Abortion

[Acriku]

The 'by-product' is human, in my opinion. Hope this clarifies it more Fed.

[UsulSK]

I dont think that once sperm and egg are united, it can be called human.  Because human is defined as a concienesness, that is aware of itsself.  Thats what is believed separates us from the animals.  Anyway, I dont think that there is a difference beetween an insect and a "human" in that state of "life".  Its just a "human potential", just like a sperm or an egg is.

[Acriku]

Good thing to think about Usul2k. And also, at what point do we become conscientious? I forget my conscientious-turning-point.

[Ligic_Tha_Master]

*alarm signalign off-topicism starts to yell*

*BLEAH* *BLEAH* *BLEAH* *BLEAH* *BLEAH* *BLEAH*

But what if siamese-twins are going to be born, but another of them dies. Will the one that survived have a fetus in him?

[evilbaronatreides]

ah jeeze, someone had to start to the abortion topic, didnt they?. well, abortion really depends on your interpretation of human life. Is a couple of cells human life? hummmm..... is it capable of feeling, expressing, and comprehending the emotions that humans feel? is it capable of making a right or wrong decisicion? unless expsoed to something like the water of life, a womb is unaware of its own life. But what it really comes down to is woman's choice: a womans body is her business, just like a mans is his business. If a woman wants a baby, she can have it, if not, its her decision.

[quoudam72]

Acrku I knew that thanks and UsulSK yes at what point do we become aware mentally since you brought that point up? And EBA what about the father a woman can not have a baby without the male sperm. It's not just her decision alone.

[UsulSK]

First I want to say that I never told you my oppion on abortion till now, because its a complicated topic for me, even if Im an atheist.

[Acriku]

Perhaps scientists can study a mother and her baby inside, test the reactions and sparks inside the baby and conclude something. Or something. Well, someday we will be able to find this out.

[thomas]

Siamese twins are not a reason for abortion, you could seperate them with no risk to either or is it is more serious you could seperate them and let one live, but that is a choice most mothers would never do.Why? Because both are her babies and not one is a lifeless growth.

[evilbaronatreides]

Fed, again, its a womans body. Not the fathers, but the womans. Who has to go through 9 excrutiating months, that also have the chance of going to waste if there is a miscarrige. And like UsulSK mentioned, most abortion occur because the father wont support the mother.

[quoudam72]

Yeah but that's not the point if it is her body we know that EBA. A father has a right in the decision also and I am not talking about a father who was never there from the begininig. We need not even discuss that point.

[gryphon]

Acriku, is an sperm cell (from the man or woman) an organism or a pre-organism ?

And a human isn't a "by product" of two cells combining, it's the primairy product.

UsulSk, "humans are conciensness and animals arn't, that's what seperates us...". Did I miss some classes at school or are humans animals ? In the FANTASY books dune humans and animals are different, in "real" live we are both classifield as animals.

There is a study to when a foetus can be called a human, that time span is now used to indicate how old the foetus must be to still leagally abort it. But this is given by "western" medicals. It doesn't mean this can be said universally about adoption, or more exact, tell anything about if it's realy a human at that point. We just don't have a sollid and clear defenition of a "human beiing" at this point.

[Acriku]

Humans are animals, yes, but what seperates us from animals (while staying in the same category mind you) is the conscience. And when I mean organism I take that back, because I think the sperm cell is too simple to be an organism.

[gryphon]

By defenition all living things are "catologed" as organism, only bacteria ( and sutch ) are pre-organism.

Conciense, doesn't an animal have pain, pleasure while playing and grief when his "mate" dies ? Look at a dog, he screams when you cut his leg of, is enjoying himself when yo play with him and then has "sorrow" when he has to stop playing, or the grief when him master dies.

Doesn't that classefy as consience ?

We like to think we are the only "animal" that is able to develope a culture of our own, that we have the abillety to learn to and from eatch other. But do we really ? We just can't say for shure, can we ?

What defines that conciense you are all talking about that you supposebly can only find "in" humans ?

[Acriku]

Depends on which dictionary you look in. And when a dog gets his leg cut off and yelps that is called instinct. Not a conscientious action. Monkeys have a sort of a conscience, as told by the documentories on Discovery Channel :) And reason is a conscientious thingamajig, which humans have. Turns out that animals dont have it?

[ordos45]

It is the mother's choice.  A lot of women actually had abortions so they could attempt to have the first baby of 2001, did anyone here know that?  You may say that until it is aware it isn't a human being, have any of you ever seen an abortion?  I have, many times, in graphic detail, I have seen the "things" they haul out that they've killed.  There are some nights I do not sleep because of the death I saw at an abortion clinic as they brought the unborn children out to the dumpster, I mean you have to dispose of the unborn baby bodies somewhere right?  I once sat through a graphic slide show as part of a seminar on abortion, it was horrible, the father in law of the man who did the slide show used to have his office next to an abortion clinic and couldn't stand to see them taking the bodies out to the dumpster and had to move.

So unless you have seen babies aborted at different months and weeks you really do not know how horrible abortion is.  As soon as it is a zygote, I consider it human.  

[gryphon]

I don't thin you can get the knowledge you need for this from a dictonary, or the Discovery Channel. :)

It's called instinct ? How do you know our actions and reactions isn't instinct as well ?

You just can't say for shure that animals arn't aware of themselfs. We have awareness of our self, not even of another human. This is what gives ut the "personal" experians. But this personal experians is just the same thing that prohibbets us to know what some one else, or another animal feels ( and thinks ). If we would know this than we don't have that personal awareness anymore, it becomes commun. ( or just bi- or multiple ).

I agree with you that humans have a gift called reason. We can attone for the actions we do, another animal can't. But we just arn't able to give proof of the fact that animals can't know there own "personality" ( in other words, be aware of themselfs ).

Ordos45, I understand your position and agree with it. ( have some small doubts on when to officially call an unborn a human but those are minor things, it's basically the same ).

[quoudam72]

Ok I still say it's not just the mother's desicion. And even though I have not witnessed the horror of an abortion clinic doesn't mean I could not come to a realization about the subject. Maybe that is what separates humans from other "animals" in the kingdom. Telling off stories, conveying and ideas to one another and things of that nature, do animals dream about not being anything but animals. Can animals invent anything?  Sometimes we try go beyond being human, can animals go or even think beyond their being? Just thinking.............................

[Acriku]

Our actions are not instinct because we can choose to do it or not. Instinct is without thought, becuase the predictament and what to do in it is already implemented into our brains, as such. Also, I am not an expert at animal behavior so I could not answer whether animals have choice in their minds, rather than all instinct. But my theory is that they are instinctual.

[ordos45]

We don't respond by instinct?  have you ever flinched when you were watching a scary movie, have you ever flinched when you thought someone was goign to hit you?  THat is instinct.

[Acriku]

I didn't say we don't have instinct, it is just that we also have choice.

[gryphon]

Have you ever seen dolphins ? We teatch them to do "tricks" when they hear a certain wistle. We learn them, let's say 20 different object and actions to preform. They start communicating and make more tones by them selfs for tricks and object placements we havn't learnd them.

( if you'd like to believe the Discovery Channel they have a superiore for of telephaty, now isn't that only possible if they can think beond their own self ? )

Apes. The can't get to a banana in the top. So the make a sort of climbing gear out of wood. Things they can put between their tows, it has a sharp end on the other side so they can use it to get grip and climb up. The parents do this and so will there young, and theirs and so go on.

Doesn't that qualify as "invention", passing on "knowledge" from generation to generation ?

Ever seen a dag sleep. I own a golden retriever and sometimes when she sleeps you can hear her "crying" ( I think most people who've ever seen a dog sleep have witnessed this ). Doesn't she dreem then ? Don't think we can say for shure if she doen or doesn't.

When you feed your dog two bowls, one with regular dog food and one with cookies. He takes,.... . . .probebly the cookies. Is that instinct or choice ?

( think carefully, if you do think this is instinct how can you be shure that the things you do because you like them arn't instinct as well ? if it is choice that proves my point :) )

( the list goes on ..... .. )

About the instinct of humans. Our basic needs to put it boldly.

- we eat ( consume food ) by istinkt

- we get horny ( sorry for the word Gobalopper, didn't know how else to put it ) by instinct

- we form groups, friends becouse humans are by nature a group animal, we belong in "herds",

- we have fun.... by instinct, animalls like to play. ( don't have to give examples I presume ? )

- we sleep because our body needs it.

( these things cover a great deal of the actions most humens preform on a dayly base, not because they wan't to but it's just their nature, so you'd like to say we do these thing out of our own free will ? )

We are as "humans" more developed by evolution in some ways. Think of "language" and let's call it "free will". Other animals are more developed at other things. Bats with their "radar", some other animalls ( like cats ) with "night vision" and others with the abilety to hear "ultrasounds". This seperates different species from eatch other.

This "thing" we are more evolved in gives us other abileties than other animals. But so wat that antz don't build the great piramides and dogs don't write poetry. Does that makes them "less" at the scale of "conciense lifeforms" ? And does this mean we are truely different from "animals" as a different kind. Mankind ?

We as humans have a great tendancy to ajust evry thing to our own needs, the way we like them. But isn't that if we all whant that, a natural thing for humans, and so it's part of our natural instinct. We've just developed this part of our instinct more than other animals.

[Acriku]

Gryphon, all those things are from learning, which is a basic fundamental to surviving. Woah! Hold up, surviving is instinct is it not? If it isn't we would all be doomed. And about our basic needs, without arguing on those to save time, those may be instinct, but think about it. You are saying everything we do is instinct. You are denying every proven theory scientists have made throughout the years. There is hard as a rock proof that animals are instinctual. If theyare taught to do something, and they 'choose' not to, it is only a matter that they don't want to, so they won't do it. Simple as that. Do it or not. Do it or not. It all goes down to basic instinct. All humans do is bring instincts to a new level, reasoning. Woo! Go humans! Learning a language isn't instinctual, in other words we do not need to at all, it is our choice to learn it and we will survive without it. And is it instinctual to be posting this onto a forum? Could you teach a dog to type and comprehend it, and then type a synopsis of it? Our minds go farther than animals, check the books if you want to.  Also, we do have free will onto whether we want to eat. You know those people on a diet? They go against instinct and reason out that they need to not eat so they could be thin. Also, people who kill themselves, they are going against the primary instinct, to survive! They use reasoning onto whether they want to go or not, and they 'choose' to go. Sad, but so. Debate! I compel you to!

[UsulSK]

Actually it doesnt really matter if animals also are conciensness of themselves or not (at least if we are not talking about the legitimation of eating them), but when the sperm/egg combination begins to be conciensness.

[gryphon]

Acriku, some small comments to yours :)

People who commit suacide think they will be in a better place when they have killed themselfs. If that is haven or simply stop to exist doesn't matter. They kill themselfs becouse the want to go to better "surcumstances". And that is "survining" in a way, so the still commit suacide to "survice".

The hard evidence that animals are instinctual should also apply on humans because we also are animals ?

We haven't learned dogs how to read and write jet ;) But we have learnd monkey's to use symbols to talk to humans, no interact between them and humans. They can memorise about 300 symbols with their corrosponding meaning. Like ball, foot, me etc. We can make clear things to them and the can tell us where the ball is if we ask them.

- So could we learn animals ( you mentioned the dog ) to write and comprihend it ? Yes. The minds of the apes just can't remember the amount of information we can but the can do what you've asked. The minds of elephants can remenber more ( in timespann ) than a human mind can remember. ) And this I also mentiond with the dolphins. The learn the "wistle" language from us and then talk to eatch other in that and make new sounds for tricks they do.

Learning language isn't instinctual ? Scientists can't explain the fast way we learn the language we speak in the first year ( or so ) after we are born. We just don't get enough stimulance from our surroundings to learn the amount of words ( and sutch ) we get in the first couple of years.

So the scientist can't say if language is or isn't instinctulal.

- And we can survive without languge ? You think ? Emagine a world without language ( for us humans ). What can we do at that point ? Not mutch.

Evry "living" thing needs language to survive in this world. It's not that we humans are the only organism that have and use language. We find it in all other living things as well. ( evry species has his own language, it's own way to communicate. We humans just have vocal cords that alow us to communicate the way we do. Other animals have other organs for the means of comminication. Seacreatures often use high sound, dogs smell and body language. It's just all a way of communicating, and therefor language. )