Loss of Honour

[emprworm]

the a bombs are tough Acriku

[DjCiD]

We lost all honor in about 1960 by taking God out of the classroom where He should be and replacing God with immoral, evil, baseless propaganda and teaching the kids that it's ok to do whatever the Hell you want as long as it makes you feel good.

i cant believe i agree with Nav.... :- but i do... will wonders ever cease.

Nobody suspects the Spanish Inquisition!!

[Caid Ivik]

My primary objection to the way atomic bombs were used in WW2 is that they were dropped on civilians. Wouldn't they have had the same psychological effect if they had been dropped on, say, 2 very big military bases?

In fact, in Hiroshima were large docks, first target was Kyoto, but generals decided to leave it because of it's historically interesting city. Throw it on one ship? That wouldn't show real power of nuke. Death of those thousands may prevent death of other billions in possible nuclear war, which should come if we had not seen what is nuke capable of.

[Edric O]

You are right, Caid. But the REAL question is this:

Is it moral to kill 1 thousand people to save 1 million?

IMO, the answer is absolutely NO.

--------------------

Emprworm, without Islam we would still be in the Middle Ages. By cutting us off from the Indian spices, they set in motion a chain reaction that lead to the discovery of America and the industrial revolution. Without Islam, none of us would be alive today. We would have most likely died in our infancy in the slums of a backward Europe.

I admire Muslims. They have great courage and unclinching faith. Christians are weak and cowardly. We allowed our religion to be trampled and corrupted. While we compromise and retreat, Muslims stand their ground! In the ideological battlefield, they are my most worthy enemies.

Would YOU die for your faith? Most Muslims would. And for that, I salute them!

[The_Sadukar]

Edric O, my friend (may I call you that?), you are absulutly right, but about the "Is it moral to kill 1 thousand people to save 1 million?" question, I would say yes , the needs of teh many outwights the needs of the few.

Ya Hya Chouhada

[emprworm]

lead to the discovery of America and the industrial revolution

this is really really pushing it. America would have been inevitably discovered regardless. And this leap of the "industrial revoltion" had absolutely nothing to do with Islam because it occured almost 300 years later! lol.

Besides, you are proposing a chain-reaction as a justifiable contribution when this kind of logic is bad. I am asking for a DIRECT contribution, not an "implied" one which is impossible to prove anyway.

What you just said is like an American telling a black politician "You should be thankful for the slave trade, cuz if it wasn't for Muslims selling you into slavery, you wouldnt be running for the senate now."

You cannot use that kind of arguing. What Columbus did, he did on his own. Just because some Muslims might have kicked or pushed people into doing things does NOT give them the credit for getting those things done. I want to know what they have actually DONE.

And yes, they die for their faith. An admirable quality.

[emprworm]

to save a million people, a thousand lives are morally justifiable. Not a GOOD thing, mind you, but justifiable nontheless

[Edric O]

Sardaukar, my friend, ( :) ) what about killing 1 million to save 1 billion? Or 1 billion to save 1 trillion? Where do you draw the line?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. True. But human lives aren't just numbers to play around with! Look at it this way: each human life has an infinite value. 1 thousand infinities are equal to 1 million infinities.

Edit: Very well, Emprworm... My logic was not sound. But still, the impact of Islam on history is immense. Both good and bad have come out of this. It's impossible to calculate the "moral sum" of all their actions...

Like I said before, I admire Muslims for standing their ground and not cowering in a corner like we Christians do...

[emprworm]

i draw the line where the amount your killing is less than the amount your saving.

8)

[Anathema]

Would YOU die for your faith? Most Muslims would. And for that, I salute them!

Yes, I agree- most of todays christians don't have the religious devotion that muslims do.

[emprworm]

What moral contributions Edric? i am being totally honest here. I do not know of anything Islam has done for the world other than discover algebra (a remarkable discovery, but one that came back in 825 AD, very very early in the Islamic faith)

[Anathema]

Our alphabet is also arabian.

[Edric O]

Our alphabet is ROMAN.

Our numeric system is arabian.

[emprworm]

but Muslims did NOT contribute our numeral system. The arabic-hindu numeral system was in place long before Muhammad, while Arabia was a pagan penninsula.

[Caid Ivik]

You are right, Caid. But the REAL question is this:

Is it moral to kill 1 thousand people to save 1 million?

IMO, the answer is absolutely NO.

Would YOU die for your faith? Most Muslims would. And for that, I salute them!

YES, it is moral to kill one thousand to prevent death of one billion, er, at least smaller evil than to do nothing.

YES, I would give my life for any good thing, especially for my beliefs. I insist on any word I say. You wouldn't?

[TMA_1]

War isnt moral edric. None of it is moral. Stop thinking that somehow killing is justified. Even if we have to protect ourselves it is still a sin to kill. killing a thousand is just as evil as killing a million. We just had to do what we had to do. This world is very evila nd you will find out soon enough.

[quoudam72]

I dont dislike the Muslim people, on the contrary, I suggested destroying Mecca simply because it would help them in the end.

If that is not dislike akined to hate then I have now idea what that would be considered. Just how is destroying Mecca helping Muslims? If the same was happening to other religions would you destroy them in the same way?

You see, Muslims believe that Allah himself protects the Ka'aba (not sure how much you know about Islam). They believe literally that no force on earth can destroy Mecca. So what I propose is that by destroying Mecca, once all the muslims of the world see that their religion is false, they will be set free and no longer follow a false religion.

What grounds do you base your opinion on to say that Islam is a false religion?

I'm not proposing killing people, just destroying the Ka'aba really. It sounds hateful to you, I know, but in my mind, I see it as helping them and saving many lives. think of all the wars that would end, once Islam is invalidated. Of course, if Islam is RIGHT, then theres NO WAY we could ever destroy the Ka'ba. What do you think?

How can you not kill people if you destroy the Ka'aba, I mean really think about that statement? Think of all of what wars that would end? If your only concern about Islam is the Ka'aba then that is just an excuse and a poor one at that. You see your problem really is (IMO) that Islam questions a tenet of your religion (if you are a Christian). Your whole stance sounds the same as what happened during the Spanish Inquisition (sp?). As Europe's opinion of Africa while they had their meeting in Berlin about how to divide Africa among themselves without inviting the Africans. How can you lay judgement on an entire religion in this manner? There is no honor in destrying Islam. Who is next to destroy and what grounds should we eliminate them using? It is one thing to have knowledge but knowlwdge without understanding has no wisdom.

[emprworm]

Quandam we all agreed that killing 1000 people is better off than killing a million. Right?

Think about this: how many people die in middle eastern wars? How many people will die if we bomb Iraq?

Now, since all Muslims believe that Allah himself guards the Ka'aba, all we need to do is destroy it. The Ka'aba is so important to Islam that one of their 5 PILLARS is to go to it. What happens when you destroy a pillar on a building? It comes crashing down. The Ka'aba is the holiest, most sacred place in the universe to Muslims. If a bunch of kafir wearing red-white-and blue came in and destroyed it, grinding it into cement made it into a stone toilet, suddenly Islam will be proven false, and millions of Muslims (not all of them, but a LOT OF THEM for sure) will abandon the faith and there will be LESS WAR AND LESS BLOODSHED.

Instead of bombing Iraq and killing 200,000 people, we wipe out the ka'aba (not the whole city), and only kill 10,000 people AND we spare the world from multiple wars, perhaps billions of lives over the next 500 years.

And best of all, if Islam is proven false, then all those muslims will be better off because they no longer believe a false religion.

And last of all, if Islam is really TRUE then theres no way we could do it anyway, and then millions, perhaps billions of unbelievers will convert because Allah stopped the Kafir, thus there will less wars because people will join Islam instead of fighting it. It just makes sense to me. It is not hate. It is a good idea if you ask me because it saves lives either way.

If Islam is true, then Allah himself guards the Ka'aba and that theres no way anyone could destroy it. I say we try and if Allah stops us, then Islam just gained some new followers. If we succeed, billions of lives are saved and the truth is made known. Regardless of what grief it causes, the TRUTH is always better than falsehood.

[quoudam72]

Quandam we all agreed that killing 1000 people is better off than killing a million. Right?

I have not said a word on that subject directly and I will remain doing as such.

Think about this: how many people die in middle eastern wars? How many people will die if we bomb Iraq?

If you want to talk about bombing Iraq (city of Bagdad) just do so but your subject was bombing Mecca. Bombing Iraq is not about Muslims it's about oil bottom line. Iraq has the world's second (2nd) largest oil reserves behind Saudi Arabia. We all know the it is expense for America to have to drill for oil at the bottom of the ocean. If you want to talk real reasons let's by all means but do not insult my intelligence with your nonsense about Middle Eastern wars you do not care for those people, it is obvious.

Now, since all Muslims believe that Allah himself guards the Ka'aba, all we need to do is destroy it. The Ka'aba is so important to Islam that one of their 5 PILLARS is to go to it. What happens when you destroy a pillar on a building? It comes crashing down. The Ka'aba is the holiest, most sacred place in the universe to Muslims. If a bunch of kafir wearing red-white-and blue came in and destroyed it, grinding it into cement made it into a stone toilet, suddenly Islam will be proven false, and millions of Muslims (not all of them, but a LOT OF THEM for sure) will abandon the faith and there will be LESS WAR AND LESS BLOODSHED.

Less war and less bloodshed by destorying the city of Mecca? ::) Islam would not be proven false you would be proving that it is not about terrorism but actually about religion. Muslims would not abandon the faith of Islam but only be strenghten by the action of the destruction of Mecca. Not only that i think many nations would in deed turn against America. It would show the rest of the global community that America has no tolorance for those who are not like them. An action like that would make America as bad as Hitler and his attempt to rid the world of the Jews. I in no way defend terrorist no matter what religion they claim. These terrorists are using religion to cover for the political reasons of their actions.

Instead of bombing Iraq and killing 200,000 people, we wipe out the ka'aba (not the whole city), and only kill 10,000 people AND we spare the world from multiple wars, perhaps billions of lives over the next 500 years.

Only 10,000 can you be sure that only that number of people die? Can you ganrantee that like a prize in a cereal box? Your statements show utter ignorance and no regard for people not like yourself (as far as religion).

And best of all, if Islam is proven false, then all those muslims will be better off because they no longer believe a false religion.

Again on what grounds do you base your opinion that Islam is a false religion?

And last of all, if Islam is really TRUE then theres no way we could do it anyway, and then millions, perhaps billions of unbelievers will convert because Allah stopped the Kafir, thus there will less wars because people will join Islam instead of fighting it. It just makes sense to me. It is not hate. It is a good idea if you ask me because it saves lives either way.

I have already responsed to these type of statement your repeating yourself just with different situtions but the same results.

If Islam is true, then Allah himself guards the Ka'aba and that theres no way anyone could destroy it. I say we try and if Allah stops us, then Islam just gained some new followers. If we succeed, billions of lives are saved and the truth is made known. Regardless of what grief it causes, the TRUTH is always better than falsehood.

Again you are repeating yourself and there is no response for me to give outside of what I have already said.

[emprworm]

If you want to talk about bombing Iraq (city of Bagdad) just do so but your subject was bombing Mecca. Bombing Iraq is not about Muslims it's about oil bottom line.

rediculous. Iraq has nothing anyone needs. bombing Iraq is about a maniac dictator aquiring nuclear and biological weapons. bottom line.

Less war and less bloodshed by destorying the city of Mecca? Islam would not be proven false you would be proving that it is not about terrorism but actually about religion. Muslims would not abandon the faith of Islam but only be strenghten by the action of the destruction of Mecca.

how do you know this? Though I'm sure out of 1 billion Muslims many would continue to believe, there is no question that millions upon millions would revert. This is a PILLAR of their faith. You need to study Islam. Let me give you a parallel analogy in case you are a Christian.

I am a Christian. If someone were to produce the DEAD body of Jesus and could prove empirically that Jesus is still dead (and the only way I think you could do this is to invent a time machine, go back in time and show the world that Christ's body remained dead), you think I would believe? You are nuts. Nearly all Christians in the world would revert. No one believes that which they KNOW is a lie, let alone die for it. Muslims die for their faith because they believe it is TRUE. If you can prove that it is false, they would no longer die for it, because they would begin to doubt it. It is very hard to disprove Christianity- to do that you must show that Jesus is still dead. It is much easier to disprove Islam. To do that, you must show that Allah does not protect the Ka'aba.

Again on what grounds do you base your opinion that Islam is a false religion?

Why do i repeat myself? I'm saying that by attempting to destroy the Ka'aba we will FIND OUT whether or not it is false.

I have already responsed to these type of statement your repeating yourself just with different situtions but the same results.

Which is why I keep making these kinds of statements because you continue to call it a bloodbath, which fail to see it from my view point which lead to same results.

Destroying Ka'aba would either be a joint effort by many nation or a secret clandestine one (preferred)

And finally, here is my personal reason why I like the idea.

Either Allah is true or he isnt. 1 Billion people on earth are telling me that I am going to hell because I do not follow Islam. now, I dont want to go to hell. WHo would? So since my eternal soul is at stake, and the eternal souls of billions of people, if we can empirically prove the religion true or false, then that IS in the best interest of humanity!!

IF ISLAM IS TRUE THAN ALL UNBELIEVERS BURN IN HELL FOREVER!

BY attempting to destroy the ka'aba, if Allah intercedes, then you will prove Islam true be SAVING THE ETERNAL SOULS OF BILLIONS OF PEOPLE (including my own) because we will CONVERT!

If Allah does not intercede, then Islam will be proven false and you will be SETTING A BILLION PEOPLE FREE from a false religion.

I keep repeating myself because I do not think you are understanding the magnitude of this important task: destroy the ka'aba.

[ordos45]

You seem to despise Muslims Emprworm. What have they ever done to you directly?

Now as for the death of a thousand saving millions, it is ethical. Or at least it is in the opinion of the United States. Hint: Atom bombs in WW2. Would you all prefer that millions of Americans and Japanese (Military and civilians) dead in a full invasion of Japan compared to a little over a quarter million Japanese civilians?

[emprworm]

You seem to despise Muslims Emprworm. What have they ever done to you directly?

i want to know if islam is true or not for the sake of 6 billion souls, thats all. it has nothing to do with me despising them and everything to do with helping them, or helping the rest of humanity by revealing once and for all whether or not islam is true or false. did you not read my post above? I describe the circumstances in which i would convert to islam.

[ordos45]

Still the post above is about destroying (or attempting to) a holy site to prove if Allah exists. What if he doesn't and thousands if not millions die in the attack?

[quoudam72]

I keep repeating myself because I do not think you are understanding the magnitude of this important task: destroy the ka'aba.

I have wasted enough time on this meaningless conversation between us. I understand about the 5 pillars of Islam as well as Islam itself. If this is the best solution that a Christian like yourself could bring as a resolution then you have learned nothing I guess from Sunday services or Jesus' teaching. :) There is no futher need for me to respond directly to you. :-X

[ordos45]

Yep, most of us don't pay a single bit of attention to the thing called the Word of God aka the Bible, or if we do, we don't show it.