Noah's children

[sneezer3]

can we trust what they passed down from being free of any changes?

Nope sure can't use logic on this one.

Example

I tell DJ the Gobalopper in real life is fat.

He tell's Ordos45 Gob has a big lump in his chest

Ordos45 tells Rogue that Gob has a vary strange lump in his high upper chest.

Rogue tells Exatreates Gob has a strange lump in his jaw.

Exatreates tells Earthnuker somebody broke Gobs jaw recently.

Earthnuker tells me somebody broke Gobs jaw and he is in the hospilel.

<Note no offence meant to Gob or anybody else. i was just giveing an example>

Thats the baseic way rumors work. and over time what you get in the end chances are aren't right. Anybody that has read about how Robin hood died probbly knows what i'm talking about. That + other language's it wouldn't take much to get false stuff about it. just 1 guy outta hundreds.

But i know the bible was passed down somehow. maybe by them. but i think this was before it was writen <Little after adem & eve> Then all of that stuff could have happend after the flood. However if gods good enough to flood the earth and shut the door on the ark. Then he has to be good enough to let his word survive right?

[quoudam72]

The biggest difference with all the flood stories is that only one gives details and a blueprint about the whole event.

[TMA_1]

also, though many cultures have flood myths, like quondum said, or skywalker ;) . They each are very different from the gilgamesh epic and the flood story in the bible. There are some though that are remarkably simaler.

[Edric O]

Edric is just afraid of science and that somehow christianity is wrong. So he will twist and change everythi ng he needs to in order to keep his religion in sync (n'sync.lol sorry back to topic) with science.

No. It's just that, unlike you, I know an allegory when I see it. One of the reasons Christianity is in such a mess right now is that some of us try to blindly and baselessly fight against science instead of embracing it as a way to understand the inner workings and beauty of God's Creation.

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

- Albert Einstein

[Anathema]

He really said that? :)

[Edric O]

Yes, he did. And you can look it up on http://www.quoteland.com/

Useful little site, that. :)

[Anathema]

I got this book that has a lot of quotes too.

Politicians are people who promise to build a bridge, even if there is no river.

- Nikita Kruschev

[quoudam72]

also, though many cultures have flood myths, like quondum said, or skywalker ;) . They each are very different from the gilgamesh epic and the flood story in the bible. There are some though that are remarkably simaler.

Cough, cough OK TMA_1. They are each indeed similar to the Gilgamesh epic and Noah and his ark but many have never heard of the Twelve Tablets of Creation from Ashurbanipal's library. In this we find an earlier version of the flood myth which has some differences one being that the god that caused the flood was punished by Mother Isthar who did not want her children destroyed. Also gnostic literature has kept this view of the flood-causing God as an evil destroyer of humanity, and the Goddess as its preserver.

This Gnostic interpretation had both Babylonian and Hellenic roots. Greeks said the primal sea-mother Themis gave Deucalion and his wife occult knowledge ("light") of how to create human beings from stones, "the bones of their Mother," i.e., of the earth. Raising up living people from stones or bones was a popular miracle. Jesus mentioned it, and Ezekiel's God claimed to have done it in the valley of bones (Ezekiel 37). Remember the Greeks also translated the Bible into their language.

[TMA_1]

actually the biblical flood wasnt really to punish man per se. It was meant to destroy the human-angelic offspring. Creatures that we call angels came to the earth and cohabitated with humans and created a half breed. This would distort the line of humans and mess up God's plan. You can read this in the talmud, book of enoch, the bible, septugent. Many places. Many other flood myths have to do with ridding of a race of super beings. In fact these half breeds in the bible are called, "hero's of old". great creatures that had to be destroyed because of God's plan. Also the gnostics are extremely pegan in their beliefs. Read the early church fathers and see how they are looked upon by normal christianity. They really screwed around with the bible and christs words.

[TMA_1]

And edric, you have never stated your proof that these stories are allegory. Read the books in hebrew. Which I have. Then you may be able to argue. Till then you dont have enough information to do so.

[quoudam72]

Yes TMA_1 I am aware of the anglic beings who came to Earth and cohabitated with the humans. I was not disagreeing with that or what you mentioned about the information being in the talmud, book of enoch, the bible, septugent nor this being the reason the earth was flooded. I was in this case showing how we have these myths and how they almost relate to one another. Those myths that deal with ridding the earth of those "super beings" are actually pointing to the same that you speak of those same angelic beings. The proper name for these creatures would be Nephilim who are mentioned in Genesis 6:4 as the offspring of 'the sons of God' and 'the daughters of men'.

Stories told by the Babylonians, Sumarians and the Meso-American cultures only to name a few, all clearly show that the common understanding of ancient time was that the fallen host had committed fornication with women in the period before the flood. The legend of the TITANS... from Greek mythology, the Titans were a family of giant gods who were the offspring of Uranus (heaven) and Gaea (earth). The most famous of the Titans was Cronus, who killed his father. The Titans were imprisoned in a section of the underworld called Tartarus. The apostle Peter states that for their sins, these angels had been tartarosas, (translates literally as "confining them to Tartarus" (also known in the Bible as "the Abyss"). This is the same Tartarus where Greek mythology says the Titans were imprisoned. Legend also informs us that Tiahuanaco was built by a race of Giants after their homeland had been destroyed by a great flood. The idea that evil angels mated with human women and had offspring (the nephilim) seems laughable in this modern era, but it seems to have been widely accepted as fact in the ancient world. I think you and I already know that truth can be stranger than fiction.

[Edric O]

The idea that evil angels mated with human women and had offspring (the nephilim) seems laughable in this modern era, but it seems to have been widely accepted as fact in the ancient world.

Just replace "angels" with "aliens" in that statement and it suddenly becomes a serious topic of discussion for some people... ::)

[Edric O]

And edric, you have never stated your proof that these stories are allegory.

They have to be allegories. It is the only possible logical conclusion. Let's assume for a minute that evolution is true. Now, there's NO way you're ever gonna make 5th Century BC shepards believe that their ancestors were apes!

There CANNOT be any science in the Bible. Why? Because science constantly changes as our understanding of the world grows! The Bible was meant to last forever. So which science shall we use for it? Roman science, modern-day science or future science? Either way, you end up with a very narrow timeframe in which that science is "valid".

How do I tell which parts of the Bible are methaphors (or allegories, etc.) and which parts are facts? Simple: Everything than can be understood by people in every century is fact (e.g. Jesus went there and did that). But "sensitive" scientific subjects (like Creation) are not facts, because the actual facts cannot be understood by all the people throughout history!

Just imagine if the Bible used the scientific knowledge of the year 5000. It would look like complete jibberish to us.

[dczx]

Edric,

You haven't refuted the stories of the flood/arc present in nearly every culture, Man, that's one big allegory! Don't forget the Bible is backed up historically on a lot of accounts, for example, the coins existed, rulers existed, etc. There is also a lot of archeological evidence. I've never heard of archeological evidence being called allegory.

[Andrew]

so does the bible mention dinosaurs? or something like that? i dont know, i know that dinosaurs existed. so god destroyed them and created humans?

(or are we referring to the non god type histories?) :-

[dczx]

The bible refers to Behemoth in Job... who sounds very much like a brontosaurus... some might say a hippo, but it says, "He moves his tail like a cedar" v17 which doesn't sound like one.

Job 40:15-24

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Job+40&NIV_version=yes&language=english

and also Leviathan:

Job 41

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Job+41&NIV_version=yes&language=english

these are mentioned throughout the Bible as probably the worst beasts around... maybe most were killed in the flood?

[The_Sadukar]

dczx might I surgesst that you read the footnotes, anyway, this is getting werider and wirider.

[sneezer3]

There CANNOT be any science in the Bible. Why? Because science constantly changes as our understanding of the world grows! The Bible was meant to last forever. So which science shall we use for it? Roman science, modern-day science or future science? Either way, you end up with a very narrow timeframe in which that science is "valid".

Your wrong. The bible has even had science *AHEAD* of us. Example. A long time ago they thought the world was flat. Columbus however belived otherwise why? The bible said so. and it turned out he din't fall off the earth.

There have even been some more recent ones. There are a lot i can't remember. But here is another one.

The person that found out about the currents in the water. <I can't remember his name> Actully found out by reading the bible.

"Psalms 8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the sea."

There is a Statchue of him somewhere. I think it has something ingraved about that on it to. but i'm not 100% sure

I'l tell you all i do remember of the most recent ones. The most recent thing was Something about a king in the bible. They din't think there was any such king. Then the next think they knew. They found evedence of the king. I would be more spsific. But i can't remember much of it.

Don't mean to attack you. But i wanna point out that your wrong.

EDIT I can't answer everthing you might say. but I'm open to examples of what you said before.

[dczx]

I'm just trying to keep an open mind. The footnotes say hippo, but a hippo doesn't have a tail like cedars. The original greek doesn't have footnotes, by the way. heh

dczx might I surgesst that you read the footnotes, anyway, this is getting werider and wirider.

[sneezer3]

I'm just trying to keep an open mind. The footnotes say hippo, but a hippo doesn't have a tail like cedars. The original greek doesn't have footnotes, by the way. heh

Maybe he meant somebodys footnotes.

But there isn't any such thing has an "original greek"

[Edric O]

Your wrong. The bible has even had science *AHEAD* of us. Example. A long time ago they thought the world was flat. Columbus however belived otherwise why? The bible said so. and it turned out he din't fall off the earth.

There have even been some more recent ones. There are a lot i can't remember. But here is another one.

The person that found out about the currents in the water. <I can't remember his name> Actully found out by reading the bible.

"Psalms 8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the sea."

Coincidences. Based on very vague Bible verses. For example, "paths of the sea" doesn't necessarely have to mean sea currents. It can be interpreted a number of ways.

I'l tell you all i do remember of the most recent ones. The most recent thing was Something about a king in the bible. They din't think there was any such king. Then the next think they knew. They found evedence of the king. I would be more spsific. But i can't remember much of it.

That belongs to history. And of course you can find history in the Bible! The Old Testament, among other things, records the history of the Hebrews! When I said "science" I meant things like physics, astronomy, geography, etc. Disciplines that relate to the natural world, not to human affairs.

The bible refers to Behemoth in Job... who sounds very much like a brontosaurus... some might say a hippo, but it says, "He moves his tail like a cedar" v17 which doesn't sound like one.

Oh, so there were dinosaurs in the Middle East 4000 years ago? Don't make me laugh! Maybe "cedar" is a mistranslation. Maybe he saw the hippo from an odd angle. Who knows? There are many more reasonable explanations than saying he saw a sauropod.

You haven't refuted the stories of the flood/arc present in nearly every culture, Man, that's one big allegory!

No, I haven't. That is because I can't. But, in all fairness, you have to admit that there is no actual proof of the Flood. What we do have are flood myths scattered everywhere, which means that something must have happened. Now, was it an actual flood or something that got interpreted as a flood? It could be the catastrophic end of the last ice age, which resulted in very rapid flooding of the Earth's coastlines (where most people lived).

To be honest, as a christian, I don't think that the flood in itself is that important. What is important is the lesson it teaches. About human nature and sin.

[Acriku]

Hmm Edric refuting stories of the bible? And me agreeing with some of them? And me naked? :O

The Bible was not ahead of them in science, it had verses that could be interpreted many different ways, and even so how could there not be paths in the sea? They would've known things float in water, and move in the water, thus creating a path. And yeah...uh no dinos with humans sorry ;) Just your average alligator/crocodile and various turtles, but nothing as big as the brontosaurus (more correctly known as the apatosaurus)

[Falconius]

If you look carefully at the Bible and especially the chronicles you should be able to calculate that Adam lived roughly 6000 years ago.

Now keep this in mind. In 16,000 BC the Bering Strait was occupied by a ice bridge between Asia and North America, across which the ancestors of the Native Americans migrated.

How can we all be Noah's children if we are not all Adam's children? -> If science is to be believed.

(And although scientists disagree about many things -> science is generally very believable)

About the flood -> take the example of the Sphinx statue in Egipt. This statue show signs of severe water erosion. This statue is in the Sahara Desert. This desert is believed to be almost 10 000 years old (since the end of the last ice age). There are also the matter of whale fossils deep inland. There are also a few instances of marine fossils along with forest and plain animal fossils deposited together -> as one would expect to find where there was a truly massive flood.

Thus there are reasonable scientific proof that the Biblical type flood is possible.

[TMA_1]

edric is basing his idea that they are allegory based on his, and others translations. Edric, why dont you go down to some kabbalists or hasadem in isreal and tell them its allegory.lol

Also there is an original greek.lol he means coinae greek. The original texts is what he is saying. And no there were no footnotes to the bible back then.lol most of what you call "books" in the new testament were letters. they were just recopied and recopied. big and important theological books and arguments on the biblical letters or books of the new testament came a little later.

[Acriku]

Default Atreides, glad to have a mature discussion. First off, let's get with the Sphinx. The sphinx has been found to have been built in stages, the front end being 3000 years from the back end. Pharoah Khafre found the Sphinx not yet completed, so he repaired it. Over the many millenia, repairs underwent. So, the early end was eroded by strong rain water, and the later end was eroded by wind and sand. The strong rain water does not suggest a world-wide flood, it suggests strong rain water. And American egyptologists claim that the last rain fall strong enough to erode the body of the sphinx dates back to 12,000 years ago (appr) after the last Ice Age, and back then Egypt was not a desert at all but in a sub-tropical climate. They theorize that an early civilization built the body and head associating astronomical figures, and with the heavy rainfall during that time period it eroded. Now much later comes the Pharoah, who sees this not fully completed, and repairs it. Him being egyption, disagrees with the head and makes it an egyptian head. This new head cannot be eroded by heavy rainfall like the body, and it is eroded by the wind and sand. The links are as followed:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/lemmers-jan/Seraph/Immortal%20Dreams/The%20sphinx%20-%20Egypt.htm

http://www.mysteries.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2,3.htm

http://fusionanomaly.net/sphinx.html

Now about the whale fossils deep inland. Scientists claim that animals become noticeably larger as they move more outwards of the forests, and towards more open spaces (which makes sense). The whale fossils inland actually proves that whales evolved from land animals. Read more here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/change/deeptime/eocene.html

The combination of marine fossils and land animals is something I cannot take note of, as I am no paleontologist and do not have the information at hand. This does not suggest an enormous flood alone, as many things could have happened for this, and yet still you don't give me enough information to go on. If you want to further discuss this matter, please provide your proof that there such exists animal fossils with marine fossils and with a statistic on how many.

Thus there is no reasonable scientific proof that the Biblical type flood is possible.