Evolution and Creation

[Inoculator9]

I am a Jew by race. I have a lot of family members who are jewish and are liberal, very liberal. For some people being Jewish is just being Jewish by race, and not religion.

[emprworm]

yes, Innoculator. I know that. Many Jews are by race only. Some who are Jewish by race are actually Christian (called messianic jews)

I was just wondering about Acriku

[Acriku]

I am a Jew by race, and when I was young I was by religion. Now, only race.

[Inoculator9]

I'd probably be Jewish now if it weren't fpr my mom. She always had weird religious ideas. I always have celebrated Jewish holidays and for a few years was actually Jewish (religion), but no longer.

[Acriku]

I still celebrate the holidays, because my family still believe I believe in the religion. I doubt I'll ever tell them, or slowly tell them if I do.

[Inoculator9]

I'd advise working out an argument for yourself and telling them. I don't think I could stand tons of exposure to people who believe in a religion I don't, and think that I believe it too. Unless your father is a rabbi or something, in which case you'd probably have to live with it if you want to be around your dad.

[pointybum]

That means all religion - it sounds very zombiefied but I am trying to get behind the part before religion shaped mankind. A time machine trip, if you like. What would the world be like then?

That is an impossible question. The effects of religion on history are too many to count, and extremely complex. Religion is inseparable from history.

Without religion, civilization would be immensely different from what we see today. It is impossible to predict what it would be like. Too many factors are involved.

Mmm.. No more than complex than we have it today?

I dont have difficulty visualising it, whether thats because I have a vivid imagination, or perhaps because of my neutral upbringing.

Some would argue about the impossibility of thinking of a planet without religion involved, but the Planet of the Apes movie done a good job at turning the tables back on people. Yeah, I know, it's a movie but still, it left a thought in my mind just like it did to millions of others.

But as you can see in this sensitive topic, conflicts of opinion keep firing back and forth just like it does in everyday life, and on a larger scale country-wise. Incredibly, the opinions are all base on heresay, nothing concrete, nothing proven, and all on the wall of hope that nobody can see, but just an interpretation in their minds.

Would the world be a nicer place if there werent any religion?

I havent a clue Credic. I thought you might be able to tell me.

[emprworm]

o well, dont have to be jewish by religion to agree on one thing for sure: if Israel successfully revolts against Palestine, and Palestine loses, then they need to just shut up and deal with it: Israel gets their land back, plain and simple.

[Anathema]

Israel gets their land back? May I remind you that they took the land from the Palestinians who lived there (they lived there before, but they left, so that's no argument).

Israel revolt? They are the opressors, and the Palestinians are the opressed. If you don't know that you are truly blinded. Israel could easily wipe out the Palestinians if the international community would let them.

You don't really seem to like Palestinians- what's up with that? They just want a home, just like the Israelians wanted. Just because a few of them go nuts and blow themselves up in public doesn't mean the civilians have no rights.

[emprworm]

Israel revolt? They are the opressors, and the Palestinians are the opressed.

blah blah blah. Ever hear of a word called "revolution?" The losers of a revolution usually like to whine about oppression. But then those who win the revolution were also oppressed prior to revolting (if you dont think jews were oppressed prior to 1960 in Israel, think again).

REvolutions happen. They happen all the time. If you lose, then well...you lost the land. How do you think America got its land? How do you think you got YOUR land? Someone at some point in history either conquered or revolted. An internal revolution is none of your business. Ask Edric. His people revolted in 1990 and guess what? THEY GOT THEIR LAND BACK! WUUU HAAAAA BADA BING! BADA BOOM

thats how the world works.

If Palestine is too weak to withstand the revolution, then perhaps they DO NOT GET POWER over their land. The only time the international world needs to step in is if, under the new Israeli government, former palestinians are treated as slaves or subhuman. During the revolution we can expect a certain level of violence from both sides. But when its finally over, the victors must provide a place in society for the losers, or at least allow them safe passage out. It is none of your buisiness or my business just like the Romainian revolution, the American revolution, and a hundred others in the last 200 years etc was no ones business but theirs

for some reason everyone doesn't seem to want involvement in revolutions that happen all over the world, but when it comes to the Jews, everyone wants to dictate terms. Just lay off already.

[Anathema]

Israel maltreats the Palestinians. They systematicly destroy their infrastructure- recently they did not allow the Palestinians to drill aditional water wells. The Palestinians have a serious water shortage (since years) and Israel even steals their water (looking for BBC or CNN article now).

And we were already involved. Where do you think the Israelians initially got their weapons from?

[Caid Ivik]

Israel has just very advanced watering system linked to river Yordan. Which is Israeli-Jordan border, but also part of Israel, so they have full right to do with it what they want. Palestine is officially part of Israel. Arafat is one terrorist, and souverene Palestine would be just a host for radicals like Bin Ladin. Hamas or Fatah won't perish, they will compose main military force against Israel. If Arafat reach his target, these companies will fight against weakened Israel and then all other countries will join them, including Syria, Iraq, Egypt etc. If NATO won't intervene, Israel will have to use nuclear weapons for defense and you can imagine results. Israel is a column of the world's peace. If Israel not exist, we had to imagine it.

[emprworm]

Israel maltreats the Palestinians.

uhh, welcome to the world. Hussein maltreats his own people and last I checked, you wanted to stay out of that.

Crimes against humanity is another story. BUt in Palestine, it is actually 2 way. I wouldnt exactly say that homicide bombing is getting royal treatment.

And we were already involved. Where do you think the Israelians initially got their weapons from?

And you think that palestinians are MAKING their own guns and gunpowder? Every single weapon in the entire middle east, every weapon owned by a muslim was handed to them from someone else.

So that really means nothing. ANd besides, its all the more reason to stay out of it. Again, revolutions happen. You lose the land...too bad. Ask the native Americans. At least they are honorable enough to not be whining about how they want their land back.

[TMA_1]

lol it was only the palistinian's land during the jihad that took much of the land of earth. Finally great britain began to colonize. Palistine was one of the countries. The palistinians were under the thumb of the english. Finally the israelies wanted their own country after ww2. The newely formed UN voted on it and it was established. The palistinians had part of that land but fought the israelies. They had no other choice but to fight back and take the land of their enemies. Besides the jews took the land thousands of years ago from the canaanites. possesion is nine tenths of the law.

[emprworm]

everyone on this earth took their land from someone else. Are we going to tell all the Australians to pack up their bags and leave because the Aborigines want their land back? Well, if the Aborigines are STRONG enough to take it by force, then well, too bad for the Aussies. To aquire land via revolution, you have to be the STRONGEST. Thats just how it goes. If all 200 million Americans suddenly wanted to have Edric's government instituted and rose up by force and abolished the US capitalist government, then who is going to stop them? Whos right would it be to barge in and say NO? Surely not some Eurpopean is going to impose themselves on internal American affairs (unless crimes against humanity are being committed- which do NOT include deaths as the result of normal armed conflict.)

If the Jews are strong enough, and the palestinians are too weak to withstand the revolt, then they must SUBMIT or leave. Period. Its just that simple. LIke I said, revolutions happen all the time. Thats how governments rise and fall. Any white european who wants to dictate governments as if any government can stay in power for all eternity needs a slap in the face. ALL governments...I repeat-- All of them rise and fall. No government has ever existed eternally.

GOVERNMENTS RISE AND FALL- GET USED TO IT

Because of white europeans who continue to impose themselves on the internal affairs of Israel, this conflict continues and bloodshed doesnt stop. If you just let Isreal FINISH the job, it would all be over then we can get on with it. Palestine is too weak to withstand Israel, so freaking just let it TAKE ITS COURSE as thousands of revolts in history have done, then this stupid war will be over.

Perhaps one day the Palestinians will regroup and rise up again. And if they are strong enough, they will succeed. I dont expect America to last forever. Someday, it too, like all other governments, will collapse. This is how the world works. Deal with it. Whining and dragging it out (as if it is any one elses business anyway) only extends the bloodshed.

[quoudam72]

;)

Here are a few of the many problems to be solved, before sand and water could change itself into living creatures:

1 - Spontaneous generation has been scientifically disproved

2 - Instant success would have to be necessary for the life form to survive

3 - Thousands of essential body parts and thousands more of essential chemical compounds would have to instantly form themselves

4 - Both male and female forms would need to make themselves and be near each other in space and time

5 - Law of mass action would immediately destroy chemical compounds

6 - Water is never enough to produce life chemicals

7 - There is no lab equipment out in nature

8 - Condensation problem: Water must be carefully removed for fats, sugars, and nucleic acids to derive out of protein

9 - Precipitation problem: Enzymes would immediately be destroyed

10 - Most life chemicals not found in watery environment

11 - Lightning bolts only damage and kill and could not be the energy source

12 - Oxygen problem: Life could not originate where there is oxygen

13 - Life could not survive without continual oxygen

14 - Oxidized iron is found in rocks existing where life is said to have originated

15 - Life can not originate without water. But there can be no water without oxygen

16 - A reducing atmosphere (no oxygen) would produce life-killing peroxides

17 - Ultraviolet light in reducing atmosphere would immediately kill life

18 - Without oxygen, there would be no protective ozone layer

19 - Proteins would immediately hydrolyze and destroy themselves

20 - There would not be enough chemicals available to form even the simplest protein

21 - Nitrogen is in most biochemicals, but there is not enough concentrated nitrogen in nature to form life

22 - There is not enough available phosporus in nature either

23 - Scientists have no idea how to make fatty acids or how they could make themselves

24 - The atmosphere throughout the world would have to instantly change from no oxygen to its present oxygen-rich content

25 - Extremely complicated chemical combinations not found in nonliving material exist in living tissue

26 - Residue problem: Since such extremely rich chemical mixtures are found in living things, we should find residues of them in nature, but they do not exist

27 - Accidental formations of amino acids would produce equal amounts of left- and right-handed forms which exist in animal life

28 - Dissolution problem: Even if correct chemicals gather together, the next instant they would spontaneously disintegrate by forming with other chemicals

29 - Immediate, complete duplication and reproduction of DNA, Protein enzymes, fats, cells, etc. would be needed for survival

30 - There is not the remotest possibility life could originate by itself. There is not enough time and space in all the universe and in all eternity to product our present myriad of living species on earth

Silly mortals :P

[emprworm]

the funny thing quandom about proponents of evolution is that the initial conditions required to "create" life have to be so extreme that even if in the crazy chance life was formed, the very conditions that formed it would have immediately destroyed it. Takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution.

As a believer in God, I respect evolutionists, because they have more faith than I.

[emprworm]

Oh, and dont forget this to add to your list:

31. A mechanism for converting evironmental energy into useful energy for life.

A human being could be standing in front of an infinite sea of pure energy and still die because he has no Biological mechanism to convert it into anything useful.

faith, faith and more faith.

[Anathema]

Bah. Of course Palestinians don't make their own weapons ::). But you're forgetting that the Palestinians got a couple of rifles and the Israelians got tanks and planes. Sounds fair eh ::)?

Oh, and I thought there were some 300 million Americans, not 200. I'll check on that.

You mean it's justified that colonists came to America, beated the shit out of indians using the most repugnant tactics and means, and finally keep them as their pets by offering them a few minor patches of land? Right of the strongest is the most immoral right possible, because the weak have no rights. Don't go saying bull crap like "the muslims took the land from the Israelians", because it was the Romans who drove them out.

Because of white europeans who continue to impose themselves on the internal affairs of Israel, this conflict continues and bloodshed doesnt stop.

You blame us? Not that I'm saying we don't have our share in fault, but it was you who gave the Israelians the guns required to keep this going. In two words: American ego.

GOVERNMENTS RISE AND FALL- GET USED TO IT

This is not a domestic political matter. If it were up to the Israelians they would crush the Palestinians and exterminate all of them.

If you just let Isreal FINISH the job

Already betting your money on Israel? Since you "know" Israel will prevail (I'm not saying it's unlikely), and you don't like Palestinians that much, of course you say "keep out of it".

Now, suppose Germany would be on a power trip, and decide they will invade Poland. Would you allow that?

[quoudam72]

;)

You see Emprwrm that is why even with all that I (think) know I still like the 'pulling the rabbit out of the hat trick'.

[emprworm]

forgetting that the Palestinians got a couple of rifles and the Israelians got tanks and planes. Sounds fair eh

 

uh, the world aint very fair is it? It wasn

[Edric O]

Perhaps you haven't noticed, Emprworm, but we are no longer barbarians. "We want their land" is no longer a good excuse to start a war.

I despise the anarchic system which you defend. A revolution by the people against the government needs no justification, but a war waged by one nation against another needs a damn good reason!

As for the Israeli/Palestinian problem, I find the whole issue ridiculous. They should just live together under some sort of federal government.

[emprworm]

Edric, the Jews have lived there ever since recorded History. They are not "moving there" they have been there all along. The Muslims came in and took over. They won. They got the land. The Jews living there were subservient to Muslim laws in Israel. And many Jews still remained there. Its not like you have a bunch of Americans storming in. This is an INTERNAL revolution between two already existing groups of people. Now the Jews who were already there rise up and declare independenced backed by the UN, I might add, and Palestine's turn is to submit now. Like anyone else who loses a revolt, including the revolt against NICOLAE CEAUSESCU

And when I refer to land, I mean control. heck your people took over 10 years ago. So dont go telling anyone else they cant do the same. If you live in an area and you want to gain control of it, you revolt. Even in your government, the people will ALWAYS have the ability to revolt. Revolution is never....NEVER a sign of human weakness but a sign of human progress. People don't want the current system, so they revolt.

Woe is the day when an Edric like government comes along that demands that if the people of that government want a new government, they are forbidden to do so. REvolution is not barbaric, Edric. It is a necessary component of human progress.

Not to mention, none of anyone elses business

[Edric O]

10 (or more accurately 12) years ago, my people rose up against our GOVERNMENT, not against another ethnic group living in our country!

Woe is the day when an Edric like government comes along that demands that if the people of that government want a new government, they are forbidden to do so.

That was uncalled for. I specifically stated in my previous post that a popular revolution against a government is perfectly justified.

But a "revolution" against an ethnic group is NOT justified. You can overthrow the government they imposed on you, but don't go around punishing the common people for it!

Revolution is not barbaric, Edric. It is a necessary component of human progress.

You are a Shadow. I am a Vorlon. :)

(obscure Babylon 5 reference)

[emprworm]

Edric you interpret it as a revolution against an ethnic group. That is your subjective interpretation but it is rediculous. Israel couldnt care less about surrounding muslim countries. They are interested in removing the Palestinian Government run by arafat. Romanians wanted to remove the government run by Nicolae Ceausescu. I am shocked and appalled at the same time that you of all people do not understand this.

People all over the world rise up against government systems. Once Israel has eliminated the palestinian government only THEN by their subsequent actions will you have any real evidence or rational basis to call it ethnic. Let them finish removing the current government FIRST before you make genocidal accusations. If, after the current government is removed, they are persecuting palestinians, only THEN should we get involved.

Right now, 2 governments in confilic over the SAME LAND. there will be a winner and a loser. People whine about ehtnic crap, its a bunch of garbage while more people die. That kind of whining only prolongs the war. Just let ONE GOVERNMENT DIE OFF and THEN we deal with subsequent treatment of the losers. Once a government dies off, then we will not tolerate persecution of palestinians. until then, it is a conflict of 2 opposing governments. One must win, and one must lose- ask any Romanian about this in regards to Nicolae Ceausescu.