And God commandeth, "Kill your mother."

[SurlyPIG]

Hehe, it isn't the fairest of questions but I'd like to hear what the purpose of the thread was...

[rogue1896]

and if i hear that the purpose of the thread was to try to raise awareness of the Freshwater Crocodile's endangered situation i will literally shit myself laughing so hard. ;D

[sneezer3]

You don't know if he would or would not ask somebody such a thing. He asked Abraham didn't he? So who knows, he might send a fairy to stop you because we all know he has better things to do himself. And it is not mockery. You are too sensitive.

it might not be mockery, but it is an unfair question, just like the example i gave.

and no he wouldn't, to put it more planly. Paul said

"Even if an angle come preaching another Gospel let him be a curse"

Now it says not to kill anyone. inless its self defence."Thou Shalt not kill" therefore it could not be of God if we where told to kill someone. and so that little fairy that comes down be a curse. ;) And it would not be needed for Salvation either. "For by Grace are ye saved"

ok, Acriku...after 5 pages of posting, you finally got your answers. ;D he he.

See? We aren't so bad. A few twists of the arm, and sawing of off a limb or two, and we cooperate.

Yeah. i'd say if we asked them an unfair question it would be even longer. ;)

[Acriku]

Ah moral relativism eh sneezer3?

If you said that, you would be wrong :)

[emprworm]

huh? I really don't think sneezer is a moral relatavist

[rogue1896]

well aciku? you gonna tell us or you gonna torture us a little more? :- ;)

[Acriku]

Sneezer just gave an exception to a commandment, I believe that that isn't moral absolution.

Ok, this is what everybody has been waiting for! I have waiting long enough! Besides the sacrificial virgin is getting bored :D

This poll was made for a couple reasons, one was to see where people's faith limit was. Would their faith be so deep that they would follow any command of God, even if it meant kill their mother? I believe we got a widespread response. Some said yes. Many said no. Some were a little iffy. Now we will find out why they had to reach down into the waters of faith some have not swam in.

I will get to another reason later down.

Now, some people might be familiar with "Plato's Dilemma", where he asks: Is it good because God says it is, or does God say it because it is good? The people who have answered with no conditions, fall under one of these two. Those who said yes, obviously fall under the former, and the no-sayers fall under the latter. Those with conditions, well we can let them sort it out later to which they might come to an answer with no conditions.

The people who have said yes, might want to know about the Divine Command Theory. This is basically that moral actions are those which conform to God's will. Whatever God says to do, it must be morally good, and whatever God says not to do, must be morally bad. Bad things are because God says so, and good things are because God says so. This link can explain it more so : http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/d/divineco.htm

Those who have said no, find themselves adhering to an external moral code. And you might also find, that you have more in common with humanism that you might have previously thought. Yep, that's right, theists can be secular humanist and still be a theist, and there are many examples. Check out the Affirmations of Humanism : http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/affirmations.html

After reading the Affirmations of Humanism, you might find out that a lot of your beliefs are common with Humanism. Perhaps you might agree with them so much as do declare yourself a secular humanist - and that doesn't denounce your faith whatsoever :)

Hope you enjoyed this thread, and feel free to discuss this here.

[Edric O]

Those who have said no, find themselves adhering to an external moral code. And you might also find, that you have more in common with humanism that you might have previously thought. Yep, that's right, theists can be secular humanist and still be a theist, and there are many examples. Check out the Affirmations of Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/affirmations.html

After reading the Affirmations of Humanism, you might find out that a lot of your beliefs are common with Humanism. Perhaps you might agree with them so much as do declare yourself a secular humanist - and that doesn't denounce your faith whatsoever :)

Can you say "propaganda"? ::)

[Acriku]

Why is that? Please explain your accusation thoroughly so that we may come to either an agreement or a disagreement, and that others will understand your position so that they may intake in the discussion of the accused "propoganda."

[TMA_1]

because you have an angle, a bent towards athiesm. You are not one of those intelligent fellows that searches. You say you have arrived but you are only a teen. Just like most of us. You are just as strong an athiest as I am a strong christian. You may hide that in the fact that you want evidance, but if that was the case you would not say things the way you do, such as the way you place darwinism as the key that is almost certain truth. You need to calm down and think. Outside you are wise, inside you are screaming and emotional.

[Edric O]

Acriku, first of all I was only half-serious. ;)

Second, look at that quote. You basically said: "Hey you guys, look, you have so much in common with this! Wouldn't you want to try it out? No strings attached, of course... *ahem* ;D "

[Acriku]

I guess we all need to work on our "catching" jokes Edric ;)

I was just telling them they might have more in common with secular humanism than they thought, and if they agree with it so much they can become one if they wanted to. If they wanted to. I just ask that they read the Affirmations and decide for themselves. For themselves. :)

[Edric O]

Well, Christianity in general also has far more in common with socialism/communism than most people realize... Perhaps they might want to take a look into that, as well. ;)

[Acriku]

Hey who knows, if it works ;) Humanism works.

[emprworm]

how does humanism work? Work as in what way? By what standard are you using in which to say "it works?"

[sneezer3]

You see, God would not command anything like that, and he says the tottely diffrant even. and God would not back off on what he said therefore there is no exception to any commandment. and i never said there was. and to be honest morelly i wouldn't be able to kill my mom. if he did. but he wouldn't. God is a God of Justice. therefore the likelyness of that would be about the same that ever single person in history and ever single computer is flaw and 1+1 actully = something else, other then one.

God condems all sin. ever heard of the ten commandments? The bible covers ever area of sin. Do you know what he says about people that call good evil and evil good?

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil that put darkness for light, and light for darkness that put bitter for sweet and sweet for better!

- Isaiah 5:20

And like i said before. that is about as an unfair question as to make a statement all evolutionests should kill themselfs.

Hey who knows, if it works ;) Humanism works.

<Diffrant quote from above post ^^^>

After reading the Affirmations of Humanism, you might find out that a lot of your beliefs are common with Humanism. Perhaps you might agree with them so much as do declare yourself a secular humanist - and that doesn't denounce your faith whatsoever :)

even if evolution and all of that where true. at are current rate we would kill are selfs before anything, with nukeclear technolegy. all we are are dirty flithy rotten cotten picken naked nasty looking filthy siners. and if man did ever get into outter space. beer cans/bottles would be everwhere. We can do nothing without God. without him are very protons would scatter into space. and without God there is no purpose to life aside from to enjoy it for what it is. and to fullfill all of your lusts/needs/disires

Just responding to it but don't mean to start a debate or anything. :-

[Acriku]

Emprworm, it works in that what was written down, is able to be performed in real life with the intentional goals met.

Of course sneezer comes in even after I was done asking the question. Rofl ;)

And I don't see the connection between my question and the "statement" that all evolutionists should kill themselves. That'd be a shame though.

all we are are dirty flithy rotten cotten picken naked nasty looking filthy siners

Well glad you feel that way, now back to reality...

We can do nothing without God. without him are very protons would scatter into space. and without God there is no purpose to life aside from to enjoy it for what it is. and to fullfill all of your lusts/needs/disires

I don't know who brainwashed your mind, but you got it all wrong. Mmk? Don't tell me I have God in me...

[TMA_1]

Those of you who said yes without strings should be respected. They follow the beliefs completely. Those are the believers that are true.

Those who said no or added strings to it may be true believers, but have compremised the structure of God's will. One compremise in a bridge will destroy the whole structure. One fracture in a pillar will knock down a whole building. I will quote The Screwtape Letters. "A moderate christian is as good to us as any unbeliever" said the demon master to his apprintace Wormwood.

[Acriku]

I don't know if they should be respected as much as take an interest of. They can do anything with their faith that is so extreme, maybe the fact that they don't use their faith to kill people is what is so respectable.

[TMA_1]

Well this is a talk me and acriku had on AIM. It is easier for me to talk in real time. Just some info on the whole subject. I asked permission and me my good friend joe (acriku) had a good debate or talk on it. Just here for you guys to read and discuss more on it. :) Thanks acriku for letting me post this.

Vigilante 109: hey joey got a question

Vigilante 109: lol

Vigilante 109: what was the whole point to that one thread

Vigilante 109: you were going to tella bout?

Vigilante 109: a couple days ago

Vigilante 109: ;-)

Vigilante 109: lol

JoeDarK51: i said the point

JoeDarK51: to the command kill mother thing?

Vigilante 109: yeah

Vigilante 109: I ddint come across it

Vigilante 109: guess I am one lazy bastard

Vigilante 109: lol

Vigilante 109: what was it in a nutshell?

JoeDarK51: hehe

JoeDarK51: ah man just read it lol, too much to say

Vigilante 109: you mean you cant even summerize it?

Vigilante 109: who is the lazy bastard now?

Vigilante 109: lol

Vigilante 109: ;-)

JoeDarK51: lol

Vigilante 109: oh alright Ill read it

Vigilante 109: just a second

JoeDarK51: k

Vigilante 109: lol yay

Vigilante 109: I defeated the test

Vigilante 109: I am afraid I am not a humanist my good friend

Vigilante 109: lol

JoeDarK51: hehe

JoeDarK51: ohw ell

JoeDarK51: atleast you still work for the better of humankind right?

JoeDarK51: and yourself of course

Vigilante 109: you should at least respect the fact that me and others who answered yes actually have faith in what we believe

JoeDarK51: did I say you don't have faith in what you believe?

Vigilante 109: God's work is always good work. good to even people who dont believe

Vigilante 109: no some people dont

Vigilante 109: that is aparent

Vigilante 109: read what people said

Vigilante 109: if somebody cant follow one command

Vigilante 109: they are therefore in a fracture

Vigilante 109: and all commands are destroyed

Vigilante 109: therefore have no faith

JoeDarK51: I see people break the commandments everyday and still retain their belief?

JoeDarK51: who the hell is weebles lol

Vigilante 109: lol just being weird

Vigilante 109: yeah you see

Vigilante 109: we have faith

Vigilante 109: even if we break them

Vigilante 109: we know what is right

Vigilante 109: kinda like this

Vigilante 109: have you disobeyed your parents?

Vigilante 109: when you knew they were right

JoeDarK51: nope i'm a perfect kid

Vigilante 109: lol

Vigilante 109: we all have

JoeDarK51: ok yes

Vigilante 109: so you see

Vigilante 109: I know what is right

Vigilante 109: I may make mistakes

Vigilante 109: but I understand my failings

Vigilante 109: and God forgave me of them

Vigilante 109: do you kinda see?

JoeDarK51: but wait, when you can't bring yourself to kill somebody even though God commanded you, you must have a feeling that it is wrong to kill that person

Vigilante 109: who said feelings are correct?

Vigilante 109: I may feel love for a girl when it in fact is lust

Vigilante 109: feelings confused judgement

Vigilante 109: remember that

JoeDarK51: if you feel it is wrong, your morals stand above what god commands you do to do

JoeDarK51: your personal morals

Vigilante 109: I have no personal morals

JoeDarK51: eh?

Vigilante 109: because all my morals come from GOd

Vigilante 109: the rest of the feelings

Vigilante 109: are just acts independant of God

Vigilante 109: and are therefore wrong

JoeDarK51: you sound just like the muslim terrorists, without a god that would allow such evil

Vigilante 109: and that is why those muslim terrorists have something we dont

Vigilante 109: they just use their faith in the wrong way

Vigilante 109: you are just blinded by western morals

Vigilante 109: of independance

Vigilante 109: you grow up with them

Vigilante 109: so you just go along with them

Vigilante 109: you dont question

Vigilante 109: the terrorists were evil and wrong

JoeDarK51: so i shouldn't be independent? be among a collective as the ant does to the queen?

Vigilante 109: but their faith was true

Vigilante 109: well as a christian you have independance of mind and thinking, but dependance on God in love and trust

Vigilante 109: like a married couple

Vigilante 109: the man depends on the wife

Vigilante 109: and the wife depends on the man

Vigilante 109: they are both independant thinkin

Vigilante 109: g

Vigilante 109: but depend on eachother

Vigilante 109: with their true love

Vigilante 109: you see?

JoeDarK51: dependence brings weakness

JoeDarK51: tried and truye

JoeDarK51: true

Vigilante 109: I agree

Vigilante 109: dependance on man does bring weakness

Vigilante 109: and since this world is evil

Vigilante 109: dependance on God brings weakness on this earth

Vigilante 109: but Paul the apostle said something

Vigilante 109: when I am weak. I am then strong

Vigilante 109: when we are in heaven. we will no longer be weak

Vigilante 109: now we are though

Vigilante 109: we are as lambs to the slaughter

Vigilante 109: mind if I post this talk? or want to keep it private?

JoeDarK51: sure

Vigilante 109: okay cool

Vigilante 109: do ou see where I amcoming from though?

JoeDarK51: on which subject, lol, we got offtopic a bit

Vigilante 109: lol on what I believe

Vigilante 109: do you see where it falls into place for me?

JoeDarK51: so whatever God says it moral?

JoeDarK51: is*

Vigilante 109: yup

Vigilante 109: God is perfect

Vigilante 109: whatever he does is perfect

Vigilante 109: therefore is moral

JoeDarK51: except make us ;-)

Vigilante 109: simple logic

Vigilante 109: he made us perfect silly

Vigilante 109: lol

Vigilante 109: we fell from grace

Vigilante 109: not God

JoeDarK51: grace?

Vigilante 109: fell from perfection

Vigilante 109: fell from innocence

Vigilante 109: see what I mean?

[sneezer3]

"Well glad you feel that way, now back to reality..."

Wow. Finly a pefect being! That never has done wrong. never told a lie. never belived a lie. Never sined. Never killed there mother ;) Never killed anyone. Never made any Mistakes.

C'mon, we have all lied and one time or another.

but what am i saying. it is in your humen nature to reject, probbly even DNA code.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

- Jn 3:19-20

I don't know if they should be respected as much as take an interest of. They can do anything with their faith that is so extreme, maybe the fact that they don't use their faith to kill people is what is so respectable.

I go by what the bible says. i think you are reffering to religion in general.

Let me put it this way:

If someone twists my faith. i will study the context of whatever verse they used, and twist it right back. ;)

Don't tell me I have God in me...

You don't. inless you have at one time or another accepted Jesus Christ as your on personl saveur.

[Acriku]

Well without God I should, and I quote, "fullfill all of my lusts/needs/disires" Well I don't fulfill them all, so I must have God in me no? Morality without God is possible, why do you say it is not?

And yes, I am proud to say I have never killed anybody. In human nature to reject what?

[VigilVirus]

Morality has little to do with religion or God. Morality is the values that you have learned from personal experience and that you have been taught by your parents. It does not matter whether your parents are atheists or christians the basic morals are the same and you can't deny that. Anyone who says otherwise is advocating christianity.

[sneezer3]

Morality has little to do with religion or God. Morality is the values that you have learned from personal experience and that you have been taught by your parents. It does not matter whether your parents are atheists or christians the basic morals are the same and you can't deny that. Anyone who says otherwise is advocating christianity.

I would actully agree wtih you here.

Well without God I should, and I quote, "fullfill all of my lusts/needs/disires" Well I don't fulfill them all, so I must have God in me no?

And yes, I am proud to say I have never killed anybody. In human nature to reject what?

No, simple as that. if you don't accept God. then you still have your moralty. and to decide if something is right or wrong. but thats preety much all that protects you from doing wrong untill your saved though.

And yes, I am proud to say I have never killed anybody. In human nature to reject what?

Is humen nature to reject God, That sin-nature that started in Edin. but to reject his gift of everlasting life. to reject Gods gift of dieing on the cross for your sins. that is humen nature. that is what i was reffering to.

[Acriku]

Oh please, I laugh at the idea that in the genome of human chromosomes there is an allele to reject God. And being saved does not make you a perfectly moral person, you can still sin, still reject God later on, and still be as you were not saved.