Acriku Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Hey, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth eh Edric? ;) That's what you just did in your posts. Empr, that's a fine quote of my post ;) I like your ways, I do that, too, sometimes. What I have against creationism...let's see...1) I am plagued by extremists of the christian religion at school continuously, TMA knows about this. It basically makes me want to shove a bible down their throats to shut them up. 2) I went to a church of my friend's for a few weeks, and it was overall pretty cool, good youth group going, but before the fun started there came out this priest who would touch our foreheads with a prayer, basically freaked me out ;)3) It is my opinion that religion (specifically one with a supreme and ruler god and an afterlife) started out to sooth childish fears, fill that niche of hope that we all have when we face the subject of death. So basically, whatever I do have against creationism, is from personal experiences. Nothing like a few bad apples ruining it for me eh?
Edric O Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Sounds like you've had some bad experiences there, Acriku. :) Well, I certainly understand the part about extremists at school - the more someone tries to force something down my throat, the more I hate it.But you really shouldn't judge all of us by a few rotten apples. ;)
SurlyPIG Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 "But it does say that space-time as we know it exists only within the universe. In other words, there is no such thing as "before" or "outside" - not in the usual meaning of the words, at least."Maybe so, but how can we even be sure of that? We don't know what there was before the big bang, whether it was nothing or another universe or the same universe that imploded or what. It's tough. We just can't really know..."And WHO designed it? Do you believe there was some evil mastermind behind it all, who laid a plan stretching for a few millenia?"Who knows what his/her/their intentions were? I don't pretend I do. Maybe they truly believed what they were saying. Maybe they genuinely thought the world would be a better place if everyone followed them. Maybe they were crazy. Maybe they were Dutch. (j/k) I really don't know."So, basically, I was right. You admit to all those things. And if THAT isn't hateful, then I don't know what is."Honestly, I don't see what's so hateful about that. Obviously your opinion of me is clear, but I think the only reason you're taking my comments so personally is because this is such a personal issue. You believe very faithfully in these things, and that's obviously a large part of who you are. And when I challenge or question those things, or diminish or mock them, you take that to heart. Don't. I'm not bashing you or any specific person at all. Don't take what I say to heart."As for respect... I respect them, yes. The same way I would respect a worthy enemy before going into battle against him. They are evil, but determined and extremely brave. That demands at least some respect. (though not nearly as much as those who die for a noble cause)"Honestly, I can see where you're coming from. But IMO, whether or not any cause is worthy of someone's death depends on the cause. For example, voluntarily joining the Taliban, fighting for them, and dying for them. A terrible cause. A worthless cause. A terrible and worthless death. Another example, an UNPROFOR UN soldier dies in Bosnia trying to stop a Serb and a Croat from killing each other. The cause was peace; a meaningful cause; therefore a meaningful death."Who the hell are YOU to tell them how to live their lives, or when to die? Sometimes death is preferable to living on. This was one of those times. And who are YOU to judge when a life is wasted and when it isn't?"As hard as this will be for you to believe, I care. I care about the girl that was murdered, and I'd care about you if you were the one staring down the barrel of that sadistic maniac's shotgun. I don't believe in God or an afterlife, so when I heard that story, it sounded like such a waste to me because that was it. That was the poor girl's life right there. She died expecting there to be a God to love her and heaven to accept her, and if there is not, her death will be in vein."Personally, I believe that if you have nothing to die for, you have nothing to live for."I agree."You have the right to hold that opinion, Ace. I also have the right to hold the opinion that you're a filthy and disgusting excuse for a human being.""Judge not, lest ye be judged."Even I don't think the bible is all that bad...Honestly, you don't know the fist thing about me. You've never even met me. You don't know what I believe, what a value; what makes me smile, what makes me sad. How you can hate me that much is beyond me.Acriku, I know how you feel man. Though I don't advertise it, whenever people learn I'm an atheist, I always get this wierd kind of "Wow. So you DO exist." look from them. And then there's the converters...I cannot stand them any more. I just want to live my life in peace, and be treated with dignity and respect like any other person. If I ever see another due of white-collared pamphelt-carrying bike-riding missionarie-folk ring my doorbell and ask, "Have you heard the good news?" again, I'm going to explode.There's this Moremon guy in my school who has a serious problem with any non-theist. Every time I see him, even if I'm just quietly keeping to myself, he yells something stupid at me and blames me for homosexuality, crime and pregnancy or something. One time he even threw a tomato at me while yelling, "SINNER! SINNER!".It seems everyone that knows I'm an atheist either handles it really well or really poorly.
Acriku Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 I guess we all have our bad experiences :- Sorry dude. If that mormon was in my school, I don't know what I would do. Edric, it's a little too late actually, Christianity to me which has been implanted very deep down is rediculous, and the way Christianity was long before would atleast have been tolerable.
TMA_1 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 yeah many christians taint the name of christ. Remember though guys that it is your own choice to look only at the crap. Its hard though. especially when I know the crap you go through joe. Its an arrogance. often people build them and for christians it is difficult.
emprworm Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 RESPONSES TO ACELETHAL There is absolutely no sign He exists. None. Therefore believing in him is illogical.there are many signs that he exists. You just don't interpret them as such, yet to me they are clearer than a morning sunrise. Fully logical, just not in your mind, which is a mass of gray material weighing in at just a few pounds. Therefore, you have no right to make an empirical claim that belief in God is irrational objectively- it is just irrational according to your 1.5 Kg brain is all. For all we know there could be a planet in orbit around the sun constantly opposite from earth. How would we know it's there? Lets say it's in closer than mercury and its camoflaged. Ships cannot reach it. But it is still believed to exist. We have absolutely no reason to believe it is there. We have no reason to believe it's not there either. Would you believe in this planet emprworm? of course I wouldnt. there is no reason to. If yes, then you are consistent. If no, then please explain to me how this is any different than believing in God.because there is evidence for God. There is no evidence for such planet.Anyway, unlike those debaters I don't delude myself into thinking that I know the origins of the universe. It is far more complicated than we can understand at this pointlol, what a dodge. Of course, when it all comes down everyone dodges my original argument, which is more solid than a neutron star.3 possibilities. Yet atheists seem to think they can empirically declare #1 absurd and #2 rational. How can you do this? If you say all are illogical then bye bye atheism as well. The big bang theory DOES outline how the universe came to be, but not WHY. It states what the universe is, but doesn't so much as allude to why it occurred."WHY" -- is not a question I was asking. It does not say HOW it came to be either. Here, let me illustrate by asking you a simple question about the Big Bang: was there a cause? Note: this is NOT asking "why"And just in case you have no idea regarding the answer, then perhaps the Big Bang indeed does NOT explain how the universe came to be. And if you think the answer could POSSIBLY be "No" - bye bye laws of physics.If "yes" then how do you avoid option #1, the creationist view?Why would you automatically assume I believed in any of them? They're all illogical. They all defy the laws of physics. There's no way to know which one, if any of them are true yet. option #1 does not defy any law of physics. It is the only one that is consistent with the natural laws, hence, to ME, it is most rational (note that I am not going to be as arrogant and call ALL atheists irrational)The big bang theory outlines how this universe came into existence.no it doesn't. It's just a guessing game right now. Anybody's scientific guess is as good as the next guy's.Well....so now you are saying that my view of OPTION #1, the creationist view is now just as good as the next guy's...ACELETHALS view?Make up your mind. What if religous organizations controlled the right to live? But they dont. Not in this nation at least. TUrn your eye to the middle east for that scenario.Would you believe then?not if it was illogical Or how about this; if you were very poor, living in say, a Buddhist-dominated society, living on the streets, would you convert to Buddhism to gain access to the social services and charities? No, you wouldn't.no i wouldnt. Bah, witholding the needs of life in order to convert people. That's pretty freakin' low.very low. I'm glad no Christian organization that I support and am aware of does this.
sneezer3 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 "Judge not, lest ye be judged."Even I don't think the bible is all that bad...There's this Moremon guy in my school who has a serious problem with any non-theist. Every time I see him, even if I'm just quietly keeping to myself, he yells something stupid at me and blames me for homosexuality, crime and pregnancy or something. One time he even threw a tomato at me while yelling, "SINNER! SINNER!".Belive me. if you have ever heard of what the belive it is crazy. and it points a lot towards women. and when that die ther supose to be haveing babys forever. :PYou taking that verse out of context. if you could find a reffrace for me and can probbly show you how. and what it is talking about in that area.
hilamobster13 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 i just have one question here: maybe the big bang did start the universe as we know it. but what started the universe before that? how did whatever it was that started the big bang come to exist? does this argument eventually lead to something out of nothing?
hilamobster13 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 that certainly seems to take a lot of irrational faith to beleive in.
Edric O Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Well, Ace, it seems our argument is finally calming down. Thank you. :)Maybe so, but how can we even be sure of that? We don't know what there was before the big bang, whether it was nothing or another universe or the same universe that imploded or what. It's tough. We just can't really know...There was no "before". 4 dimensional space-time was created at the instant of the Big Bang. Space and time itself were created then. Therefore there was no "before" the Big Bang. The Big Bang is the beginning of time.Who knows what his/her/their intentions were? I don't pretend I do. Maybe they truly believed what they were saying. Maybe they genuinely thought the world would be a better place if everyone followed them. Maybe they were crazy. Maybe they were Dutch. (j/k) I really don't know.Well, I can understand that. This is a perfectly reasonable point of view. But a short time ago you had a very different opinion... You started making wild assumptions about what they wanted to do.Honestly, I don't see what's so hateful about that. Obviously your opinion of me is clear, but I think the only reason you're taking my comments so personally is because this is such a personal issue. You believe very faithfully in these things, and that's obviously a large part of who you are. And when I challenge or question those things, or diminish or mock them, you take that to heart. Don't. I'm not bashing you or any specific person at all. Don't take what I say to heart.Ah, you don't understand the way I think. I wouldn't take it to heart if you bashed me personally. In fact, you can insult and flame me all you want, and I won't mind. Take a look at this topic and notice my reaction to personal attacks.What DOES offend me is if you insult my ideals, my beliefs, or the people I love/admire. I always take that very, very personally.Honestly, I can see where you're coming from. But IMO, whether or not any cause is worthy of someone's death depends on the cause.Yes, I completely agree. But the only one with the right to judge the worth of the cause is the person himself/herself... And no matter the cause, dying for it is still an act that demands respect. (more or less, depending on the way of death...)At least that's how I think.As hard as this will be for you to believe, I care. I care about the girl that was murdered, and I'd care about you if you were the one staring down the barrel of that sadistic maniac's shotgun. I don't believe in God or an afterlife, so when I heard that story, it sounded like such a waste to me because that was it.It might seem like a waste to you, but not to us. The only one with the right to judge if his/her life would be wasted or not is the person in question. That girl did not waste her life, because she did not believe she was wasting it.I appreciate that you care. We also care about you (believe it or not) and do not want you to go to hell. But neither of us has the right to impose his care upon the other..."Judge not, lest ye be judged."Even I don't think the bible is all that bad...You are right. And I apologize.Honestly, you don't know the fist thing about me. You've never even met me. You don't know what I believe, what a value; what makes me smile, what makes me sad. How you can hate me that much is beyond me.You're right. I don't. But you also don't know much about me... For one thing, my hate is always powerful, but very short-lived. Yes, I did hate you that much when I wrote those things. But not any more. I never go on hating someone unless I think that the feeling is mutual. And now I see that it's not.
Cyborg Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 LOL! Cyborg, Ace's point is that ALL Christians are irrational....perhaps foolish.And you dare accuse me of being intolerant?Please point out a statement where I have said "all atheists are idiots."Tables are turned on you, Mr. Cyborg. Since by your own admission you agree that ALL Christians are basically idiots, I think I will now Quote Acriku:Cyborg (and Acriku) what do you have against creationism? Your statements show much hatred for it, although I don't know why. Someone who chooses not to follow blindly to some Guth Space-Time-Foam or self-caused universe that violates all laws of physics (pretty fuunny) is very smart IMO. In this aspect atleast. But there are a few bad apples, basically arseholes who are theists as well. So please drop your hate. And that debate shows nothing, nothing except the knowledge of the one, or lack thereof. Sorry, Emprworm, if I have said anything stupid.But I really don't think that I anywhere her in this topic has said that your religion is stupid. Have I?Nor have I shown any hatred of it.I have tried to be polite in my discussion and only agreed in acelethal on that willing to die for god thing.DO you get me now?
emprworm Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 ACELETHAL:That was the poor girl's life right there. She died expecting there to be a God to love her and heaven to accept her, and if there is not, her death will be in vein.If there is no God, all of our lives are in vein. If there is a God, and you reject Him, your life will still be in vein anyway.
sneezer3 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 "Judge not, lest ye be judged."Even I don't think the bible is all that bad...You are right. And I apologize.You know. the funny thing is. that passege is actully talking about hypocrites? Read matthew 7:5 a few verses up for you self. i haven't seen Edric doing anything or saying anything that would make him a hypocrite. ;) <Aside from wicca thread but he corrected that. and btw there are prayer sites that have seen as many answers to them just about from the same people that put requests <duh> into them. as was requests put into them.>
Anathema Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 For all we know there could be a planet in orbit around the sun constantly opposite from earth. How would we know it's there? Lets say it's in closer than mercury and its camoflaged. Ships cannot reach it. But it is still believed to exist. We have absolutely no reason to believe it is there. We have no reason to believe it's not there either. Would you believe in this planet emprworm? of course I wouldnt. there is no reason to.Actually there would be evidence to prove the existence of such a planet. If another planet passes by, its trajectory will be slightly affected by this new planets mass. This is how they proved the existence of a planet beyond Pluto.But I don't suppose that's the point :)
slaphapy Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 [quote author=Earthnuker link=board=2;threadid=7754;start=#msg116519 date=1041705339 Actually there would be evidence to prove the existence of such a planet. If another planet passes by, its trajectory will be slightly affected by this new planets mass. This is how they proved the existence of a planet beyond Pluto.actually there r no planets beyond Pluto... only TNO's (trans-neptunial objects) .. Pluto is also being argued about whether it will be called a TNO or not.
slaphapy Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 sorry about the message above i couldnt' get it to cooperate for me :( :'( :'(the part that's under the first quote is what i said.
Acriku Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Sneezer Edric has many times shown himself to commit hypocrisy, but we ALL have as well. We are ALL hypocrits. It's a way of life we all choose to dwell in, even without knowing.
TMA_1 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 "You are right. And I apologize." --edricY"ou know. the funny thing is. that passege is actully talking about hypocrites? Read matthew 7:5 a few verses up for you self. i haven't seen Edric doing anything or saying anything that would make him a hypocrite. <Aside from wicca thread but he corrected that. and btw there are prayer sites that have seen as many answers to them just about from the same people that put requests <duh> into them. as was requests put into them." ---sneezertake that log out of your eye before you take out the mote in his sneezer. be careful not to be a hypocrite of yourself.
sneezer3 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Sneezer Edric has many times shown himself to commit hypocrisy, but we ALL have as well. We are ALL hypocrits. It's a way of life we all choose to dwell in, even without knowing. Yes but has he not corrected it? Well. anyway. i simply was pointing out that ACElethal was takeing that out of context. take that log out of your eye before you take out the mote in his sneezer. be careful not to be a hypocrite of yourself.If you can show me an area what i am<Present tense> a hypocrite i will do my best to correct it. i was simply pointing out he was takeing that out of context. if you think i'm a hypocrite then show me where. and don't make a half way accusation post "take that log out of your eye before you take out the mote in his sneezer." If you do not think it is wrong to take the bible out of context then thats your problem. but i will expose you in ever single area i see you doing it in. and you can be sure of that.
TMA_1 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 "a little knowledge leavens up". there is some more for you. :)
IxianMace Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 If there is no God, all of our lives are in vein. If there is a God, and you reject Him, your life will still be in vein anyway.As an Atheist, I do not understand the logic behind this statement. Can you please clarify what it means in detail?Are you suggesting that if you have no God (in the case of Atheists) that your life is in vein (as in not worth living, or living for no purpose?) What exactly do you mean by 'life in vein'? ???
Acriku Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Without purpose. Like dying in vein, or dying without purpose.
Anathema Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Our lives are not in vain, as long as you contribute to build a better world for future generations.
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