Don't You Just Hate...?

[That Guy]

Nit.  Picking.

Animation sucks. Character design sucks (or at least, isn't classic, which makes Sega a liar, thus giving reason to dislike them). Gameplay sucks. ETC

If that's nitpicking, what isn't?

Just because the game moved back to 2D and they dropped some retards out it's an excellent game equal to the classics?

If I ruined some game by adding a host of rejects and retarded features, and then removed a <i>few</i> of them, would the game be as good as before?

They're keeping aspects that make the game accessible to this generation's drooling youth, who need games fed almost intravenously.  A lot of what that dolt (and you, by extension) describe as "classic gameplay" were just limitations.  Did you never run so fast in the original games that the camera couldn't keep up?  Do you honestly believe that they wouldn't have made it even faster if they could?

So the underwater zones like Labrynth and other places were made as a technical limitation? By your logic, none of those levels should exist. Why would they make slow underwater levels if the game is all about speed? Those levels in particular (this is the case for most levels) could have been MUCH faster. If Sonic is about speed, then why are most levels in Sonic 1 so much slower than Green Hill zone.

Every other zone in the game is slower. Marble zone, Spring Yard zone (a little faster than Marble Zone but still way slower than GHZ), Labyrinth (slows to a crawl), Starlight Zone (like Spring Yard Zone), Scrap Brain Zone (slow to a crawl or die).

In other words, most of the game is way slower than the first level. The minimum possible maximum speed they could achieve with their tech is demonstrated by the first level (maybe it could go faster but they decided against it). So why make every level far slower than they could?

If you don't like the homing attack, don't bloody use it, unless the gameplay requires it (hitting a button or something).

Even if the player doesn't use the homing attack, that doesn't change the fact that the game is designed for it's use. Therefore, in this sense, it's existence worsens the game whether or not you use it. Not to mention, many enemy chains blockade paths completely (combine this with the fact that you come out of your ball animation whenever you leave a slope, and you are forced to use homing attack to avoid being hurt). In addition, there are times when they are the only way to a location. So, you often have to use them anyway... unless you accept certain paths being blocked off... which of course detriments the game (in a normal game, all paths would be open and so there would be less wasted paths)

The important part is that Sonic 4 is a drastic about-turn, going back to the roots that made the games great in the first place.

It's not going back to the roots. It has modern Sonic (not classic whether you like him or not), modern ''kewl'' animation and modern gameplay.

Speed is what Unleashed (daytime) and Rush were all about just like most recent Sonic games (when they weren't wasting time with random cr@p like emerald hunting).

If you think speed is what the series is all about, then the roots have been kept pretty well (side idiots excluded). In which case, there is STILL nothing to be excited about.

This game is just like Rush, Advance 2 and 3, Sonic Adventure 2, Day time Unleashed, e.t.c. All of those games were shit, and this will be no different.

And here's another thing, even if those and Sonic 4 ARE like the old games, that doesn't save them from sucking. Holding right, memorizing the pitfalls, and going through a few QTEs does not make a good game. It makes a slightly interactive movie. If the classics were like that, then they suck.

And one smegging video certainly isn't "more than enough"

There are many videos. Every zone has been leaked. In other words, you can see the whole game.

Play the inevitable free demo for yourself and form your own opinions, instead of letting this Nicochi person do it for you.

(Another aside: I hate it when people use the opinions of other people as the basis for their own.  Unless it's a trusted friend or family member, or a clear black and white scenario, there's no basis to do this.  Form your own opinions for your own reasons, for crying out loud.)''

Can I help it if he's convincing? I read what he said, thought it was convincing, and now "his opinion is my own". What do you want, for me to take up an opinion I think is incorrect just so I have my "own opinion"?

In any case, he actually just pointed out a few things for me. After that I thought about it and came to the same conclusion he did.

Actually, I thought this game sucked without Nicochi getting involved. He just pointed out some things about the series in general, which I agreed with and thought applied to this game as well.

Edit: Oh yeah, just thought I'd mention that removing everybody except Sonic and EggmanRobotnick doesn't seem like "going back to the roots" because the "roots" involved Knuckles and Tails. People think side characters are bad because Sega's new side characters suck and they lameified Knuckles and Tails. But it's not side characters that are bad, it's bad characters that are bad... just like in most other games.

[Dragoon Knight]

Details are good.  Let's cover all of your points.

- Animation is acceptable for a downloadable game.

- Character design?  It's the same Sonic it's been for a good long time.  I prefer the original design, too, but I'm not about to whine about it.

- Gameplay sucks, does it?  Your opinion is based on one or more videos.  All you know for certain is that it looks like you won't like it.

- I never said it was "excellent", or "equal to the classics".  I said it was a massive step in the right direction.

- Your point regarding adding / removing elements from a game doesn't make sense, since Sonic 4 is more like the originals than it is the newer, unsuccessful games.

- The Labyrinth Zone used speed in a different way; you had the water tunnels, neverending waterfalls that you had to jump just right on to bypass, plus the constant threat of rising water in the Act 3 boss fight.

- You don't understand my logic, so please don't infer that you can follow it to another assertion.

- They didn't make a "slow underwater level" - see above.

- They could have been much faster in terms of running, but like I've said, they used speed differently.  Otherwise it would have been boring.

- All levels in the original Sonic games used speed in some way or another; the variety was what made the games interesting to play and not just another sidescroller.

- Marble Zone, you have to avoid lava that chases you, spikes that drop on you from above, lava waterfalls... you have to time yourself in jumping onto or running under blocks.  Plenty speedy.

- Spring Yard Zone is quite possibly the fastest of the zones in terms of activity.  Just because you're not holding down right on the D-Pad and occasionally tapping A, doesn't mean you don't have to negotiate huge ramps, spinning spikes, those stupid blue roller badniks, spiked balls chasing you, lifts constantly moving... again, plenty speedy.

- Labyrinth, I've already dealt with.

- Starlight Zone is full of twisting ramps and loop-de-loops.  It has rows of bombs that go off if you don't run through them quickly enough.  It has stairs that bend and flow, only meeting very briefly.  You need to be quick and agile.

- Scrap Brain Zone has a myriad of moving gears and crushing compactors.  It has flame vents and pitfalls and danger at every turn.  I agree that it is the "slowest" of the zones, but it's also tied for the hardest with the Labyrinth Zone, and it extend to the Final Zone, where speed and agility are the only things that will keep you alive.

- The entire game uses speed in different ways; it's not "slower".

- They could certainly have made every zone faster in terms of running from point A to point B, but the Green Hill Zone is just the start.  Its speed is straightforward, to ease the gamer into the gameplay.

- They didn't make "every level far slower", as I've explained above.

- It's designed for its use in some situations; it doesn't worsen the game automatically as you describe it.

- Enemy chains that necessitated its use would certainly be one reason to use it.

- Coming out of the Super Sonic Spin Dash as you leave a slope is something that would annoy me, but it's not game-breaking.  It's a niggle, and not everyone would notice it.  Some people don't "play it safe" (i.e. the act of curling up just in case there are enemies that you might land on) and run up slopes and ramps.  You're not forced to use a homing attack - you're forced to be careful.

- Again, if you have to use it, then use it.  It's like Knuckles' gliding or Tails' flying in S3 or S&K - sometimes you need to use it.

- You're repeating yourself, and that means I have to as well.  You don't "often have to use them" - you only have to use them when the way is impassable without them.  Did you complain this much when Sonic 2 had the Super Dash Attack?  You could always run back a bit and build up speed, but it was only necessary in Sonic 3's Death Egg Zone.

- If you need to use it to access all paths, then use it.  That, again, would be a situation where it would need to be used.

- In a normal game, "all paths would be open"?  No.  In just about every game, even platformers, there are paths that need special moves or keys or abilities to access.  Sonic is no exception, not even in the classics.  Sonic 2 & Knuckles, Chemical Plant Zone, Act 2 - Knuckles can get an extra life by climbing a wall near the end.

- It very much is going back to the roots.  It's headed in the right direction, it's picking up from the original plot and it's using the two main characters alone; Sonic and Robotnik.

- The animation is acceptable, like I said.  Not ideal, but acceptable.

- Your issues with the gameplay (i.e. speed, homing attack) have been described, in detail, above.

- Speed is what every Sonic game is about, as I've described above.

- "Crap like emerald hunting" has been core to just about every Sonic game I can think of off the top of my head.  Certainly the important ones (i.e. the originals).

- I should use copy and paste more... speed is what every Sonic game is about.  He's a blue hedgehog.  Do you know how he got that way?  Broke the sound barrier.  I know the story off by heart.

- Going back to the roots (i.e. what made the originals great) is certainly something to be excited about.

- The games you describe made little or no attempt to emulate the originals, in anything more than perhaps a 2D design, and that was a limitation they would have liked to have lived without.  In this case, it's a goal they've actively worked towards.

- Your argument is now "every other Sonic game has been shit, so will this one"?  Now you're grasping at straws - there's a lot that's good about this game that hasn't been present in any other Sonic game for a good while.  Even if it serves as a transition to something more refined, more like the originals, it'll still be a better game for it.

- And now you say that "even if they are like the originals, they'll still be shit"?  Now you're contradicting yourself.  You say you hate Sega for ruining Sonic, yet now you imply that they were never good in the first place?

- Unless the videos are confirmed as being of the final product, they're of little value.  And even a hundred videos won't compare to playing it yourself.  Watching someone play a game is boring, except in specific circumstances ("Let's Play" for example).

- Convincing is one thing.  Even agreeing is fine.  But until now, all you've done is said "read this, this is my opinion".  Even now, all you're doing is paraphrasing what's been written.  How much is your own opinion?

- I would never ask anyone to accept or hold an opinion they didn't believe.  I would ask that they form their opinions on their own, though.

- Now you're backtracking, qualifying.  From "here's a review telling me why it's going to suck" and "this is my opinion", to "no, this was always my view".  I'm not so sure I believe you.

There we are.  I believe I've countered every point you (or Nicochi) made.  Do let me know if there's anything I didn't address. :)

EDIT: You made an edit!  Best address that as well.

- The roots didn't involve Knuckles and Tails.  To use the metaphor correctly, Sonic 1 would be the roots.  Sonic 2 would be a solid trunk, defining the game.  Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles would be branches, expanding and interweaving with other games (Sonic 1's Blue Sphere's game, Sonic 2 & Knuckles, Sonic 3 & Knuckles).  The various offspring like Sonic Chronicles and Sonic Adventure and Sonic & Mario, etc. are all leaves.  I do hope you follow.

- No, Sega screwed up on the adding of characters.  Yes, they became shallow, but there was also simply far too many.  Shadow was a cool idea, but implemented oh so very poorly.  Don't even get me started on the rest of them.

- Yes, bad characters are bad.  I'm glad we established this.

[Mahdi]

I won't write a dissertation like those two people above me, but I do have this to add:

10, 15 years after the last time I played Sonic 2 I gave it another go a few months ago.  I beat the game in 25 minutes (Emerald Hill to Death Egg, Sky Zone and Death Egg being the only exceptions) by never letting go of the right D-pad button.

Sure, you can spend an entire day exploring all the different paths and searching for all the rings and going to all the special stages, and that was a great part of the game.  But it's also possible to drop the hammer and speed through everything and that option has always been there, despite the claims of some people. 

[ErasOmnius]

Glad Frank didn't feel...and that Brian and Kevin don't feel, like they have to make Dune like soft-core porn.

[Mahdi]

Glad Frank didn't feel...and that Brian and Kevin don't feel, like they have to make Dune like soft-core porn.

Yeah, I much prefer Franks hardcore porn.

[ErasOmnius]

Yeah, I much prefer Franks hardcore porn.

Are you talking about the "beef-swelling" from Children?

[Andrew]

Are you talking about the "beef-swelling" from Children?

I thought there was lots in Heretics and Chapterhouse. Murbella/Duncan especially.

[MrFlibble]

I've heard there's quite a few pervy scenes in the new "Here's-another-of-our-100500-books-we-felt-like-writing of Dune" instalments ::)

[SandChigger]

Yeah. One or both of the new "writers" (snicker) has some serious issues.

Brian's probably stem from those times FH hooked the lie detector up to his 'nads.

[Mahdi]

Yeah. One or both of the new "writers" (snicker) has some serious issues.

Brian's probably stem from those times FH hooked the lie detector up to his 'nads.

Are you talking about Winds of Dune?  'Cause that's the only one I haven't read, and I don't remember the others being especially sexual. 

I remember Man of Two Worlds having a lot of explicit sex, but I was also around 13 when I read it.

[Khan]

Anyone else just google dune porn?

Edit: Oh and also the Czech language, this thing is freaking ridiculous! :-X

[Kiyouta]

Beef-Swelling LOL... Are you a cow?

Khan: All I got was a lot of porn stars called "Dune" or "Dunes". Shame.

But I did get this through Google Images:

Nice.

[MrFlibble]

Khan: All I got was a lot of porn stars called "Dune" or "Dunes". Shame.

Them porn stars sure have weird names! :D

(I've just had a horrendous second thought that maybe there's a custom among porn stars to have nicknames after well-known works of fiction :O)

[Andrew]

Don't want to make a seperate thread.

Don't you just hate when image files to download don't work?

CMRC

If anyone can figure out how the website screwed up the downloads of the images (first .jpg should be fine, I don't have adobe software) it would be much appreciated. Maybe they linked them incorrectly, or they are just not on the server. Looks like the lab. server doesn't exist anymore :( maybe someone else on internet had them downloaded/copied.

Find me a logo of it that is big similar to top left corner of website but larger, going to be used for some image design on a bike.

And no I don't race, this is for someone else.

google is not finding it, and waybackmachine doesn't have it that I know of.

[ErasOmnius]

Beef-Swelling LOL... Are you a cow?

Khan: All I got was a lot of porn stars called "Dune" or "Dunes". Shame.

But I did get this through Google Images:

Nice.

Yeah, I'm a cow. Just quoting from CoD.

Although I will say that the "Hunters" chapter [one of the over a hundred] with Sheeana and Duncan having a good time was a pretty good one.