove' is in this case, real prove. Something i can touch, see, smell, hear. Act uppon, maybe talk to.

True you can't touch, see, smell, Jesus, but we can now he is real from evidence of the Bible.

The Bible has been proven right Historically Geographicly Astronomically and Scientifically.

How many times must I remind you that the evolutionism vs. creationism argument is NOT the same as atheism vs. Christianity?

I must have explained it a hundred times how evolution and God can perfectly co-exist, yet no one ever listens!

Matthew 19:4

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Edric in Genesis it says God created the earth in seven days. do you take God at his word or take the "philosophy" and "vain deceit" of man Colossians 2:8

Creation and your god can co-exist but we don't have the same God, You have a very dumb god to use evolution and such suffering. Mine did it right the first time with Adem and Eve in seven days. Else you don't have the God of the Bible.

[Anathema]

Kirk, Edric has stated his point regarding that multiple times, there is really no point in trying to start it up again.

And it is true that many of the things written in the bible have been proven accurate, but it has by no means been proven scientificly true, or false.

[stefanhendriks]

I think that any 'god' for any kind of religion at the end comes down to what we all probably want. 'To live in peace and prosperity' (did i spell that right?).

Probably some things in the Bible have been proved true, but i think as many has been proven otherwise. Lets bring up that story about Moses... split the sea, i want to see that scientificly proven.

I do not believe in the fact that there is some higher power, controlling things that i cannot. In fact, i think that people who do believe in that are actually giving the 'things that happen but not caused by themselves' a name. Just like people call something 'luck', or 'coinsendence'. Such things do not exist, these things are 'made up' by people.

Things happen, for a reason. There should always be a way to explain this reason, wether it is physicly or scientificly right. I do not exclude sprituality, although i am quite sceptic towards this. Mostly scientific facts are found around these subjects.

I also think that people want to secure 'time after death' by a form of religion. While i still wonder if there is such a thing 'after death', lots of people already prepare themselves... for heaven (or hell?).

Facinating is that the rule 'energy never gets lost' is aplyable to our body's. We generate an amount of energy, therefor i wonder what happen with that energy when some person dies.

Anyway, i am getting offtopic, just my 2cnts