Politician shot down

[Harkonna]

Pim Fortuyn comes from holland, me 2. i wans't exactley for the meaning of Pim Fortuyn, but this really deserves 10 minuts of quietnes... altrough we don't have te assasin jet...

BB

[gryphon]

Again, to non-Dutch readers of this topic some remarks.

We have a law here [ or a combination of laws ] that enfocrce company's, including the police forece to have a certain percentage of "foreign" workers. If they don't meet this number the HAVE to enploy "non-Dutch" workers.

One of the explenations for this is that we can not and may not discriminate and therefor it is only logic that the workers of a company represent the "comment people". When a ceratin percentage of the people is non-Dutch, a certain number of workers in a company also has to be inceherence with this number.

Mayby a personal note, just before this get's out of hand. Some of you already know this but I was one of the people in The Netherlands who liked Pimmy and his ideas. And also considering the cercomstances try to keep this neutral. Don't start agruing about if he was or was not a rasist. If he was right ot not. That debate will not come to any conclusion soon and at this times it would defeniately be "unhuman" to start that debate in my opinion.

There are a lot of things wrong in The Netherlands. But don't forget, we live in one of the most "free contries" to in a way. There will always be things that don't fith, that arn't right, our politics is simply constructed in a way that "not all can be right". So try nt ta make this thread a "hate" thread fot Dutch feelings and politics [ it hasn't happend jet but just in case ], and don't start to place our own political differences both domestic and foreign on this forum. I don't think this is the place for that.

[ again, it's just a warning to keep us all from attacking eatchother here on "personal" and political grounds :) ]

[nemafakei]

I agree, at least in part.

If there is a job going, and a really bad foreign candidate applies, as well as 2 really good non-foreign candidates apply, with those laws, sometimes companies will be forced to give the job to the foreigner.

Which is ridiculous. It happens to an extent in the UK. Plus, it means some UK-born people will be fired to give their jobs to people from ethnic minorities.

[gryphon]

We tend to call, or better, name it as positieve discrimination here. And then we forget that when some one get's "positiefly discriminated" there is also some one else who get "negative descrimination".

But then it is my opinion that evry situation where you threat "non-equal people" [ poeple or always non-equal in a way ] as equals, you forget the personal positin of the individual. This is to me descrimination. Give poeple who are not the same the same rules.

Different people, or at least different groups should get different rules. Rules made for the "better of the group". Not simply to form a coherent system of laws.

It could sound as verry rasist, or things like that. But what I'm basically saying is that you can't expect that a handicapt persone in a wheelchair has the same capabilety's as a persone who stil can walk. Or apply the same rules for holiday to people of different religions. That has got no use, and is mayby more discriminating because we all have to be "forced equals".

[ please note that I'm not stating the opinion of Pim Fortuyn nor any other political group. Nor attacking anyone deliberately, if I am please feel free to let me know. It's just my opinion ]

[Nyarlathotep]

Gryphon, what I stated wasn't towards anyone in the forum here, neither to was it to show Pim was/is a racists. To be honest, there are people even worse then he is/was..

I wa trying to point out that he actually had some good ideas (law punishment). As this topic has shown, who you are going to vote for is personal, which is good !

I also have no problem with people voting for Pim's party !

I just wanted to clear that up and yes, I know what you said wasn't meant for just me :)

It was more my frustration about the current law and we finally had someone who stood up and actually said what he thought (not that I agreed with everything)..

Then some sicko comes along and decides to pull a gun.. I would say, the rest of his life in jail and no possibility of early release..

[gryphon]

My comments [ the warnings ] wern't for you. But you already undertood that ;)

I had a lot of debates the last months about Pim Fortuyn and his politics and a lot of poeple tend to get personal and blame eatchother. Just wanted to post a warning before that should happen.

The remaining part was my opinion, it came out of thin air in this topic in a way. :)

[ And I like that Conspiracy Theory part. It's always the lone gunman, with a good education, fighting in his life for a good cause, never before hurting anyone, acting allone. The Dutch police arn't helping either, they even say less at a pressconferance than that White House spokesman. ]

[Nyarlathotep]

You know, the fact that he got shot might have a good outcome for his party. I think a lot of people will now vote for his party out of sorrow (more the people who didn't know who to vote yet).

LPF might become one of the biggest parties, if not the biggest..

[Marcel71]

Just some FACTS about holland.

Holland has more then 16.000.000 people.

From that there are 1.500.000 NON Western immigrants

There are 1.500.0000 Western immigrants.

There are between 46.000 - 116.000 illigal people.

With other words 20% is foreigner.

But we must remember that Pimmetje wasn't killed because of his ideas about foregneirs. Maybe some of u hate it that some foreigners have higher education and thus better jobs then you !!

And remember ALL those foreigners are needed to pay YOUR pension later !!!

And Kirov, you still didn't tell who your friends were fighting against.

[gryphon]

The politician Pim Fortuyn wasn't "just against foreigners". He aso had verry strong vieuws of our public transport system, our healthcare, the reorganisation of our political system But we must remember that Pimmetje wasn't killed because of his ideas about foregneirs and our military and European policy.

"But we must remember that Pimmetje wasn't killed because of his ideas about foregneirs"

At this point we have no real valid idea on why he was kill, what the motive of the killer was. The justice department and the police arn't saying anything.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

Marcel its none of your concern who my friend's were fighting against.

And remember ALL those foreigners are needed to pay YOUR pension later !!!

And what do you exactly mean with that?

If Pimmetje was still alive, everything in holland could have changed. But once again death is a cruel image of the Devil  :'(

[nemafakei]

I will pay more for foreigners' pensions than they will for mine.

LPF got 20% in the most recent poll I've seen - others got no more than 28- and remember that there is always more turnout within less centrist parties... they could become the leading party, although they probably won't have a majority without coalition.

[gryphon]

I don't like LPF without Pim Fortuyn. He wasn't part of the party, he was the party as some one stated it.

[Nyarlathotep]

Marcel, no one had anything against foreigners, neither against Pim (we just didn't agree with what he said, or better yet, the WAY he said it)..

My example of an immigrant was used to show how wrong the system in Holland is, not meant to flame the immigrants..

For you as well, I know it wasn't meant towards just me, just want to clear things up if any misunderstanding arises :)

Some FACTS we NEED to keep in mind:

1) Pim was no racist

2) Pim was no radical right politician ( there are people far more worse !)

3) There's no need to flame immigrants

4) The Dutch law system is in need of major improvement..

[TMA_1]

To all dutch people. I pity you.lol

Yeah a guy died. frankly a lot better people die every day in the thousands. So what? being sad and upsetted by it wont bring him back or bring justice back. forget about it. he is dead.lol

[gryphon]

I don't think you understand what has happend here. We live in a country where no politician, no major of a city, NO ONE has to walk on the street with a body gard or protection what so ever. [ in times there are exeptions ofcourse ]

Our prime minister goes to his office in the summer on a bike, without gards.

It's not just a guy they have murderd. We don't life the same way here as in the USoA. Poeple don't get killed here, yes they do in other parts of the world, but in The Netherlands the number of murders [ in this way ] is very small compaired to for instance your country.

We have aproxemately the same amount of people as New York. When you would compair statistics on how many people get murderd here, raped, abused and in the state of New York you would have a big laugh. Ours can simply be neglected compaired to New York's.

This may sound hard, but in my opinion we here in The Netherlands really don't need your pitty... it seems however you need ours.

[ don't take it the wrong way, just a reply to your comment. :) ]

A lot better people die ?

Please .. . . first, you didn't know him, seconde why "better" poeple ? Who are you to even judge the fact that one of us should be "better" in being human then any other.

[ And it could be me but I'm not getting that "laughing Out Loud' part. What if we had said to the USoA 3 days after the attack on the WTC "Just forget about it, terrorisme happends evry day, to mutch more people in mutch worse ways." ]

[TMA_1]

If you are going to list him and feel sorry for his death. name every person you know that has died on that same day. you had no relation to him.

sure your country is better in many ways but america is large. It has a graet military. It can kick any other nations butt and in this evil world that is all it basically comes down to. who can defeat who. if you disagree then I suggest studying history.

[gryphon]

I had no relation to him ? Hmmm, what if I tell you he was a professor on a universety I've been to ?

why all persones of that day ? It's about The Netherlands.

And what has the second part, of your army being big and bad got anything to do with any of this ?

Please stop over your army, it where Dutch AWACS planes that helped to gard to USoA when your troopes where send abroth, your army helps just as mutch as a lots of others.

Who can conquer another doesn't have anything to do with a big army in some cases.

And history, some of big cities of the states where ones exually Dutch colonies ;)

[exatreide]

I dont want you to think TMA_1 is expressing the veiws of america as a whole. I think he should have respect or atleast show some sympathy. Yea your lucky your country dosnt have bands of kids that drive around with paint ball guns sparying people like it was a drive by. What i find sad though is that my small little town Goshen IN had more murders in one day than the netherlands had in a year(or thats what the tv guy said) And about the military thing, TMA_1 shut up. So Veitnam produces more rice than us that dosnt mean if you were veitnamese you could enter this disscusion and say 'Yea well we produce more rice than any of you and we could feed you all if we had to' the last part of that post made about as much sense as that would.  I am sick of americans thinking that they are better then the rest of the freaking world.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

I am sick of americans thinking that they are better then the rest of the freaking world.

Same feeling's here. America has to much selfestimate. The problem with them is. If they are gonna continue this way. A third world war will approach for sure.

But once again i don't blame it on the people of America. I blame it on the president.

[ken124578]

what would've happened if bill clinton would still be president now?

hmm...

[Nyarlathotep]

TMA_1, what has the army to do with this discussion ?? ???

Besides that, like Gryphon said, it may not be big news for you in the US, but here in Holland it is. Not to flame you, but I don't think you're in any position to judge how important, or unimportant this issue is for people living in Holland.

For your information, it IS a big issue and DOES have a big impact.

[nemafakei]

TMA, such comments are unnecessary!

We are discussing how this will affect the future. Besides, although you may consider murder to be acceptable and commonplace in the USA, europe is a little more civilised. Far fewer people are murdered in Europe than America (although manslaughter etc is not far behind.)

[Timenn]

About what gryphon said that our prime-minister goes to his office ('het Binnenhof ')|with a bike is a good example about the situation here. It was already mentioned here in the news that becuase this politcians should need guards. Ok, he had driven sometimes in an armoured car (did I translated that well?) when there were conflicts with the farmers. But in general politicians go to work here like a normal bussinessman.

But it's not only about the change of view about the politics here, also about who Pim Fortuyn was.

I was against him, mainly because his view about pollution (he thinks the laws about pollution should be less strict), the murderer was a milieu-activist btw, and about 'het asielbeleid' (the view how to handle with refugees etc.) But I respected him about his popularity created in such less time, and for continueing his plans, even when they were under heavy critic.

This was my view on this

[ken124578]

i guess my last post is totally useless so i'll delete it...

pim fortuyn was an different kind of politician.

[Caid Ivik]

I see this thread is aiming against USA. From 1991 they started feeling dangerous omnipotence, which can in future years to isolation. And that's bad. Especially in today's time, when globalized economy of the world is far more powerful than power of state governments. Russian military power is now still formidable, don't care about american propaganda, but the Russian Federation is weak due to its economical chaos. It seems like governments of USA or EU are just dolls in hands of OPEC and others. Globalisation is strategical, but it must be made by countries too. Nationalists like that Forbryn are the best allies of those neofeudals, who wants strong company controling small states. Come to Slovakia and you'll see what I'm talking about!