Loss of Honour

[Caid Ivik]

If sin is in flesh, WHAT could create our morale, why you atheist don't kill everyone blocking your way? Atheism was created because people are lazy to be good for others and they want to do anything what they want, what seems good only for themselves. Religions built moral laws, and if some zealots with overthrewn thinking wish to attack non believers, they do it only by influence of atheistic brutality. Evil wasn't, before humans received intelligence. When they've found good, they've found also evil and religion said them, how they should see there a difference.

"Atheism in of itself did them no wrong. But other things (like lack of a moral code) did. A moral code is more important than religion. Attatching one to the other is dangerous and risks losing both messages."

See this. What caused that "lack of moral code"? Marx erased Jesus' sensivity from socialism and this caused all horrible things of communism.

[Anathema]

Atheism was never "invented". Religion was. And now you are accusing atheists for the fact that religious people supress and attack them?

You are saying the victim is the guilty one.

Marx did not create communism- Lenin did, on basis of Marx' theories.

Though I agree with Edric that the only real way to preserve moral codes is through religion. But that doesn't mean christian people are any less violent of nature then atheists. Christians just fear that what will happen to them if they don't abide by their moral code ("behave, or go to hell!).

[Edric O]

Actually, atheism WAS invented. Religion is natural. As far as we have historical records, people were religious. Stone-age cavemen believed in many spirits. No atheist culture was ever discovered.

[emprworm]

that is a true statement, Edric. All cultures in all parts of the world througout history have believed in the supernatural. Supernatural awareness is a component of human nature. One day, some guy on a power trip didnt like the idea that he was inferior to anything and wanted to be his own god, so he invented atheism so that he could be supreme. it caught on, unfortunately.

[Anathema]

My father was raised religiously- his parents were practicly zealots. He got so sick of it he became atheist. So don't go saying every atheist is on a power trip cause it's bullsh*t.

[DjCiD]

if you look close he didnt say every atheist....

he was just supposing how it started....

[Edric O]

What about my argument?

People are naturally religious. Atheism was invented.

[emprworm]

i agree with edrics argument.

[Anathema]

Yes- religion was around as long as humanity was- but it's still a human invention.

[Acriku]

C'mon edric, religion was definitely invented, by primitive beings in fact ;) Athiesm is not an invention, because it is a lack of belief. To have belief is to make something to believe, to have lack of belief, it could be before belief of anything could have been perceived or after something was believed. It's logical if you ask me. Like dancing was an invention, but not dancing wasn't.

[Edric O]

But what if all people would naturally dance without being taught? Would dancing still be an invention?

I challenge you to show me PROOF of just ONE ancient civilization/people/primitive tribe/cavemen population which was not religious.

All current evidence shows that religion is much older than atheism. Or, in other words, religion is much older than the lack of it.

[Acriku]

Show me what religion the first civilization was. Or if it had any. You can't. Because we don't enough of evidence to prove anything, so how the hell could I prove it?

If you are isolated from everyone else and suddenly start doing the tango? Is that what you mean? Well, you wouldn't be doing the tango (added for sarcasm), but I mean think this:

You are happy. You find the only way to express your glee is to jump around (dancing). Woah you just invented dancing for yourself.

[DjCiD]

my daughter heres music and dances... shes not even 2 years old... no one taught her... guess it does come naturally....

now granted shes not out there doing the tango or breakdancing or even the electric slide or some country line dance... but shes still groovn to the music...

O0 Groove on baby, Groove on... O0

[Acriku]

Now there's the key - music. Would you imagine primitive civilizations to sit very still listening to upbeat music? And come on people, why are we arguing against a feeble example? I didn't have to give one, but I just threw one in, and now you guys are attacking it. Jesus picky picky picky.

[Edric O]

Sumerian gods - see the story of Gilghamesh (sp?)

Chinese gods

Egyptian gods

etc.

[DjCiD]

no but they may have been sittn round the fire beating on some animals skin streched out to dry with the bones and you've got the drum

now one of them picked up an bone and pounded some holes in it and they had a woodwind like instrument

then there is the chanting...

sound like primitive music...

[Acriku]

Sumerian Gods? Chinese Gods? Please explain?

[Edric O]

Explain what?

Uh, you could do a Google search if you want to know more about the actual mythology...

[Acriku]

Explain the purpose of that post. Who were you referring to, what were you referring to, etc. You seem to like being vague.

[quoudam72]

Well Acriku it went something like this, Edric O said atheism was invented you said that relgion was invented. Then Edric O said show him proof of one ancient civilization that was not relgious. Then you said show me what religion the first civilization was and that Edric didn't have any proof. Then Edric O posted Sumerian gods - see the story of Gilghamesh (sp?), Chinese gods, Egyptian gods. then after that you became confused. ;D :-X

[Edric O]

Then you said show me what religion the first civilization was and that Edric didn't have any proof.

ARE YOU INSANE??? The first civilizations were the Sumerians, Egyptians and Chinese. There are mountains of evidence that they were deeply religious. That's what I meant - do a Google search and you'll find tons of info about their gods.

[Acriku]

Well thanks, it got confusing in the middle of arguing whether or not dancing was invented ::)

And I am not talking about those civilizations, I mean ancient ancient, like ooga booga ancient, cave dudes, of that like. Because then we get to the root where man is developing the mind to comprehend the idea of a higher being. You don't see wolves or dogs worshipping anything, because their minds are not able to invent such a thing, since they can't comprehend it.

[quoudam72]

Western Quest: Origins of Occidental Mythology is that what you want for what you asked, Acriku.

[Edric O]

Ooga booga ancient? For one thing, each and every primitive tribe ever discovered had a form of religion.

Also, scientists generally consider that cave paintings had some sort of spiritual meaning. Very ancient graves were found (25.000 years) that suggest some form of burial rituals.

Basically, religion is as old as Homo Sapiens.

[Acriku]

[ooga]Oh yes me paint buffalo die and me put best friend under for him to grow again make me religion. [/ooga]

Anyways, it is very much speculation Edric. Maybe giving a dead oogabooga's body to the maggots for food suggests a higher entity believed? Or maybe a couple oogabooga's found another oogabooga buried dead with plantlife all around, and from then on they buried to make their homes purty. Speculation, which isn't very valid proof...