Nuclear War

[nampigai]

I think Sharon can be compared with Saddam Hussein, and I believe he should be dealt with the same way as Saddam.

He have totally free hands and doesn't take any of the criticism seriusly. I can understand why the Arabic world condemn the western countries. Why is it that Israel is somehow above the law of the human rights.

Furthermore I didn't get any response on the Russians in Chechnya? Do you think they should be allowed to quell the rebellion?

[Gobalopper]

He is nothing like Saddam. If your country was being attacked by terrorists, much like the US was attacked on September 11th, would you just stand around and do nothing?

I'm not saying he is perfect but he is nothing like Saddam.

[nemafakei]

There should be referenda in Chechnya, guaranteed by a neutral country and the UN.

Israel is often considered above the law, as has been America. Mullah Omar did not plan suicide attacks on America, though he didn't stop one of his people attacking one of his enemies... the same goes for Arafaat and Israel. Arafaat didn't have the power to control rebels - especially since he was too busy defending against the Israelis.

"Do you not understand Nema, the outrage that existed here in the U.S. after 9-11?  "

Yes. I understand what a mob can be like... especially a mob that feels wronged. And such a mob of 280 million, with almost the best armed forces and technology in the world... a dangerous loose cannon. This is one of the problems with America as it is... its poor foreign policy can lead to disaster.

[nampigai]

He is nothing like Saddam. If your country was being attacked by terrorists, much like the US was attacked on September 11th, would you just stand around and do nothing?

I'm not saying he is perfect but he is nothing like Saddam.

You Forget that Israel have been arabic for more or less 800 years and then suddenly after the second world war it became jewish I'm NOT antisemitist but I think that the terrorist here is Sharon, and his hunger for war.

"There should be referenda in Chechnya, guaranteed by a neutral country and the UN"

Then the US can Attack what they see as terrorists and Israel can attack what they see as terrorists but the Russians can't? I don't get it???

[Shiroko]

Talking as an Israeli I might be somewhat bribed to one side, but Sharon is defintely not a terrorist, and Israel is defintely not above the law.

A lot of stuff in the conflict in the Middle East isn't something any Israeli is proud of, but we do our best to fight terror in the most "human" way and minimize casualties.

Today 13 Israeli soldiers died in a battle that could be solved with a few hellfires from an Apache. Instead of destroying the entire building and kill any civilians that might be there the IDF risked casualties.

The problem about terror is that by fighting it you become exactly what you don't want to be.

Sharon intends bringing quiet into the country, and when the Palestinians are led by a man, who sponsors terror, it leaves no choice but to fight it with force. Retreating will not end he attacks, it might delay them for a time, but the same fanatics will then want the rest of Israel for the palestinians people. As long as the palestinians are led by people believing in terror Israel cannot have peave for itself, September 11th showed Americans for one day what living in Israel is, having terror acts commited against civilians leaves very few choice, espceially when the other's side leader keeps supporting them economically while saying he is ready for peace.

As long as the palestinians believe that by terrorising Israel's life they can achieve more in the negotiations we cannot rest. I can assure you thet all the actions in the conflicts are done in the most "human" way possible, there are no massacres (Killing armed enemies is not massacring them), minimum destruction of property (Which sometimes is so ridicoulus that when soldiers leave a house they wash the floor).

We cannot cause any less damage, it's harsh for any humen to stop an Ambulance in a bolckade and start checking it, but the other side has no problem to hide a bomb under a 3 year old kid in one so we have no choice.

We would all prefer it to end, and only a small part of the Israelis is made of fanatics that would rather have this war go on for the sake of territories, we would retreat if it help.

Anyway, I got carried away...

-Shiroko

[nampigai]

War is never fair for anyone, yester day I saw pictures of a 13 year old boy that was killed for throwing stones at a tank.

Terrorism can't be destroyed the way Sharon is doing, he only make it worse and make other countries sumpathize with Arafat, I know Arafat isn't a saint and I don't have sympathy for him, but I must say I have none what so ever for Sharon either.

I believe that the UN or Nato should go in and if necesarry force the Israllian out of the areas.  

[Shiroko]

No one is trying to fight terror and end it by military force, that is of course, impossible.

The goal of this operation is teaching the palestinians that we will not reward them for support terrorist acts, if we do, we will suffer them more.

It is like the USA's policy of not negotiatiing with terrorists, not because the money they or goal they ask is too expensive for the US, but because surrendering to terror will not make it end.

When the UN comes, we will recieve them gladly, it is probably how it will end.

[Terror]

damn... it's hard to make my opinion here.... both sides have some good arguments... Can't they move all jews to the US where most of the jews live already and the arabs take israel?... at least then there would be peace

[nemafakei]

"only a small part of the Israelis is made of fanatics "

The same is true for all nations... its just that the weak cannot control their own, and instead of Sharon working with Arafaat, Both leaders refuses to co-operate against the fanatics, and so each side fights all the others.

Terror, the point is that the land is sacred to both sides - neither wants the other to have it.

[nampigai]

If you look at some of the conditions the palestinian lives under, it's not so hard to understand their distress and that they are willing to die.

*Note I don't support the suicide bomns at all

[Terror]

well great.. those religious fools made religious places in the same region... god.... sounds like there's no solution no....

[nemafakei]

The solution is to onvert them all, but that's another matter...

"If you look at some of the conditions the palestinian lives under, it's not so hard to understand their distress and that they are willing to die. "

True, but the suicidal attacks only make it worse.

[Gobalopper]

Moving the Jews to the US isn't a solution, the costs alone would make it almost impossible.

People in Africa live in far worse conditions and I don't see them strapping a bomb to their body and going off and killing themselves. And they aren't doing it because of their living conditions, how does killing Israeli's improve that?

Sharon has tried to work with Arafat but how do you negotiate with someone who wants the destruction of your country? Israel has been willing to give up land but when you have people like Saddam Hussein giving money to the family of suicide bombers it isn't exactly easy to keep ceasefires.

[nampigai]

As I said I do not agree with them but I understand their distress.

[Shiroko]

Thier distress is a result of a corrupted goverment, not that I'd call it a goverment, no democracy and people like Arafat are loaded with money while the rest of the palestinians live in 3rd world conditions aided only by effects from Israel. A lot of palestinians would rather live in Israel than in Palestine where they a much better health system, texing, support and other bonuses resulting by living in a western country.

By the way, the Islaming temples are not build in Israel by accident, they'rebuilt there for the same reasons the land is sacred to Jews and Christians.

[vidiware]

The different Religions are there, because the religions started as the same, great thing, then they got divorced, and over 1000 of year, the belive got more and more seperated, then they negan too fight...

[nampigai]

I know Gob, but you still see war in africa all the time, I don't want to compare them. You see young boys being shot by Israelli forces for throwing stones at tanks, what are they going to do?

As I've said before I don't like any of the leaders one of the solutions could be to throw of the leaders and get some fresh blood who are willing to make peace, cause the two they have at the moment sure in hell wont make peace, it seem more a contest between arafat and sharon on who has the largest penis.

[Shiroko]

Palestinians do not get shot for throwing rocks,  especially not small children.

Small children don't even get shot for placing bombs (Which they do a lot as they are sent by their perants).

They do get shot by accident, but not intentionally. IDF orders are to shoot armed people only (Molotov cocktails count as a weapon for that cause).

Just wanted to clear that up.

-Shiroko

[Terror]

:-(... i agree with new leaders... and let them arrest or kill the trouble makers so that the people who do want to live together CAN live together.... it's just that a small band of people disturbs the peace

[The_old_worm]

The question about Chechnya, deals with the question; Do governments have the right to put down rebellions? I can't give a universal answer to that, it depends on the situation. I think, in general, they do have that right to preserve their countries. It's a tough question though.

Sharon has been willing to accept peace deals and cease fires.  The Isrealis have done just about everything they can diplomatically.  They have the right to defend themselves from the Palestenians, as long as they are targeting terrorists and the Palestinian military.  There is a major difference between a child getting shot in the crossfire of a battle on accident, and a child strapping bombs to her body and blowing up a cafe.

I understand the anger of the Palestinians.  I would be angry too, but Arafat is using that anger for his own ends.  He wants either to become a martyr for his people or a legandary freedom fighter.  Contunuing the war is means to those ends. Just look as his popularity throughout the Arab countries, do you think that doesn't motivate him?

I think there are many people to blame, including the Arab countries for encouraging him.  If they would take away their support, he would have no more hope to become this legendary icon in the Muslim world.

I don't understand this naivety that many people show on these issues. They expect these countries to lie down and negotiate with their enemies while they are being brutalized by them. The bottom line is, if a country is attacked, they have the right to defend themselves.

[nemafakei]

"IDF orders are to shoot armed people only (Molotov cocktails count as a weapon for that cause). "

The BBC's news reporters gets shot at and threatened, simply for being there, filming what the army is doing. And the red cross ihas been prevented from entering cities where there are casualties.

Israel is not reacting correctly. Sharo thinks repressing the Arabs and frightening Arafat will make them stop blowing themselves up, yet it seems obvious that this will only make the population in general more determined.

[Shiroko]

The Red Cross and humanatary shipments are always welcome, they however have to be checked before entering.

The Palestinians make problems about thier corpses, they wish to leave the corpses lying around so the press would go on and film it and it'll look like a massacre.

The press isn't shot upon by intention. Though there are enough dumb soldiers around that shoot when they're not ordered too. That and mistakes is the reason a lot of civilians die in the process, but defintely much less civilians that died in Afganistan or in Chechniya.

-Shiroko

[nampigai]

I read the news today, and there was an article about a girl that was shot in the head for looking out of the window.

Furthermore about the press how can they not see that they are press they have frag vests with a huge TV or PRESS on. and last night I saw a man get shot for trying to retrieve the body of another man, this man had no gun and he tried to get in a man who could be alive needing help to survive.

You say that the Israellian are allowed to defend them self, but aren't the palestinian, during the second world war Denmark was occupied as was alot of other countries. Some of the young men tried to harm  the german wehrmacht and if they got cought they would be killed, yet I don't see them as terrorists.

[Terror]

i must agree with nampigai here  :-/

[nemafakei]

"The press isn't shot upon by intention"

In the filming I saw (by Orla Guerrin in Bethlehem, from a BBC report a few days ago) it was obviously deliberate.

"how can they not see that they are press "  And big cameras, too. But Shiroko never said they couldn't tell.

"The Red Cross and humanatary shipments are always welcome, they however have to be checked before entering. "

For a day? When it was obvious who they were and what they were doing and the need of doing it.

I know you mean well, Shiroko, but from where I'm standing (ie not in Sharon's country) Israel is no better than the palestinians.