Kantama Posted April 5, 2002 Posted April 5, 2002 --.-- Hoo boy..... How should I put this delicately? One, Christianity isn't a religion. It's based on a relationship with Jesus Christ. Okay? Alright. Glad you've gotten that into your head. Second, the Bible is VERY scientific! Science is just now catching up to the Bible! Read the book of Job, if you will. It mentions many things that, back then, were not known at all! Geez, I hate repeating myself.....By the way, the reason I don't post much is because one of our horses recently died of colic and we're having to deal with that. Just so you know.Ja matta, people.
The_old_worm Posted April 5, 2002 Posted April 5, 2002 I very strongly disagree Gryphon. Belief does not equal truth, no matter how strongly, nor how many people believe it. Either something is true, or it is false, that is the bottom line and there is no way around it. The big bang(or some form of it) either happened or it didn't, Evolution is either true(in some form) or it is false, the Earth being created in 7 days is either true or false, Eve being created from a rib of Adam is either true or false. No matter how many people believe one or the other, it doesn't change whether it is true or false. This absolute knowledge is outside of our capacity."Anything that makes the world a better place can't be a lie"--GryphonSo, by your logic, Gryphon, If I develope a lie, say, that my dog spoke to me, and told me to tell others that if we don't stop being rude to each other, then he will send peacocks down from heaven to pluck out our eyes, and many people start to believe me beginning a movement of politness around the world, then it is no longer a lie? I know my example is ridiculous, but that is the point. The intentions of a lie do not change the fact that it is a lie."That the basis for a lot of things, when a lot of people agree on a thing it is justified. No matter if it is really good or wrong. It's a justifiable cause, and therefor a good thing"--GryphonSo, again by your logic, a very large group of people believed in Naziism, does that make it justified and good?How do you get around the fact that, as science finds conclusive evidence for it's theories about things such as evolution and the origin of the universe, then the words of the Bible are most likely lies? If these stories come from an all knowing being, then by telling us that Eve came from one of Adam's ribs is a lie. Now, I'm not trying to say that we know with absolute certainty, but, by far the most likely explaination is that either God lied to us or the man who wrote the Bible lied to us.Nema, I agree with what you say except that athiesm is not necessarily Blind Faith. An athiest has absolutely no evidence that God does not exist, just as the faithful have no evidence that he does. So, to take one side or the other, is, by definition, to use blind faith.
Acriku Posted April 5, 2002 Posted April 5, 2002 Please post examples of all these advanced scientific excerpts. And Christianity is a religion, because it is a system of beliefs. It is ALSO a holding of a relationship with Christ. Sorry bout your horse.
Gunseng_Harkonnen Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 Atheism is depend on human that is atheist. If she/he says something like "God doesn`t exist for sure, its stupid that many people believe in this crap, I know everything better", it is blind faith, blind faith in that is no God. But there are atheists that only can`t believe in God becouse of personaly sure, but don`t say that everything believers say is wrong. We will see after dead God exist or not exist.
gryphon Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 You'r right on that [ for now, but that will become clear ], we don't know absolute truth at this moment. And there for we can't make any prediction or use it in any way to base a desission upon.But still we have to make desissoins, without it life would stagnate. Like any logical desission you need a premise before you can even start on your logical assumption. That premise has to be true ! No matter real truth or not.So we belive in the premisse to be true inorder to make the next desission. Without this believe, a disission of any kind would be possible, whatever you deside, you have to have a "truth" in mind. Without it the mind is unable to make any desission.Your exaple with the peacocks. Your followers believe that what you've said is true. It doesn't matter if it is or not. When almost the entire world belives that what you have said is true, it is beyond you, and becomes true to them. "the intentions of a lie do not change the fact that it is a lie", no not the intentions, but a lie can't be identified without a second opinion. A thing on itself can't be a lie. And if that second opinion doesn't contradict the first, the first isn't a lie.The intention of a lie do not say that it really is a lie, it can be to you but who are you to judge if it realy is a lie ?The peacock tried to tell you for years, but you didn't listen or wasn't able to. Now you make up this funny story ant think it's a lie, but in fact it isn't. You just don't know that.What I am saying, we dont' know "absolute truth at this moment", but still we have to have some truth at this point inorder to make desissions. At this truth must always be the "right" and "good" thing for most of the people [ or the persone who makes ] who make the desission.And this can be falsified at a later date, but now, to the persone making the desission, what he believes is true. Else he woun;d never make the desission.
gryphon Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 People used to believe in the Bible, it was true !And we can say it's not truth now, but it ones was. They believed in it, and nothing can change that. They belived that was the truth, just as you make desissions right now. Based on something you assume, you believe. Something that is your truth at this verry moment. But tomorrow .. . .. .Worst case scenario to make it more clear, I hope. :)We now belive in resonable and rational scientiffic explenations. We know science itself doesn't have to be right but the things it can explain in a certain way must be real in a way. Your ideas can be wrong, then you adjust them and move on.By believing in what you do now you fall into the same trap as you warned others for before. Science seems promissing now, and you belive in it. It is a refferance point for other things.What if [ I know ::) ] in hundred years from know science doesn't exist [ just like the totally different way of thinking between Aristoteles and copernicus, not to mention Newton. ]. In 10 years from now they introduce something called "feeling". This enables you to see and instantly know what things are, how it workes etc. Then from that point on sciene is crap ! You can't say science has altered or adjusted to a more correct or suitable form. science doesn't exists anymore. So what we belived in at this point is crap then. But not to us, for us it still is truth.[ I don't say this will or could happen, it's just to make somthing clear :) ]This is not a comment about "absolute truth" [ the post before this wasn't men't as sutch as well ]. In a way it's quite useless to have a discussion about that. It would be the same as purely about religion.One scientist ones said that the truth for science is just like a wharehouse full of matchboxes. Millions of them, and just one contains "absolute truth". so we just start opening them, one by one, learning along the way and seartching for truth.[ commic comment; what if someone behind you trows them back in the warhouse after you've looked at them ;D ]But now serious. What if the verry first matchbox we've opened contained "absolute truth" ? At that point we don't recognise "absolute truth", we have still a lot to learn and new things to explore. So we put it asside and continue our quest. And from that moment it is ment to be doomed. We already had truth, and when we are thinking we are making progress, we arn't getting any further. And whatever progress we make, how great and discovering it will be, we will never again get the matchbox with truth out of the wharehouse.That's my main point, your position is just as all others a position of "believe". You have to have some things that form the basis of your reasoning. And that is truth to you.[ they can change but NOW they are true / truth to you ]So again we have made a circle. First one of "religion in the form of God". Now one of "religion in the form of science".Your first part is your "truth". The thing you believe in. And therefor mine isn't "real". But you forget the point that it's your reasoning patern to start with. So for you that has to be so.[ Either things are true or false is your belive of things, there is a Dutch logic professor that released a work a year ago that there is a 3 option. Don't know the title but if you'd like I can look it up for you. ]
The_old_worm Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 All of your explainations, Gryphon, make a lot of sense, and I agree with all of them but one.
Gunseng_Harkonnen Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 Atheist don`t believe in God but some atheist think that religion is stupid and some think that everyone can believe what he/she want.And I said that we will see after dead who had right.Something must be true but if some of religion is true, then all other religions believers will go to hell. Its kinda not good future for us.
The_old_worm Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 Gunseng, I think people can believe anything they want, it's their choice, but that doesn't make it true.
gryphon Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 Yea, that "feel" part was maybe a bit personal on my part. But I think the point is clear.I agree with you on your ad. to mine.Just again one extra point. ;)The thing we now consider as "truth" could infact be the real truth. Ok, we don't understand it and it has flows, but that could be our uncompleat interpretation at this point. And then the verry thing we are trying to find, is what we have already.Arg, . . this is insane ! ;D
exatreide Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 i was wondering if any of you knew whare i could find the symbols to the major relgions and minor ones. thx.
gryphon Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 If you just want some symboles than simply type in the name of the religion at google and there's usually a site that shows sme of the symboles on it.If you whant more origional symboles and sorted by religion and meaning I suggest you'll have to leave the screen for some time and find your way to the library. They're almost certain to have a religious section where you can find a book on sysmbols or a encyclopedia specialised on religion.If that doesn't work also try to find the "sesam atlas of religion", it's verry simple but also almost certain to have some pictures in it. :)I was just thinking [ so it's just a thought don't take it seriously ]. What if God realy created men as the Bible tels us.And the only thing we have to do is really believe in Him. Than that seems a hell of a difficult thing to do. So it just might be a good way of testing "the faitfull".
The_old_worm Posted April 6, 2002 Posted April 6, 2002 The thing is, Gryphon, that I can pose a contrary and equally plausible theory, mind you, that I don't believe this myself, but, it is good for discussion's sake.I've heard, many times, that the devil's greatest accomplishment was to get man to believe that he didn't exist.
jacobdouds Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 Gunseng, we may see if god is true when we die, but if he is not true, or there is nothing after death, than we will not see if it is true or not.Old Worm, what you just said my very well be true, as it is a good tactic for enslaving the world, and maybe that is what happened. Go Devil. But even if he did do that, what was God doing all this time? And if there is no god, only the devil, then by all definition, he is God.Old Worm, what is with all the E's after your full stops?
Gunseng_Harkonnen Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 Jacob, read my previous post, I wrote that we will see after dead or we will see nothing. Maybe our live energy will go to another body, maybe its something like soul but not given by God. Maybe we are going to another damention. Its only "if".Don`t you think that if good God doesn`t exist and devil is God, our world should be worst? I don`t like idea that we are controled by anyone. Some people are evil cos we are still animals, yes, wiser than other but still. Its not devil`s hand.
Acriku Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 I agree Old worm with a lot you're saying. Things like that make you really think. And Gunseng, we were only told by the Bible and other people and things that the Devil is as bad as he is. For all we know, he put that into our minds, making us fear him. Fear - another form of mass control. So, for all we know he is a good chap with a little wild side.
nemafakei Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 Hm... this harks back to the defining good/evil again..."our world should be worst? "Why? It's all a matter of perspective.
The_old_worm Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 Tell me, how is my theory (which is not my belief by the way), less credible than the truth that is given to us in the Bible?
Digital Guerrilla Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 What is this truth that some here keep saying that can't be found? What truth do you seek, those who swear it can not be found?
TMA_1 Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 religion comes from the greek which roughly means binding one's self. it means to search for god(s) and to submit yourself to them. Christianity didnt teach that men found god or even that they care. it states that humans dont care about the supernatural as much as other things in life. God came to us as christians. He loves us and is doing all things according to the human race after the fall of the shining ones. So no it isnt a religion based on the words. and it isnt based in our love of the lord.
Acriku Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 Do we define words as they were in the past or as they are now? As they are now. And internationally, Christianity is recognized as a religion.
Digital Guerrilla Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 What does the human soul amount to in this lifetime? Even if you do not believe in a deity your life must mean something? There is a seperation of the physical world we live in and the spiritual world. The seperation is death the crossing over from this realm to the next realm of being. If religion is a lie what lie is it? I mean what is the lie being told to us by religion?
Gunseng_Harkonnen Posted April 8, 2002 Posted April 8, 2002 Cruelty in world can shows that God doesn`t exist but not necessary shows that exist devil.Religion may be consider as lie, it made people believe that somebody is out there and even if we suffering it has meaning cos God have mission for us in this life to we have better life in other world. And sometimes it influence on people as much some of them expect from God too much. Like this woman who didn`t take her son to doctor becouse if God wants safe him, he will do it. Maybe its not best exemple but it sometimes makes people to much rely on God.
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