Correction to ACElethal's Pathfinding Comments and Further Pathfinding Comments

[VigilVirus]

One question: What name(s) do you play by on custom settings? I'd like to play you sometime, but I never see you online.

Isn't Nav's nick Cyrenius?

[DjCiD]

ding ding ding... we have a winner. It used to be but I'm not sure if he plays anymore. And if he does I dont know if he made new ones.

[Navaros]

taq, you have NEVER beat me in ANY game, custom or otherwise EXCEPT one game on Knife Fight where playerap was your partner and my partner was TOTAL n00b who didn't do ANYTHING to help at all (he built minos and kept them all IN HIS BASE... remember that one? i sure do...). i *still* almost singlehandedly took down *both* you *and* playerap in that game, but you guys won out in the end only 'cause i had a n00b partner. other than that, you have not ever beaten me, and certainly never in 1vs1. i think you are having delusions or something 'cause it never happened. (unless you are talking about me playing you in QM and me quitting under 3 on you... that is NOT a loss for me nor is it a Win for you)

about your To Nimila comments, yes that does work vs. idiot players, however good players will still be able to ravage your spice while remaining well-outside the range of return-fire of Minos placed on cliffs. this does depend on the side though. the person who starts on the East (Right) side of To Nimila is *totally* screwed by harvesting bugs, esp. if he is ATR. there's no possible way the best ATR player would beat an above-average Hark or Ordos player in that setting because Minos take FOREVER to get into range to defend the spice and a good player will exploit the harvesting bugs on that map before the ATR even has ADVs. To Nimila is just one map, and on *most* others the harvesting bugs likewise royally screw ATR over as well all players who believe Emp should be a game of skill, not a game where the Winner is determined solely based on who was able to exploit more harvesting bugs.

[Ghosty_Square]

Alright, Emperor sucks, it is not a strategy game where skill determines the winner. Because of this, which it is too hard to tolerate, you, a skillful strategist will stop playing this silly game and leave us in peace, right?

[DjCiD]

Wow I dont think I've ever see Ghosty get edgy... but every one has there limits....

[rogue1896]

well nav since you seem to have ignored my question on the other topic i'll ask you here. do you still insist on the fact that you played me 8 to 9 months ago in a set of qm's that i myself asked for once a week. i just want to make sure that you believe what you are saying before i actually go out of my way to prove your sorry ass wrong. you should be grateful though. b/c i NEVER do anything i don't have to unless it's for my benefit.

[undsputed]

When the heck did you come back Nav? I must have missed something. But I still haven't seen you online...maybe your just in QM.

You better watch out, I may show up in QM just to hand you a loss =) That would be sweet.

Have you considered trying another house??? WestWood actually put three of them in the game and if you aren't "successful enough" with atr, then try hark or ordos (the other two houses in the game). Plus, you'd get a much needed understanding of what a hark/ordos player go through.

[ethan]

well, nav thinks hes so uber with all houses that he needs to work on atredies, but, nav, choose the best house that suits YOU. not the popular, or unpopular, or what the movies go by, or whatever. you have to know the strategies and the weak points and strong points of your house you are playing before you become a master at it. and not bitch about the low points. and learn how to use bold code because im seeing to much * * * * * * * * *

[Navaros]

Alright, Emperor sucks, it is not a strategy game where skill determines the winner. Because of this, which it is too hard to tolerate, you, a skillful strategist will stop playing this silly game and leave us in peace, right?

ghosty, you should try to take that aggression and put it towards the benefit of the Emp community. you are one of the guys who might actually be able to correct the pathfinding if you really put your mind to it.

undsputed, i am very successful enough with ATR even despite all the harvesting bugs which just goes to show that perhaps i am a demi-god-like player after all, though not in the same class as ACE. however, that does NOT mean that unfair maps and harvesting bugs are *okay*. just a few days ago, i won a QM in which my enemy LITERALLY had about 10X the amount of initial rock space I did. I had rock space which was siphoned off by a ramp so the only way to get more was to make an MCV within the first 7 mins of the game, whereas my enemy did NOT have his rock space siphoned off by a ramp. i was literally shocked at this map; i didn't recall playing it ever before even within thousands of QM games under my belt - i thought maybe it was a new QM map? because on all the ones I remember your enemy also has very little initial rock space if you do. though not on this one. in any case, i still ended up winning, thankfully because my enemy didn't press me at the critical moments of the game when i had no money due to the lack of space and he had all the space in the world. he attacked me a little bit and got far more kills than he normally would have, but if he had pressed me with 100% of his units I would have lost to a much less-skilled player simply due to a grossly unfair map. most of the maps in Emp are currently unfair for another reason though: lack of working Refinery Waypoints combined with un-avoidable harvesting bugs

fixing the Refinery Waypoint bugs would make most of the maps in Emp semi-fair; because then with good micro the unfair harvesting bugs could be averted. as it now stands, averting the gameplay-ruining harvesting bugs is entirely impossible.

yes it is true that i suck playing as Hark and Ordos and if I took the time to learn how to play them then i too would be able to exploit the harvesting bugs just as much as everyone else - ie: rushing the ATR at wherever he happens to *not* be defending his harvesting since if an ATR splits up his army to defend multiple spice fields, Hark or Ordos simply needs to attack the ATR's army one piece at a time with 100% of his army, and ATR is toast. say the game has went on for $30 000 worth of unit production for each side. Since Minos take FOREVER to move, ATR needs to decide early on how to defend multiple spice fields/and/or base entrances whereas Hark and Ordos can just zip to wherever the ATR tries attacking them to give ATR the shaft; ATR can not even retreat in the middle of battle so he has to be 100% sure he's ready to attack or Lose - Hark and Ordos can always "test the water" by attacking, then retreating.

Say the ATR splits up his $30 000 worth of units to two separate spice fields that are far apart. Hark or Ordos attacks with 100% of his $30 000 vs $15 000 worth of ATR units. ATR loses half his units and there is no way his other $15 000 will be able to get to the spot of the attack in time to respond. Hark then goes on to Win the game, obviously. however, for me to exploit the harvesting bugs in such ways might be fun for a while, yet ultimately it is unfulfilling because Westwood believes that players are SUPPOSED to be able to harvest ANYWHERE they choose with 100% CONTROL and the fact that this bug was never corrected so that Westwood's belief became reality makes for very bad "strat gameplay".

if you want to put the theory that the harvesting bugs make the game really unfair to a psychlogical test just ask yourself: what do most people consider to be "ATR maps?" most common answers would be Fishers, Knife Fight, and a few other pretty small maps in which the harvesting is mostly in one place. *why* are these ATR maps? because for the most part, ATR can put all of his army in one place in order to reasonably fight back against Hark or Ordos. putting ATR on an *even playing field* with the other Houses automatically makes that map an "ATR map", apparentely. ::) that fact speaks to the reality that people are so *accustomed* to exploiting the harvesting bugs and giving ATR the shaft because of them that it's second-nature to think of it as a "natural" part of Emp gameply to do so. i am of the opinion that this is a wrongful and unfair way of thinking, and that all Houses should be on an even playing field by default in order for Emp to be a truly balanced RTS in which only skill determines the Winner

btw ethan, telling me to use bold is actually good feedback. however, maybe if you actually outlined *how* one accomplishes that, i'd take you up on that advice

[rogue1896]

BOLD

[ b ] *text* [ /b ] without the spaces

[ethan]

Alright, Emperor sucks, it is not a strategy game where skill determines the winner. Because of this, which it is too hard to tolerate, you, a skillful strategist will stop playing this silly game and leave us in peace, right?

ghosty, you should try to take that aggression and put it towards the benefit of the Emp community. you are one of the guys who might actually be able to correct the pathfinding if you really put your mind to it.

undsputed, i am very successful enough with ATR even despite all the harvesting bugs which just goes to show that perhaps i am a demi-god-like player after all, though not in the same class as ACE. however, that does NOT mean that unfair maps and harvesting bugs are *okay*. just a few days ago, i won a QM in which my enemy LITERALLY had about 10X the amount of initial rock space I did. I had rock space which was siphoned off by a ramp so the only way to get more was to make an MCV within the first 7 mins of the game, whereas my enemy did NOT have his rock space siphoned off by a ramp. i was literally shocked at this map; i didn't recall playing it ever before even within thousands of QM games under my belt - i thought maybe it was a new QM map? because on all the ones I remember your enemy also has very little initial rock space if you do. though not on this one. in any case, i still ended up winning, thankfully because my enemy didn't press me at the critical moments of the game when i had no money due to the lack of space and he had all the space in the world. he attacked me a little bit and got far more kills than he normally would have, but if he had pressed me with 100% of his units I would have lost to a much less-skilled player simply due to a grossly unfair map. most of the maps in Emp are currently unfair for another reason though: lack of working Refinery Waypoints combined with un-avoidable harvesting bugs

fixing the Refinery Waypoint bugs would make most of the maps in Emp semi-fair; because then with good micro the unfair harvesting bugs could be averted. as it now stands, averting the gameplay-ruining harvesting bugs is entirely impossible.

yes it is true that i suck playing as Hark and Ordos and if I took the time to learn how to play them then i too would be able to exploit the harvesting bugs just as much as everyone else - ie: rushing the ATR at wherever he happens to *not* be defending his harvesting since if an ATR splits up his army to defend multiple spice fields, Hark or Ordos simply needs to attack the ATR's army one piece at a time with 100% of his army, and ATR is toast. say the game has went on for $30 000 worth of unit production for each side. Since Minos take FOREVER to move, ATR needs to decide early on how to defend multiple spice fields/and/or base entrances whereas Hark and Ordos can just zip to wherever the ATR tries attacking them to give ATR the shaft; ATR can not even retreat in the middle of battle so he has to be 100% sure he's ready to attack or Lose - Hark and Ordos can always "test the water" by attacking, then retreating.

Say the ATR splits up his $30 000 worth of units to two separate spice fields that are far apart. Hark or Ordos attacks with 100% of his $30 000 vs $15 000 worth of ATR units. ATR loses half his units and there is no way his other $15 000 will be able to get to the spot of the attack in time to respond. Hark then goes on to Win the game, obviously. however, for me to exploit the harvesting bugs in such ways might be fun for a while, yet ultimately it is unfulfilling because Westwood believes that players are SUPPOSED to be able to harvest ANYWHERE they choose with 100% CONTROL and the fact that this bug was never corrected so that Westwood's belief became reality makes for very bad "strat gameplay".

if you want to put the theory that the harvesting bugs make the game really unfair to a psychlogical test just ask yourself: what do most people consider to be "ATR maps?" most common answers would be Fishers, Knife Fight, and a few other pretty small maps in which the harvesting is mostly in one place. *why* are these ATR maps? because for the most part, ATR can put all of his army in one place in order to reasonably fight back against Hark or Ordos. putting ATR on an *even playing field* with the other Houses automatically makes that map an "ATR map", apparentely. ::) that fact speaks to the reality that people are so *accustomed* to exploiting the harvesting bugs and giving ATR the shaft because of them that it's second-nature to think of it as a "natural" part of Emp gameply to do so. i am of the opinion that this is a wrongful and unfair way of thinking, and that all Houses should be on an even playing field by default in order for Emp to be a truly balanced RTS in which only skill determines the Winner

btw ethan, telling me to use bold is actually good feedback. however, maybe if you actually outlined *how* one accomplishes that, i'd take you up on that advice

nice explanaton on how emp screws you in QM but youre so demi-god like that you always conquer your hardships.....

[ken124578]

wtf, where'd my post go ???

[Taqwa11]

Nav, all my wins against you were as slitherz. Yes, I remember you quitting when your rush didn't work and I was getting ready to stomp you. No, I don't remember any game against you with playerap, but it's possible that there was one. Yes, I remember clearly the only win you ever got against me. It was Knife Fight. We were both Atreides. It was a rather long game. You got the best of me in the drone department. Other than that, I have several wins--one on one--vs. you as slitherz. You were playing as Cyrenius in each case.

Now, answer my question. What name do you now use in custom?

[rogue1896]

don't worry about it taq. he probably just made it up. he'll probably end up saying it was like about 10 months ago so he can say something like, 'You may not remember but i remember it clearly.' and nav, b4 you say STOP SPAMMING MY THREADS i'm not even talking to you so just don't even bother.

[ethan]

forgetaboutit.

navs just retarded, he might be gifted at emperor, but hes nothing in the social department.

[Elite47]

Nav if u lose so much with Atreides, then how come i win so much with them?? Of coarse its impossible to cover all those spice fields and everthing WITH MINOS because MINOS SUCK. You dont build minos until u have the advantage or unless you're on a very small map. You are not uber/elite/or a fucking demi-god or else you wouldve known this!!So quit bragging mofo!!

[BRAVO]

well navs back ;D

[rogue1896]

:D

*5 minutes later*

:D

*10 minutes later*

:D

( :D = laughing. )

[Navaros]

taq, it happened just as i said it did. your almost-exact words to playerap: "great work with those projections!" after he started making projections on knife fight {?! LOL} and i said to you guys that the game was decided before he started projecting stuff. in that game i almost took you both down all by myself, and if my ally was even a bit good we would have won for sure.

you playing me one on one with slitherz, however, or any other nick that i am aware of - that did not happen. you did not beat me one on one; you must have me confused with someone else

elite47 i have no idea what you are talking about but bikes/light/inf and/or kinjal will get owned without Minos even with Feds and prob with Sards too. ATR needs Minos to stand a chance. (not saying they need a ton of minos right at the start but you know what i mean)

[Elite47]

Then how come u lose and i win? obviously, my strat is better ::)

its like science, we both have our theories, we've both experimented with them and now comes the hypothesis: You need a better BO, strait up.

----------------

Ok since i dont play qm anymore ill just give u or anyone else my BO for atreides playing against ordos(since u obviously struggle with them):

(EDIT: qm setts, you are atreides your opponent is ordos)

Fremen,Fremen,Fac,ref,(3rd fremen,2nd fac or hangar)

que up fremen, 16 light infantry

15 bikes,3 mongeese 5 more bikes and maybe a couple minos.

start pumping out light infantry qued up to 100

RUSH WHEN U SEE THE ADVANTAGE(of coarse you need skill to do that not just a BO and quitting under 3)

[BRAVO]

sharp edges hehe ;D

[Taqwa11]

Whatever, Nav. Seems like you can't recall my past events and I can't recall yours, so unless you tell me the name you are using so I can find you, we may never play again. The ironic thing is, I've probably played you under one of my incognito names while you were using one of your own. If so, I wonder who won? LOL.

[Elite47]

judging by the advice you two give out i would say u whooped him everytime Taq ;D

[Navaros]

elite my BO is not far off from that, however i give myself *money* at the start. with that BO you are gonna run out of funds for a long time, while your enemy cranks out a ton of units. i don't see how that can work. he is sure to vastly outnumber you so how are you gonna beat him with way less units?

the reason i have trouble with ordos and hark is mostly because they can reach harvesting faster than ATR can and exploit the inability to control it due to pathfinding bugs ie: camping troopers boxed in with dusties on the empty spots of Koth during QM while the ATR economy dies with no possible remedy.

[Elite47]

nav plz start posting sensible stuff like u just did, it will get u so much farther. Now i dont mind replying to you in a conversation like attitude.

i do NOT run out of money with that BO. Infact, i have a good economy, even better than if i build fremen,fac,ref. i build Frem,Frem and i get more money because feds are cheap and im not pumping out bikes yet. So with 1 full ref it gives me extra cash because im only build fedaykin and infantry. if i were to build fremen,fac then i would have to pay for bikes,inf and feds early on and then i would be short on money.but because i build that 2nd fremen tent i now have more feds coming out and a better economy!!

---------------

This is my 2ndary BO for atreides vs hark. i wouldnt mind keeping onto my current one, but this one is almost as good(better for money and unitflow)

fac,ref,barr,fac,(barr/hangar/3rd fac)

build 1 harv,8 bikes,2 mongeese and some more bikes.

25 light infantry(as soon as you have 1 full ref and a brand new non upgraded one build your 2nd barracks and que infantry to 100)

thats about it but it works and ive only lost to ONE hark player on qm setts using atreides, it was h4rk0n3n or something like that he got me with sard elites and inkvines on Arged desert.

a tip would be when teh game start send your mino and units out farther and start walking towards the enemy base. By the time you're their you have 5-10 bikes and infantry/ maybe feds or sards if u have them. Plz dont argue with that if u dont like my advice dont take it but i know i dont have a problem with winning...