Religion

[The_old_worm]

Sanwraith, the truth I am referring to includes all assumptions; Whether I am actually sitting here typing on my computer, or is it a dream, whether something happens when I die, whether God created the universe in 7 days, or the universe created itself in billions of years.

[Edric O]

Okay, I'm BACK! For good this time. And I'll start replying to posts all the way back to when I left (page 33)... ;D

The_old_worm, I think we have two choices: either both science and religion are evil (Crusades on one side, nuclear weapons on the other, etc.) or neither are good or evil, because it's all in the way you USE them.

Please explain why blind faith is bad. And don't give me the speech about how it leads to religious intolerance and war, because there are many people out there having blind faith who do not have an urge to go on a killing spree.

In order to avoid all forms of "mind control" as you put it, you would have to be paranoid. Haven't you ever believed something your best friend said without asking for proof? Congratulations, you've been mind controlled! :) After all, you can't REALLY trust anyone.

Furthermore, I am getting sick of people blaiming Christianity for what happened centuries ago. GET OVER IT! We are no longer supporting Crusades and burning heretics, yet you continue to act as if there's some hidden evil inside us waiting to tear you apart. There ISN'T! Just because it happened once doesn't mean it has to happen again.

You seem to enjoy searching for ultimate Truth, even if you know you'll never find it. You must consider the search important. But who are you to force your values on others? Maybe I don't CARE about searching for truth. Maybe I'm satisfied with what I already have! You crave for Truth, but you will never find it. You will only suffer because of your craving. At least that's what Buddhism teaches on the issue, and I happen to agree with that particular part.

One last thing: Who are you to tell US what WE think? How do you KNOW we don't question our faith? I have questioned it several times and found it true each time. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I don't question my faith. It just means that after the questioning I came to a different conclusion than you did.

Bottom line: You assume too much.

Acriku, your comment on brainwashing sounds like a conspiracy theory. Be careful, *they* are out to get you!! ;)

The difference between religions and cults is that cults use religion as a cover-up for other things and "not so holy" purposes. If a weird guru actually cares about people and not money, then I call that a religion, not a cult.

Gunseng, the term "day" used in Genesis is quite relative... for the first 3 "days" there wasn't even a Sun. Actually, in Genesis it says that God called the light "day" and the darkness "night". So "day" has a whole other meaning...

And don't take everything in the Bible literraly. Even Jesus used parables. The two Books that shouldn't be taken literraly are Genesis and Revelation, IMO. The beginning and the end. It would have been too complicated to explain the exact events to those primitive people. And even WE might be too primitive to understand what REALLY happened.

And PLEASE don't go around saying "Darwin was right. Full stop." As The_old_worm kindly pointed out, we CAN'T be certain of ANYTHING. If we're not even 100% certain 1+1=2, it would not be scientific to consider evolution undeniably true. That would make it a religion, allowing me to tear it apart. ;D

As for the "cruel God" theory, you're basically calling Him cruel because he doesn't tidy up the mess we humans made... But it's us who keep screwing up and creating all the evil in the world, so blaming God only makes you a hypocrite.

The only way for God to save little children dying of starvation would be to take full control of the world, making Him an evil dictator. So what choice does He have? Either way, you can keep blaming Him.

[Edric O]

Hmmm... I see some atheists on this topic who believe in magic... It would be funny if it wasn't so damn sad. :( Just goes to prove that some people will go to great lenghts to disprove God, but have no problems with believing in other similar things.

One more thing: Why is "God of the gaps" any worse than saying "we can't explain it now, but we will in the future". How do you KNOW that science will explain a particular *thing* sometime in the future? Since you CAN'T know that, don't make unfounded assumptions!

Here's the most disgusting quote I ever saw in this forum:

"You should seek truth, no matter how ugly and disturbing it may be, because the search for truth, is what frees our minds, and advances our species."

-The_old_worm

And what if I don't care about your stinking truth? If I have to choose between your filthy truth on one side and hope and hapiness on the other, I say fuck your beloved truth!!!!!  >:(  >:(  >:(

Comments like "sheding the old superstitions" scare the sh!t out of me. Can't you see what a world without religion would be like? It would be a world without hope!! Imagine a child dying of cancer, knowing he has nothing to look forward to, nothing but oblivion. Imagine his parents at his side watching him waning away slowly, seeing the spark of his life go out and knowing that their little son is no more. Knowing that his body will soon be food for worms and insects, his eyes ,which were so full of life once, being decomposed by bacteria and fungi. Imagine his grief-stricken parents, begging to see their son again but knowing there isn't anyone to beg. Knowing they too will share his fate because they are nothing more than pawns in a cruel game of DEATH.

You want to kill the only good thing that came out of Pandora's box. You want to destroy hope and turn the world into a living hell.

If you can look a dying man in the eyes and say "There is no afterlife", then you are nothing more than useless filth in my opinion.

[gryphon]

Yep, he's back. And how ;D

But no comments to me ?

:)

[The_old_worm]

Wow, the man with a futile argument resorting to ad hominem attacks, imagine that!

1.  Why those two choices about religion and science.? I've got two better choices--true or false.

2.  Another problem with Bind Faith, other than mass control, is that once a person believes he knows the absolute truth, and incorporates Blind Faith to that truth, then they will stop looking at other possibilities, explaining away all other theories, then forcing schools not to teach it because it is heresy.  Creationists do this, maybe not in Europe, but here in Kansas, they do.

3.  You do not have to be paranoid, you need to be skeptical.  Yes, I often believe my friends, but am always somewhat skeptical, especially depending on the situation.  Friends have a way of blowing smoke up your ass, just to be funny.  If my friend tells me, that they went to a movie, I will generally believe them.  If they tell me they screwed 5 girls at once, I would be skeptical.

4.  The Christians are still guilty of judging and condemning other people because of their beliefs.  Everyone, as I'm sure you are Edric are sure that I am going to hell.  They also step into political affairs to impose their beliefs on the population.  And religion, in general, is still as violent as it has ever been.  Look at the Middle East.  Christians, are fairly passive now, but who's to say what will happen in 1,000 years.

5.  Again, you can insult me all you want, but it doesn't strengthen your position.  Hey, if you want to believe the Earth is flat, go right ahead, more power to you, just don't preach to me about it being the absolute truth, then tell me I'm going to hell for not believing you.  Ignorance is your choice, but I will not be infected by you.  

6. Again, questioning your faith is different than exploring all other options, then finding Christianity more likely.  The problem is that you can't look at other theories objectively.  That is where your questioning is flawed.

You just go ahead and try to tear evolution apart!  I guarantee all you can do is present the God of the Gaps theory, saying that the holes disprove the theory.  You have to find something that falsifies evolution and makes it impossible to tear the theory apart.  And I guarantee you cannot do that!

God of the Gaps is faulty because it bows out of the search.  God did it, is just another way to stop looking for the answers.

So Edric, what you are saying is that you believe in God just to feel better about the world.  Boy, if I believe that money grows on trees, and that makes my world better, does that make it true?  You can believe in the fairy tale if you want to, but before you front me with your "theory" have a little evidence.  

[The_old_worm]

Tell me something Edric, cause I'm real curious.  Why couldn't an omnipotent, benevolent, and omniscient being be able to write a book that all of his followers could understand?  Even people who desperately want to believe don't agree on what the Bible is saying.  Why, if God is benevolent does he allow honest misinterperetations to tear his church apart?  Why didn't he instill us with the ability at least to understand the Bible?  

[Acriku]

Welcome back Edric.

[quoudam72]

I'm curious also as to why we can't talk about religion without trying to prove who's right about this and who's wrong about that. When are we going to talk about the different religions and what each one professes and how they differ from one another. There are some minds here I would really like to examine as far as their inner workings on the beliefs of religion. Come on let's skip all of this text book crap and really talk about religion. You can believe what you want to believe I'm not here trying to convert anybody (do that on your own time). And I'm not accusing anyone of trying to convert anyone either. Come on let's talk about Judism, Christainity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism. Do not be afraid no one will persecute because your are a pagan or heretic or just an out and out heathen. Even sinners need love, guidance and understanding isn't that what god would want? And those who do not believe there is a god it's ok I'll even talk to you also just remember you have to sit on my left.

And for the agnostics you are special because agnostics are like people who go to the beach and do not know how to swim, they just roll up their pant legs and walk along the shore.

[gryphon]

1 infinate abject + 1 infinate object is still 1 infinate object. So 1 + 1 = 1

Don't compleatly understand you Old Worm. You know the Bible is just our interpretation, it has been changed along the years and is interpreted by different people in more different ways. You can't say that, so if we could interpret the Bible. We make it uninterpretable for ourselfs.

[ also by just questioning it we doubt the contents, and that was what I said before with that tought nit te be taken seriously. But what if we only have to have faith in a higher "God". That would be to simple to explain and understand. And so it becomes to easy for us to exept it as a possible answer. ]

Just as Mathematishins have dine before [ like Descartes, Ok he is doubtfull at most ], when they found an possible answer to the questions we pose here they "go insane" and just have faith in the world that surrounds us.

The more poeple learn about this the more they start having faith in a simple thing that is true.

This can be God, the simple enjoymeny of our own sences and the visial world around us, or the comfort friend offer us.

[Acriku]

Which is why I mentioned in the "simplest of situations". And of course there are exceptions, which we have made or found within the system of numbers.

[The_old_worm]

My point is Gryphon, why can't the all-powerful, all-knowing, and infinitely good, God, create a doctrine that withstands human interperetation.  And don't say it's impossible because of human fallability, because if God is all-powerful, he can make us understand perfectly., and if he is all-good, he shouldn't desire to deceive us.  It doesn't make sense, and is a major problem for any religion.

Also, I'm saying that questioning your faith, and sincerely exploring other theories as possible are two different things.  People who question, desperatly seek answers to reaffirm their faith.

[gryphon]

But if God could do, or did what you mention, we woudn't be free. We would act like God want's us to, act as God pleases, but that's not the "gift" we got with our creation. We have the gift, the right and abilety to chooce, to make our own decissions, not the ones that are "good" by definition, are "the will of God", then we arn't free.

And when we would understand everything "perfectly", then what's the fun in living, what do we live for then ? Live becomes useless when we as humans are allknowing, understanding.

And it's not a problem for any religion, it's a problem for things outside that religion, within the "believes" of the religion it doesn't seem to pose a problem.

Be carefull, because you also have to place questions by the ways and means you use to explore and devine that exploration. Because the moment you start "seeking answers" you are seeking, and that is ALWAYS done by pre-made assumptions and pre-made ways of looking, ones you've started you can't change the means you use to look for answers. They have already pointed you in a direction.

[Acriku]

There is no way comprehendable to our minds that we can understand everything perfectly. What may be an understanding to one person, may be a different point of view to another - therefore there exist variations of understanding. Also, who says there has to be a reason to live? That there has to be fun in living? It is our hope that we are free and live life happily. There is no way we can, because all of us are guilty of being brainwashed by certain extensions of control. Like smoking pot, you are all happy and mindless, all the while killing yourself without you knowing.

[gryphon]

That's not what I ment with "the fun of living".

What if humans would understand every thing. Think of how it will change our civilisation, our way of live. Nothing any animal does has any meaning when he understands all.

I didn't say there has to be a reason fore us to live.

Just that we are alive, at this whould be useless in present form if we whould know and understand all.

The brainwash example is just an example of one thing that would be totaly gone when we whould understand everything and comprehend all.

[evilbaronatreides]

well, to hell what the rest of you think, my life has purpose (since the only person it matters to is me ;D)

Edric, its always a good thing/bad thing (but for the most part good) when you rejoin this beloved topic.

So Aricku, are you saying that life is somewhat of a Catch-22? We exist to be free, but we can't be free?( and how does wacky tobaccy tie into this)

And refering to the right/wrong scenario: I don't think anyone wants to prove anyone wrong here (unless there is some testerone a brewin), but rather see in another light.

[Acriku]

Would everyone please(!) stop looking at my words and look at my meanings!

The pot is an example of "being free" while all along your quite the opposite, disillusioned in a world of lies and false hope.

Those questions are hypothetical - made to make you think. To stir the "What if" s in your head, please don't take them as my belief.

Catch-22?

How do you know we exist to be free? Why are we given that right to be free? Maybe we live, to live? Maybe there is no reason behind our existence, just that we are here, and we live our life, like our children would live their life, like their children would and so on.

[Digital Guerrilla]

Reaffirming your faith is good if it helps you to have a better understanding of what you say you believe. That is the falsehood that we tell ourselves once too often I am of this religion there is nothing that I need to know and those who say that could not be doing themselves a worst injustice. Your faith will be tested as long as you have it or profess to have a certain faith.

As for the seperation between this physical world and the spiritual yes I am certain. There is no science to explain it's workings atleast not from a human point of view. You just have to understand that there are things in the universe higher than humankind.

[Edric O]

The_old_worm, I usually resort to ad hominem attacks when I'm mad, but now I've calmed down. Now I see your point of view clearly: You consider the truth to be the most important thing in the world. But my opinion is that since we'll never find absolute truth anyway, why waste energy trying? Instead we should only try to make our lives better!

I was talking about "tearing evolution apart" from a moral point of view, if Gunseng considered it undeniably true, making it a religion.

1. True or false? We'll never know for sure (until we die, at least), so we cannot make the distinction.

2. Why is looking at other possibilities always good? What's the point of seeking something you can never reach (absolute truth) just for the sake of it?

3. On what basis do you tell which claims are "likely" and which are "unlikely"? On past experience? Oh please! I don't think I have to remind you just how flawed our "common sense" is. You decide what to be skeptical about based on your flawed human sense of "common" and "uncommon" events.

4. It is my right to judge and condemn anyone based on anything! As long as I don't impose my judgement on other people, I can THINK anything I like! If that makes me guilty, then excuse me for not allowing you to tell me what is the "right" thing to think. ::)

5. For some people, ignorance is bliss. What right do you have to make them unhappy?

6. As long as you tell me what I can and I can't do, I suppose you know me better than I know myself so this whole argument is moot.

God isn't able to write a book that all of his followers could understand due to OUR limitations, not His. It's like asking why can't we write a book that bacteria would understand... Since God has followers separated in time by more than 5000 years, their levels of comprehension are very, VERY different. God is omnipotent and He could make us understand, but only by either changing how our minds work or making the book so that different people see different words. That doesn't seem necessary... after all, the important matters are not up to interpretation (e.g. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He ressurected to give us a chance to go to heaven)

Acriku, maybe some other incident will cause atheists to launch nuclear missiles at islamic countries... the point is WE DON'T KNOW, so we can't make assumptions. Unless you had a little too much spice that is. ;)

If you want the Bible's answer to why God doesn't stop all the suffering, just read the book of Job!

What I said at the bottom means that even if God doesn't exist (a "what if" situation), faith still brings hope and hapiness and is therefore good. Even assuming it's all a lie (as you put it), it is a good lie.

Yes, I would look into the boy's eyes and lie to keep him happy. But let's imagine another situation: would you tell him his mother died?

gryphon... umm, no comments, sorry ;D

[The_old_worm]

Nice to see you've calmed down, now maybe we can discuss rationally.

You're statement about evolution, then, is true.  We can't make it absolute truth, because then it is no better than religion.  I agree

1.  That's right, we probably will never know for sure,  but if you admit that, then why subscribe to the absolute truth of the Bible?  Because it makes you feel better?

2. Because falsehoods are a prison, and can be used to control you.  I fear, that at the very heart of our species, we actually want to be caged.  That's a real shame.  The search for truth frees our minds and allows us to accomplish things that we never BELIEVED possible.  It motivates us to advance as a species, with both knowledge and technology, and motivates us to explore our world and the universe around us.  Believing falshoods as absolute truth, holds us stagnant in our beliefs, which is ultimately fatal.

3.  I base what is likely and unlikely on the evidence and mine and other's observations.  I don't claim that this is perfect, but it is a better tool than Blind faith.  That's why I say it doesn't give us absolute truth.

4.  I thought judgement and condemnation were left up to God, but, I suppost if you want to take that postition, that is fine, as long as you don't expect me to care about your opinion.

5.  So, you're saying that you'd rather believe a good lie, then a bad truth?  That enslaves you to those telling the lies.  Ignorance leads to bliss leads to stagnation leads to death.

6.  I'm not trying to tell you what to do or what to think.  You're choices are yours, but this thread is about religion and the discusson has been about the validity of religion vs science, and I was not about to allow the religious to bash science without a defender  

[The_old_worm]

Next, I want to reply to Gryphon and Edric about my statement about God making the Bible understandable.

First of all, Gryphon, you have me wrong.  I'm not asking for the instilled belief in the Bible.  Just the capacity to understand it.  People could make their own decisions from there.  Neither do I ask for all the answers, just let us have a common ground on our understanding of the scripture to make our judgements on, instead of making it so subjective.  Our free will should come from what we do with that perfect information, believe it, or not.  Interperetations should not play a role.

Our limitations, Edric, ARE God's limitations.  He created us, therefore any flaws that we have, was in his creation.  An omnipotent being could have made us any way he wanted, but the "benevolent" God created us with a major flaw, undermineing our understanding of his word.  His flaws have created hatred and death.

An example, was Jesus the son of God, or was he God embodied?  Major battles have been fought over this, again, not necessarily violent in nature.  As has the trinity, created much turmoil.  Why didn't God create an understanding that would withstand 5000 years of interperetation.  After all, that is just a blink of the eye for him.  Why does a benevolent, loving God, allow his most devout followers to battle over the meaning of his word?

[The_old_worm]

I have an analogy, that I just came up with, that I think sums up what I have been trying to say.

Three blind men are on board an airplane that is going down.

[nemafakei]

"It's like asking why can't we write a book that bacteria would understand..."

God is supposed to be omnipotent, remember?

Regrding your expletives over the truth... *That* is the most disgusting quote *I* have ever seen. If you abandon the truth, all you have left is lies.

Says a lot about religion, though, that quote...

"But my opinion is that since we'll never find absolute truth anyway, why waste energy trying? "

We'll never get a crime-free society, why waste time trying to stop murder, theft, rape, and other things? Because these things are inherently destructive. But the search for the truth, no matter how little of it we can find, is constructive an better than remaining ignorant.

[Acriku]

Very good analogy old worm.

Edric, I would coat it with sugar, but at it's core yes I would tell the kid his mom died. This is the problem with Christianity and others, they (personified) would lie to the kid, tell him that his mom went to a better place.

And athiests are not grouped. They do not gather together to talk about not believing. Therefore, just athiests would never just launch a nuke. Christians do have a gathering, church, so they would be more likely to do something.

[Edric O]

The_old_worm, an easier way to sum up our argument is that we have very different values. I value hapiness and life above truth, while you do not.

1. I subscribe to the absolute truth of the Bible because I consider it both the most likely (considering our present knowledge) and the most desirable. And also because I "feel" it's true, something you will probably not understand... Relying too heavily on logic puts you in danger of becoming a machine.

2. Again, who made YOU the spokesman of our species? What if it's better for us to be caged?

I do not see the usefullness of expanding our knowledge and understanding for the sake of it.

When you see the first man on the moon you jump with joy at this great achievement, while I ask "What was the point of wasting all that money?". That is the difference between you and me.

3. How can it be better than blind faith when it IS blind faith? Blind faith in your observations is still blind faith. In fact, there's a great new argument: How can you know your senses aren't deceiving you? How can you trust your own observations? You see, you must have blind faith in SOMETHING, just like all math must have axioms at its base. You have blind faith in your senses and your observations.

4. Until I find out God's judgement (which is much better than mine, I can assure you), I'll have to rely on my own imperfect opinion.

5. Stagnation leads to death?? WHY? As for enslaving me to the liers, I'd rather be a happy slave than a miserable free man. It all comes down to "Would you rather serve in heaven or rule in hell?"

6. OMG this is so funny! I see plenty of you arguing against... well, just me and Ordos45, really. And you say you need reinforcements? Don't flatter me. ;D

About making the Bible understandable:

The way I see it, God had to allow some flexibility in order for it to appeal to so many different people. The nature of the Trinity, for example, is too complex for our understanding, so you can believe whatever you like about it (more or less). You have to read the Bible with the right half of your brain, not the left one. The Bible is NOT a science book. God did NOT try to write an encyclopedia on Himself.

Why does God allow us to battle over the meaning of His word? For the same reason He allows us to battle over anything we like, including hairstyle... I won't go into that again.

God created us with flaws because He wanted to. I think it's pretty obvious that He never intended us to be perfect...

As for your airplane analogy, what if the plane explodes while the agnostic tries to find out whether or not he's got a parachute? Or what if he simply CAN'T find out (say he has a backpack that just might be a parachute). Staying in the plane is certain death anyway.

Nema, like I said, God is omnipotent, but He is restricted by the limits He imposed on us. He can do anything, true, but sometimes only by changing things that He doesn't want to change (like the limits of our understanding). One thing I noticed is that God never brakes His own rules.

Nema, would you rather rule in hell or serve in heaven? I'd rather be a lier than a ruthless truth-seeker that cares more about his discoveries and theories than about human suffering.

Keep in mind that all this is hypotetical, though. My line of reasoning points to Christianity being true. But the choice between a good truth and a bad lie is a no-brainer, so I used the "what-if" situation instead.

Your analogy is flawed. Getting a progresively more crime-free society (although never perfect) is good for humanity. Getting progresively closer to the truth may not be. Also, striving to keep society crime-free is necessary to counterbalance an opposing force (crime). I don't see any opposing force that tries to get us away from absolute truth. At best there are forces trying to keep us where we are.

Acriku, assuming the kid would somehow never find out (say he's terminally ill and he'll die in a few days) WHY NOT tell him a lie? And also, keep in mind that I believe beyond any reasonable doubt that what I am saying is the truth, and so do the other Christians. So actually, a better analogy would be to say the boy's mother MIGHT be dead, but you don't even know for sure.

Atheists are not grouped? Really? What's this then:

http://www.atheists.org/

Just because not ALL atheists are grouped doesn't mean there aren't some of them who might get together and launch a nuke. After all, Christians aren't ALL grouped either.

[Acriku]

What I meant was nationally known as a confined group. Like Christianity is, with churches and such. Even people who like roast beef have websites to gather and express recipes and exchange thoughts! So what is your point? That because they have a website, they have the ability to launch a nuke? Christians have a more probability of doing it because they have physical meeting locations, unlike the websites for athiests.

And also, you are being hypocritical, saying that "just because not all athiests are grouped doesn't mean they wouldn't do it" and then saying "After all, Christians aren't ALL grouped either". Why would use an arguement for one, and use the same situation you are arguing against in your argument?

But this "which can launch a nuke more easily" is kind of dumb.

And it is my opinion that people with freedom, do not think of freedom to be all that good, and that it is something to gamble. People without freedom, will kill themselves so that their children can have freedom. If you will willingly make yourself a slave to something, I would think you don't know what you are getting yourselves into.

And with the boy analogy, you are adding factors so that your point of view would make sense. Manipulating the situation to justify your point of view. Sure "in that situation" I would say his mom has gone to a better place [if he is dying], because he would not need any depressing thoughts for his final thoughts.

And stagnation keeps us away from searching for the truth! The stagnation is the crime, religion is the drug, violence, and rape, and science is the crime-stopper.

No offence to the refering of religion to drugs and stuff, just an analogy.