Creation by God / Big Bang Theory

[Inoculator9]

Lol, thats ironic ;D

But the people who were writing the Bible were filled with religious zeal and devotion, that can give way to exagerating things to reflect better on their faith. A big dragon has more affect then a mildly large lizard.

[Scrinlord]

But if you take the bible seriously, it was not necessarily a person writing down their own thoughts and feelings. it was the Word of God being written by a human hand. it was not the human thoughts, but the thoughts of God

[Inoculator9]

Then why didn't God just zap the Bible into existence? I got to a Catholic school and their opinions are just the opposite. If it were decided unanimosly that God himself wrote the Bible then they would have to think up explainations for the contradictions. As long as they can say humans wrote it themselves, human error can still be argued when refering to errors in the Bible.

[Acriku]

With the contradictions in mind, it is hard to say that the Bible was written by God.

[Scrinlord]

It was the Word of God, but we cannot think in the same terms as God can. He is infinit, we are not. He is eternal, we arnt. He knows all, we know nothing.

I attribute most of the contridictions in the Bible to the fact that different books were written at different times, and that different things needed to be said to get his point accross. I believe that a lot of things in the bible are more of parables than 100% fact, because i dont think we, as the human race, can accept 100% fact.

and if the books of the bible WERE written by human thoughts, then I believe that they were at the very least inspired heavily by God.

[Nyarlathotep]

That still doesn't explain dinosaurs IMHO. But that may just be me...

[Inoculator9]

Then why didn't he change the rest? If God is like how he is described, I think he wouldn't be so stupid that he would risk the future of his people by contradicting himself when he could just change them. And if God is infinite then he would have been able to say all the things at once, because he would know the situation in the future and the past.

[Scrinlord]

HE could yes, but we would be unable to comprehend it, so he does not do that. he could change history, but he gave us free will, and changing history would short circut that. God is capable of it, but He would not do it, because we would not get it.

and by the way, what kind of contridictions are you refering to?

[Acriku]

Oh there are many contradictions, and I will post websites pertaining to them tomorrow, if I have time to get on, so hang on tight :)

[Inoculator9]

The contradictions in general, you don't need specifics because we both know they do exist.

And I never said anything about changing history. I meant he could write the whole thing at once, acounting for all the lessons and subjects that would be dealt with through out time. I certainly wouldn't put it past him ;) And if a God truelly did care whether we understood it or not he could make it understandable. He is omnipotent isn't he?

[Scrinlord]

he is omnipotent, but he would have to change us so that we could understand. I am not saying he COULDN'T, I am just saying he wouldnt. he created us, and he has not changed us sense. and as for not writing the whole thing at once, I think that people would have rejected it if it came like that. Most people would be afraid of it, because they did not understand how it got there, or if God had a person write it all down, they would reject that persons work for relating to things that were completely insane for their time period.

[Inoculator9]

But if he is omnipotent, then he could make it understandable without changing us. If he had to change us then he would not be omnipotent.

[Scrinlord]

no, because HE can do whatever he wants, but WE have limitations on what we can understand. if he makes it so that we can understand it, that changes us.

[Inoculator9]

He doesn't make it so we understand it, he makes it so it is understandable. By writing it at all he is changing us, by existing he changes us, by not interfering he changes us, that is unavoidable. And if you want to get metaphysical he could change us without changing us because he is omnipotent ;D

[Scrinlord]

ya, I know that, but I am too tired to be metaphysical right now (fun as that is)

how could he make it understadable considering human limitations. That is what HE is working around.

and I g2g, or I am going to pass out on my keyboard.

chow

[Inoculator9]

Bye bye then, and thx for the debate ;D

[exatreide]

no one said my post was wrong...

so acriku may have been a debater for most of his time on fed2k. everyone puts a agrument against him..

hehe yay i am right :)

[sneezer3]

The basic question of Dionsaur bones has been answer. they are in the Bible although i'm not sure where.

Evolution is not abiogenesis! It does not tell anybody anything about how life came about. It tells how life developed. Please keep that in mind!

Your right, however a vast majorty of people belive the big bang. and the thread name has Big Bang theory in it. And you can't get something out of nothing. thus any theory will not do. Aside from something always being there.

no. If god created us in his own image, andwe hurt each other, then sureley pain and suffering are gods doings.

No, when he crated us he made us perfect. but gave man a choice on good or evil. we picked evil if you haven't already guessed while reading this.

Indeed. The human mind is not capable of comprehending the origins of the universe. Anyone who tells themselves otherwise is being blindly arrogant, IMO. But human curiosity continues to attempt to accomplish the impossible. That is why we created the concept of an infinite being. We created God, my friend, through our feeble minded curiosity. Not the other way around.

Evolution is not abiogenesis! It does not tell anybody anything about how life came about. It tells how life developed. Please keep that in mind!

Your right, however a vast majorty of people belive the big bang. and the thread name has Big Bang theory in it. And you can't get something out of nothing. thus any theory will not do.

no. If god created us in his own image, andwe hurt each other, then sureley pain and suffering are gods doings.

No, when he crated us he made us perfect. but gave man a choice on good or evil. we picked evil if you haven't already guessed while reading this.

The universe is made up of finite changing things that need causes. The sum of any set of finite changing things that need a cause is ALSO a finite changing thing that needs a cause. To postulate therefore that the universe itself needs no cause, despite all the components requiring one is a vastly more complex view to hold then mine. Set of things requiring cause = Sum of Set also requires a cause

A beautiful web of words. How unfortunate it is that they aren't true. You can ramble on about infinite this and how it just HAD to have derived from finite that, but since you ignored me the first time, what REASON do you have to believe that there is anything beyond the finite?

Logical reasoning for one thing. What reason do you have to belive the Big Bang?

I don't believe that. What on Earth made you think I believe that? And the basketball stops bouncing because it encounters air resistence. Remove the resistence, and the basketball will never cease to bounce. Remove the resistence, and perpetual motion was possible. The laws of physics are not unlike other rules. Rules have exceptions. They cannot, however, be broken, and there cannot be uncaused exceptions.

What are the chances

what ludacris reason is there for you to believe there is anything beyond the natural?

if you believe sometihng from nothing, if you believe an endless universe, then you obviously have some reasons.

Why didn't you answer my question instead of making wild assumptions and trying to throw it back in my face. Remember those three "possibilities" for the origins of the universe you posted in a previous thread? Well, they're all impossible. Yet here we are. A paradox - that's what this is. By our understanding, the universe is impossible. Either we are correct and this is all impossible, or our understanding of reality is too limited to comprehend the origins of the universe. Obviously, I think it's the latter.

You are correct, it is in a way a paradox. see "Who made God" He says in Revlation Jesus said "I am the first and the last the beginging and the end" Time would have no effect on God. and yes, why it does not is beyond are understanding. http://www.chick.com/reading/books/253/0253_23.asp

i might add that the chances of geting all elments explodeing out of no where is about as unlikely you can get a dictanary if you had some paper and splatterd paint on each page.

Now for holes in Evolution AND the Big Bang Theory.

-The Rotation of the Earth

The rotation of the earth is gradually slowing due to the gravitational drag forces of the sun, moon and other factors. If the earth is billions of years old, as uniformitarian geologists insist, and it has been slowing down uniformly, then its present rotation should be zero! Furthermore, if we extrapolate backward for several billion years, the centrifugal force would have been so great that the continents would have been sent to the equatorial regions and the overall shape of the earth would have been more like a flat pancake. But, as is commonly known, the shape of the earth is spherical; its continents are not confined to the equatorial regions, and it continues to rotate on its axis at approximately 1,000 mph at the equator. The obvious conclusion is that the earth is not billions of years old.

-Protons.

Protons are Postively Charged. It is a law of electricty that Like charges repel each other! Since all protons of the Nucleus are Postively charged, they should repel each other and scatter into space.

The Bible tells us "And by him all things Consist." which means are held togather.

-More faith.

It takes more faith to belive Evolution and the Big Bang then to be a Christan, period. if you don't belive me ask yourself these questions.

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

*How did photosynthesis evolve?

*How did thought evolve?

*How did flowering plants evolve, and from that?

*Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?

*Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?

What are you risking if you are wrong? As one of my debate opponents said, "Either there is a God or there is not. Both possibilities are frightening."

And finely

Do your answers show more or less faith than the person who says, "God must have designed it"?

You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Jesus as Saveur you know where to find me.

[Dude_Doc]

Isn't it enough proof that Earth is the third planet from the sun, and that we got hundreds of thousands years to do what we want, before something with the sun happens? The proof of creation is everywhere if you only open your eyes and look carefully.

[SurlyPIG]

The basic question of Dionsaur bones has been answer. they are in the Bible although i'm not sure where.

No. They aren't. That thing posted earlier was, by no possible stretch of the imagination, a dinosaur. It said it existed during the time of man. It kept asking who could slay it.

Logical reasoning for one thing. What reason do you have to belive the Big Bang?

HAH! Just because we don't yet have an explanation for the origins of the finite, why must there be something beyond the natural all of a sudden? Logic? That's a joke. That's an absolute joke.

Can you see God?

Hear God?

Speak to God?

Feel God?

Can you, in any objective way, know that God exists?

Obviously no. If you answered yes to any of these you would be considered a skizophrenic by any sane theist. It's all a giant fairy tale.

You are correct, it is in a way a paradox. see "Who made God" He says in Revlation Jesus said "I am the first and the last the beginging and the end" Time would have no effect on God. and yes, why it does not is beyond are understanding. http://www.chick.com/reading/books/253/0253_23.asp

Re-posting the same flawed arguement doesn't make it any less flawed. The concept of omnipotence is completely absurd. There are dozens upon dozens of things in the bible that would suggest God is not omnipotent. Consciousness at any level and any form cannot, by definition, be omnipotent, supernatural, everlasting, etc.

i might add that the chances of geting all elments explodeing out of no where is about as unlikely you can get a dictanary if you had some paper and splatterd paint on each page.

And I suppose you were calculating these odds when you were watching the current universe begin, hmm?

The rotation of the earth is gradually slowing due to the gravitational drag forces of the sun, moon and other factors. If the earth is billions of years old, as uniformitarian geologists insist, and it has been slowing down uniformly, then its present rotation should be zero! Furthermore, if we extrapolate backward for several billion years, the centrifugal force would have been so great that the continents would have been sent to the equatorial regions and the overall shape of the earth would have been more like a flat pancake. But, as is commonly known, the shape of the earth is spherical; its continents are not confined to the equatorial regions, and it continues to rotate on its axis at approximately 1,000 mph at the equator. The obvious conclusion is that the earth is not billions of years old.

Did you just make that up? That's pathetic. The obvious conclusion is that the rotation is slowing down EXTREMELY slowly, un-noticeable to us. And that it was rotating faster billions of years ago.

Protons are Postively Charged. It is a law of electricty that Like charges repel each other! Since all protons of the Nucleus are Postively charged, they should repel each other and scatter into space.

Did you just make that up too? You obviously know nothing about chemistry.

It takes more faith to belive Evolution and the Big Bang then to be a Christan, period.

Thats just what you tell yourself. I don't pray to a science textbook at night you know. I don't need to go to a library every Sunday to re-affirm my knowledge that there's no God. Church/Mosques/Synagogues/Temples, prayer, the bible/Qur-an etc, all these things are designed to help theists KEEP their faith. If they don't keep faith they won't have kids of the same religion, convert others etc. and that goes against the objective and purpose of religion; to expand.

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Beats me. Where did your God come from?

Where did matter come from?

Beats me. Who wrote the bible?

*How did photosynthesis evolve?

Like any other chemical process its capability emerged slowly in an environment where processing H2O and CO2 using radiant energy and excreting C6H12O6 and O2 would be beneficial. Photosynthesis would obviously first have evolved in unicellular organisms, perhaps in bacteria or other prokaryotic cells.

*How did thought evolve?

The first life was almost a programmed machine. Thought evolved when live gained the ability to sense. Biodiversity amongst a species lead from circumstantial Darwinism, and slowly organisms became less behaving based on "programmed" responses and more dependant on what they senses told them. Eventually, over thousands upon thousands of years, this lead to the mammilian ability to process, rationalize, and make decisions.

*How did flowering plants evolve, and from that?

Why don't you just read about evolution instead of asking me this..It's very boring you know.

*Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?

Of course. By macroevolution I assume you mean the formation of new species. And circumstance has proved this true in OUR generation. Most good science classes will use the split water-cave example for this. True story; there's a lake with an underwater cave inside it. A particular species of fish lives there. Fish live in the lake and inside the cave. One day, the walls of the cave breaks off, closing many fish both inside and outside. Over a few generations inside the cave, the fish that were trapped in the cave lose their eyesight. They're completely blind, but their other senses become heightened, so the blind ones do better in that environment. One day humans open up this cave, take a look inside and they see this species of fish without normal eyes. Furthermore they can't mate with the species they were originally part of! There's your example of macroevolution.

*Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?

No.

What are you risking if you are wrong? As one of my debate opponents said, "Either there is a God or there is not. Both possibilities are frightening."

Hehe this'll be a field day...

What are you risking if YOU'RE wrong? What if YOUR God is false? What if, say, Allah, is true? You'll go to the Islamic hell, won't you? What if there is no god at all? What if aleins come to bring all the Raelians to grace? What if the aleins come to save the scientologists from Earth? There are thousands of religions in the world. Like it or not, you're going to 999 different hells.

Do your answers show more or less faith than the person who says, "God must have designed it"?

Yep. It takes way less faith to believe in conclusions drawn from what we observe than it does to believe in any un-proveable, unsenseable omnipotent being.

You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Jesus as Saveur you know where to find me.

Hehehe, this just proves my point.

Jon: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Jesus as Saveur you know where to find me."

Ahmed: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Mohammed as Saveur you know where to find me."

Jacob: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Moses as Saveur you know where to find me."

Clonaid: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Rael as Saveur you know where to find me."

Which one do I choose? They all use the same exact arguements to insist they are correct. Atheism, evolution etc. is different. The un-disprovable cannot compete with the proven. ;)

[sneezer3]

i'l reply a bit latter. :)

[DjCiD]

all those darn quotes.. I feel like I'm in a bad sci-fi movie. Site Wars attack of the Quotes - The Quote War has begun...

[SurlyPIG]

oops :-X

Sorry about the messed up quotes. I've fixed it now.

[sneezer3]

HAH! Just because we don't yet have an explanation for the origins of the finite, why must there be something beyond the natural all of a sudden? Logic? That's a joke. That's an absolute joke.

Can you see God?

Hear God?

Speak to God?

Feel God?

Can you, in any objective way, know that God exists?

Obviously no. If you answered yes to any of these you would be considered a skizophrenic by any sane theist. It's all a giant fairy tale.

No.

In a way.

Yes

Yes

Yes.

Ask yourself the same questions about the wind, one of the most commenly used examples.

Can you see wind?

Can you talk to the wind?

Can you feel the wind?

Can you, in any objective way, know that the wind exists?

That is a conterdiction within your own statements. you can't see the wind yet you still belive there is such a thing.

Re-posting the same flawed arguement doesn't make it any less flawed. The concept of omnipotence is completely absurd. There are dozens upon dozens of things in the bible that would suggest God is not omnipotent. Consciousness at any level and any form cannot, by definition, be omnipotent, supernatural, everlasting, etc.

I probbly missed something, but all i saw you say was it is absurd, which is no offence an absurb arguement.

And I suppose you were calculating these odds when you were watching the current universe begin, hmm?

What are the chances you can get a plan made dictanry out of one try?

What are you odds you could get something out of an explosion and all goes each in another direction?

Thats just what you tell yourself. I don't pray to a science textbook at night you know. I don't need to go to a library every Sunday to re-affirm my knowledge that there's no God. Church/Mosques/Synagogues/Temples, prayer, the bible/Qur-an etc, all these things are designed to help theists KEEP their faith. If they don't keep faith they won't have kids of the same religion, convert others etc. and that goes against the objective and purpose of religion; to expand.

Yes, but Evolution is just as good as a reilgus view. thats why i agree that all faiths should be tought in school. and for one thing is saves a lot of arguements agenst the ones who aren't

You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Jesus as Saveur you know where to find me.

Hehehe, this just proves my point.

Jon: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Jesus as Saveur you know where to find me."

Ahmed: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Mohammed as Saveur you know where to find me."

Jacob: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Moses as Saveur you know where to find me."

Clonaid: "You have been feed a big lie. if you would like to know how to Recive Rael as Saveur you know where to find me."

Which one do I choose? They all use the same exact arguements to insist they are correct. Atheism, evolution etc. is different. The un-disprovable cannot compete with the proven. ;)

Evolution (or it with any other theory aside from big bang) is not true because you can't get something from nothing.

Mohammed din't die for your sins.

Moses was God's servent. and inless there is something is something i don't know of, i don't think he would have said that.

The belief of Islam will preclude the belief and worship of all the other deities and "isms".

Budda is in the grave Jesus is risen.

The belief of Hinduism will embrace practically all kinds of deities.

The belief of Christianity will exclude all other religions: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6

Just as not every kind of medicine can heal a particular life-threatening disease, so, not every religion can save a soul from hell.

If we, by necessity, must be extremely careful in treating a life-threatening disease, how much more precautions must we take with regards to issues pertaining to our eternal estate.

We can be wrong with our opinions but we cannot be wrong with our facts.

If you die wrong the first time you cannot come back to die better a second time. - Robert Murray M'Cheyne

Since we have wronged God through our sins, we must come to Him on His terms and conditions.

NOT BY OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. - Rom 3:10 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. - Rom 3:23

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. - Isa 64:6

Compaired to the law we are imperfect.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.... - Tit 3:5

BUT BY GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS: ...This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD. - Isa 54:17

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness... But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. -Rom 4:3-6'

Ok, i might have missed something, you made a big post so if i did let me know. :) :-

EDIT ah, something i left out.

Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?

No.

If you belive the Big Bang then you do.

The un-disprovable cannot compete with the proven. ;)

In what areas has it been proven then? I guess you was there on teh day of the Big Bang. ::) you was watching when suddenly BOOM! woah. simply amazing! eh, how did you live past the blast?! ;D

[sneezer3]

In any case, i think the Bible said it best.

For the preching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto those that are saved, it is the power of God.