Do aliens exist

[Edric O]

TMA, we usually don't agree because your arguments are usually completely unsupported by fact.

I don't suppose you have any evidence of that...

I didn't mean it as an argument. I only expressed my opinion (my belief) in order to put my previous statements into context.

They might evolve intelligence, which would give them the ability to create those long ranged weapons and to invent that TNT. Of course it doesn't happen naturally, lol.

Why is it so obvious? What reason do we have to assume that ranged weapons are any more unlikely to be evolved than intelligence?

Note that I didn't say "long ranged weapons". I meant features such as detachable spines that a creature can throw. And if they were also poisonous, they would be a great asset. Why don't more species have something similar?

Why aren't there any animals with wheels?

Because not everything can be evolved.

Edric, my theory is that intelligence is a random mutation, and if it does occur [...]

Yes, IF it occurs... But what if it can't?

[Caid Ivik]

Intelligence can't be evolved. There are much kinds with bones, hearts, brains, eyes and other biological improvements. But intelligence has only one - the chosen.

[Acriku]

Intelligence is a byproduct of an evolved characteristic, like say self-awareness.

If it can't? Well we'll never know until we examine a species in the exact same conditions and circumstances we were in...

TMA, if a species can't mate with part of it's own, it becomes a different species. As there are different species of mosquito's, because they can't mate. We all know this, so let's go forward. The fishies (gone gold fishes) could not mate with it's own on the other side of the cavein, so thus by our standards it is a different species. If this went further, and the conditions became more diverse, the species would probably begin to look totally different than the other side fishies.

What do you mean the chosen? An ape can outsmart a stranger in its land, and thus intelligent in that aspect, so it is chosen?

[TMA_1]

I dont see any evidance of these fish not being able to mate with its original spieces, so there dorko.lol :P

and all animals have an important purpose and are "chosen" for their role in life.

[SurlyPIG]

they lost their eyesight because it wasnt required. They still stayed to the same basic build and structure of its original ancestor.

Did you not read my post? Their structure didn't stay the same. The eyeless couldn't mate with the fish w/ sight, thus creating a new species. If their structure was the same they'd be compatable to mate.

Also I dont care about your views on the bible.

I don't much care for yours either. This thread isn't about your take on the bible. If you want to start a thread about it, go right ahead and do so. I encourage it. But this is a thread about science and evolution. It just isn't the right place for it. It'd be like me going into one of the many, many religion threads and posting stuff about paleontological evidence of evolution. That might not piss you off but I bet you'd find it pretty annoying...

You obviously dont care much for it.lol I suggest not being so hostle towards other opinion. I am not angry at evoltionists, I just dont agree with what they say. It contridicts what I believe so I am obviously not going to agree. Havent proven it so far.

This is exactly the answer I expected...the second I so much as even allude to the possible suggestion that I disagree with the bible, I'm suddenly "hostile" because it's your religious belief. If you recall, I purposely didn't post my views on this subject because I know you wouldn't want to hear them and I knew you't take it offensively. Like I said to Edric, this thread has turned almost entirely into a scientific debate, until you two showed up of course. Can't there be one thread free of biblical references? One thread where proof can be debated? One thread free of religous bias? Just one? Don't take that the wrong way, I'm not discouraging you to talk about your beliefs at all, I'm just saying this is an inappropreate thread to do so in. Wouldn't you find it frustrating when you ask "Why have you drawn that conclusion despite known astronomic statistics and geological data?" and you get the answer, "Because God said so." It just makes me sigh and roll my eyes...sorry but it does. Maybe I'm just getting sick of it in science class and I'm coming down on you, but can't you see my point? It's just not the right place...

[TMA_1]

nah it wouldnt annoy me. Every time a religion thread is made somebody talks about the growth and development of mankind. evolution included. You type too much man. shorten it down into cohesive structured sentances. You write with way too many useless words and sentances.

[Acriku]

Efficiency is never a man's virtue, only a programmed evermind. *Loves the Butlerian Jihad book*

[SurlyPIG]

nah it wouldnt annoy me. Every time a religion thread is made somebody talks about the growth and development of mankind. evolution included. You type too much man. shorten it down into cohesive structured sentances. You write with way too many useless words and sentances.

It already has annoyed you as evident in that last post of yours. I could care less how you link evolution to religion or how you explain it, this thread wasn't and isn't dealing with that topic. And BTW I have to type long posts in order to explain my position fully otherwise you'll go right off the wagon, completely misinterpret everything I say then all of a sudden I'm hostile. If you want me to make shorter posts, like this one, then YOU should read my actual words not any underlying tone you think is implied. You wouldn't get so offended by everything...

[Caid Ivik]

[quote author=Acriku

[Acriku]

Hmm, this is where it gets a little confusing, as we don't really know what exactly intelligence is. Some of those things may be from instinct, yet evolved instinct (you can change your instincts, just as a martial artist can train him to have instincts that act differently to a situation).

[SurlyPIG]

Intelligence is relative. It is the sum of the ability to learn, to adapt, the capacity to learn, memory, and many other factors. There's nothing that makes our intelligence radically different from monkeys. The factors of our intelligence simply add up more.

[Caid Ivik]

The instinct is programmed behaviour. Human superiority is in ability to do anything on his will or fantasy.

[Edric O]

Like it or not, as Acriku says, we don't really know what intelligence is.

There is only the fact that humans have done things that no other creature can. Apes have the same physical abilities as us. Yet only we conquered the Earth. And we are the only living beings (other than rogue bacteria) that are capable of space flight. All thanks to our intelligence.

[TMA_1]

I beg to differ. Intelligence for humans runs toward the meta-physical

[Edric O]

That's what I said.

[TMA_1]

yeah I am just dumb and put all my thoughts into the shortest amount of words I can.lol

[SurlyPIG]

Intelligence is simply a word for a natural phenomenon occurring in life. Some define intelligence is the capacity to learn. Others defince it as the ability to obtain memory. Some might call it the ability to process, predict, and analyze. Your definition of intelligence is opinionionated. It might be quite different from the next guy's, but it could be equally as valid. It's one of the hardest things to describe and to judge. Perhaps we can do so by the size of an organism's brain? How much of the brain is used? The balance of sensory receptors, memory portions, emotional responders, and other subdivisions of the brain. An organism can have the best senses in existance, but it can be dumb as a post and not be able to process what it senses. Or it could be a genius, but have little or no method of input and output for it to put it's intelligence into use. Though this field is one of the oldest in science, it's still one of the freshest and most interesting.

[TMA_1]

I suggest reading some books by oliver sacks ACE. you do seem extremely smart. He is interesting because he takse various case studies of problems involving the brain and talks about them. they are absolutely facsinating! Some movies have been based on his case studies, such as Awakenings and At First Sight. I highly suggest reading them. He does not believe in a higher power but in many cases he does admit that we hardly know anything about the brain's mechanics. Something beyond us is at hand. I just wish people understood. One of my physics instructors who is very well read, (he's also a buddhist) says he feels sorry for people who dont involve themselves with the things beyond us as humans. I have talked a lot with him about buddhism and stuff and he is a great guy. I trust his words on it.

[pointybum]

The Man Who Thought His Wife Was a Hat ;)

One such great book by Messrs Sacks.

[SurlyPIG]

Thanks for the recs you guys, I'll look into that. I've always been baffled by how we can design complex supercomputers, send people into space, but we still not almost nothing about how the brain works.

[Acriku]

Ah, we don't know how it works, but we know it works :)

[SurlyPIG]

And if we DO find out how it works, we'll be left with the even bigger question of why it works. :O

[Caid Ivik]

yeah I am just dumb and put all my thoughts into the shortest amount of words I can.lol

That's sign of your intelligence, only dumb one needs 50 kB to explain his thoughts ;)

[pointybum]

Intelligence is measured with ability, and if you measure ability with survival, death by natural selection by a smarter cause encourages intelligence growth. This intelligence growth encourages the learning curve and logical problem solving, which together comes with experience, experience and its frequency offers better survival tools.

Here we are today. We consider every human being as intelligent, greater in some areas, and poor in others.

If you look at our ecosystem, we run the planet over the top of the natural habitats of creatures that have been hear before us. We have kicked them out of their own natural patches and forced to live around our own. Obviously this is not an emotional thing but a death by natural selection. If it isnt that, then it will be domestication.

Basic farming, then intellgent farming, and then to a village, town, city, and before long they are networked together and we have it today as globalisation.

We have systematically bullied all species off their territory and made it our own - not with malice but with instinctive thought for survival.

Our hands are the best in the world - intelligence came from the use of our hands - our hands are what makes us successful above any living thing on this planet today. Hold your right hand up and touch each finger with your right thumb, and then repeat the process with your left hand.

Name me a creature that can deliberately do that - such precise control of dexterity, even our closest ancestral relatives cannot even perform such a simple feat.

So, if we do get alien visitations, chances are they will have the use of limbs similar to ours. Their own survival code would be similar. Lets face it, if you landed/flew/hovvered anywhere on earth that is heavily populated, the widespread panic and hostility would scare our brothers away. The use of stealth would be the logical approach and thats how in the last 50 years, with the advancements of measuring and recording technology, more sightings and mysteries had occurred than any other time.

If they land one day, I hope they dont pick afghanistan. ;D

[Caid Ivik]

If they will see us as enemies, it is possible alien landing in Afghanistan would give us an advantage. They will bring their inferior weapons ;D