Has anyone bought Winds of Dune yet?

[Dunenewt]

I've got it, and am planning to read it tomorrow on a 5 hour coach journey to London.

[Dante]

But there are so much less painful ways to spend the time on a 5 hour coach journey to London. DIY dentistry for example.

[Dunenewt]

I've read a bit of it, and it seems good so far, although I'm a bit confused about why a navigator's neck would be cartilige not bone...

[Sneakgab]

Maybe the inevitable DIY dentistry will help enlighten you.

[SandChigger]

I've read a bit of it, and it seems good so far, although I'm a bit confused about why a navigator's neck would be cartilige not bone...

Oh, gee, I don't know ... how about ... Kevin J. Anderson is an idiot? :D

I assume you've finished reading the whole wad of WoD by now? Any thoughts?

Wasn't it a GRAND piece of excremental exposition? :)

[ErasOmnius]

It was not a bad book.

I think Brian and Kevin should drop the extrapolation of Paul's childhood, especially where Paul has to be the "savior of the month". I felt in "Paul of Dune" it was somewhat believable that Paul could be hunted down on Caladan as a youth. I have some concerns about Paul, teaming up with Bronso [Vernius] of Ix, and joining a performing group for 2 months.

As far as the part of the book that covers part of Paul's reign, and the month after him walking into the desert, it is a much better read.

[SandChigger]

If you say so, sugar. :D

But I gotta say that I really do feel sorry for anyone whose reading experiences to date have been so impoverished and dire that they can honestly (there's a key word, eh?) think that these McDune books are "good" or even deserve to be called literature. :(

[ErasOmnius]

If you say so, sugar. :D

But I gotta say that I really do feel sorry for anyone whose reading experiences to date have been so impoverished and dire that they can honestly (there's a key word, eh?) think that these McDune books are "good" or even deserve to be called literature. :(

Sandchigger to the audience: "So there's this guy in early October 2009 who thoughfully debated me on Expanded Dune. [audience laughs] He had some valid points, or so it seemed. But we know what kind of person he was. [audience laughs]."

Audience member: "Hey, what about the claims from reviewers back in 1981 that Frank Herbert had run out of ideas for characters, and simply was recycling Duncan Idaho for use in 'God Emperor'? And again in 1985 with 'Heretics' and 'Chapterhouse'. And Scytale too, and Frank had even forgotten he was a Face Dancer, and made him a Tleilaxu Master?"

Sandchigger: "Frank's a god!" [there's that laughter]

Audience member: "What about readers claims that 'Chapterhouse' would be better as a short story, and is almost a run on of 'Heretics'?"

Sandchigger: "Frank's a god!" [giggles and guffaws]

Audience member: "If Duncan Idaho is not the final super-being, or some other major pinnacle point of human existence, why would Frank keep using him, and using him, and using him, and using him?"

Sandchigger: "Frank's a god!" [hilarious belly busting laughter and etc]

Trust me, that is just the beginning of the flaws of Frank Herbert. For those of us who have been around for decades, and were around when Frank published the Grand 6, we know that he was just a man -- and could not get it right all of the time -- but still published 1 masterpiece, 2 very good books, 2 good books, and 1 not so good [Chapterhouse].

Plus, he had about 10 books that are tough, near-silly reads.

Frank Herbert would have been the first to say that he was just a man, not the God that the Origial "Dune" worshippers have made him out to be. Do you think Frank was trying to mirror the way people treated him in the late 60s with the adulationas of the publication of "Dune", with the way the Fremen treated Muad'Dib?

Don't call me sugar.

[MrFlibble]

Correct me if I'm wrong. From your lengthy post it could be understood that you admit that the new books have flaws, and your counter-argument to this is that the original books have various flaws either.

That's not a very good strategy, now is it? Making mistakes in your own books is one thing, and, you know, in general, errare humanum est. But making mistakes when you're writing in someone else's universe is a bit different. One has got a big, no, huge responsibility when one attempts to continue the legacy of another writer.

"Hey, what about the claims from reviewers back in 1981 that Frank Herbert had run out of ideas for characters, and simply was recycling Duncan Idaho for use in 'God Emperor'? And again in 1985 with 'Heretics' and 'Chapterhouse'. And Scytale too, and Frank had even forgotten he was a Face Dancer, and made him a Tleilaxu Master?"

Why do you think those are mistakes and not intended plot twists? You have to prove it that Frank was too unimaginative to invent a bunch of new characters instead of recycling the old ones.

Besides, I've always thought that Scytale is around because of the Tleilaxu ghola immortality project. So he's like a living illustration to this concept.

Sandchigger: "Frank's a god!"

I've never heard SandChigger, or anyone else for that matter, use this "argument". I can only interpret it as you're trying to make your opponents appear less intelligent by making them seem to use such a silly argument. It ain't fair play, IMO.

"What about readers claims that 'Chapterhouse' would be better as a short story, and is almost a run on of 'Heretics'?"

Maybe those guys were right, I don't know. But the point is, it has nothing to do with the new books by KJA and BH.

"If Duncan Idaho is not the final super-being, or some other major pinnacle point of human existence, why would Frank keep using him, and using him, and using him, and using him?"

There is no concept of a "final super-being" in the original books. Throughout the books, FH had always argued the opposite: that the evolution goes on, that the Universe and Humanity have an unlimited developmental potential etc. etc.

Other than that, what you say about the "final super-being" is just an interpretation. Support this with some solid evidence, or it doesn't count.

Trust me, that is just the beginning of the flaws of Frank Herbert. For those of us who have been around for decades, and were around when Frank published the Grand 6, we know that he was just a man -- and could not get it right all of the time -- but still published 1 masterpiece, 2 very good books, 2 good books, and 1 not so good [Chapterhouse].

Plus, he had about 10 books that are tough, near-silly reads.

Frank Herbert would have been the first to say that he was just a man, not the God that the Origial "Dune" worshippers have made him out to be. Do you think Frank was trying to mirror the way people treated him in the late 60s with the adulationas of the publication of "Dune", with the way the Fremen treated Muad'Dib?

So now you're implying that people who criticize the new books are just a bunch of fanatics. Did you pick that one up from the new "Heroes" installments? Is that also a part of the "Dune was an in-universe propaganda text" plan?

[ErasOmnius]

I feel that the "Dune" universe belongs to the designated heirs of Frank Herbert, as written by Brian Herbert. "Dune" belongs to the Herbert family.

My solid evidence of the over-use of Duncan Idaho is this. Why?

I know Frank Herbert is not around to defend himself on "Heretics" or "Chapterhouse" [by the way, "Heretics" is my favorite overall "Dune" book].

By why...why? Why do we have to have Duncan Idaho guiding us around the "Dune" universe for 5000 years? Almost everything else in "Dune" has a reason or an explanation.

But no, not Duncan. Frank Herbert doesn't have to explain Duncan. We can't EVER say that Frank Herbert was nayhting less than perfect.

"Duncan was my father's best friend, so I'll keep resurrecting him...over and over," Leto II.

"Duncan is so cool, we will just keep resurrecting him for the fun of it.", say the Tleilaxu of the Old Empire during the Scattering.

With glaring holes like this, why shouldn't Brian and Kevin try to solve their father's enigmas?

Don't even get me started on the Scattering. How can the Honored Matres come back to the Old Empire with a 1000 to 1 advantage over the Bene Gesserit? What kind of reproductive cycle is that? Who invented the Obliterators? All of this happened in only 1500 years? Frank Herbert's Scattering-math simply does not add up.

You don't see why Brian and Kevin had to put the Thinking Machine Empire out there -- waiting, with their already developed technology. Who else could Daniel and Marty be? You keep blaming Brian and Kevin for trying to make everything fit in the Scattering-universe, but it's Frank Herbert who caused the problem. Should have made it a lot, lot longer than 1500 years.

Let's open up this matter of Honored Matres sexual enslavement. Now biologically, explain that one to me.

You see, if one doesn't start off that Frank is perfect, then "Dune" can be a living, breathing, work of art. One that has to be fixed by the next generation.

[SandChigger]

Sugar, I don't know how many "decades" you've been around, but I started reading Dune when there were only three books. But I'm sure you had a point there somewhere.

And as MrFlibble pointed out, I'm not one of your supposed "Frank was a God!" worshippers. Far from it, in fact. But I do believe that for all his faults he was a REAL WRITER, and not a HIKING HACK whose works are DERIVATIVE at best. :)

(And unless Brian Herbert has somehow managed to have Frank Herbert adopt KJA both retroactively AND posthumously, referring to him as "their father" is just wrong.)

Please, spout some more gibberish for us. :)

[MrFlibble]

I feel that the "Dune" universe belongs to the designated heirs of Frank Herbert, as written by Brian Herbert. "Dune" belongs to the Herbert family.

Erm, I've always thought that any book, once published, belongs to all the readers, regardless of their relations to the author. But I wouldn't protest if the new books were sold exclusively to the Herbert family members :P

By why...why? Why do we have to have Duncan Idaho guiding us around the "Dune" universe for 5000 years? Almost everything else in "Dune" has a reason or an explanation.

I don't think everything has an explanation in Dune. Examples include such important phenomena as prescience, Other Memory, various Atreides genetically-dependent effects. Does it need an explanation, anyway? Maybe Frank thought of Duncan as of his alter ego in the Dune universe? Who knows?

"Duncan was my father's best friend, so I'll keep resurrecting him...over and over," Leto II.

Leto II used Duncan in his breeding program plans, not just to entertain himself with the latter's company.

"Duncan is so cool, we will just keep resurrecting him for the fun of it.", say the Tleilaxu of the Old Empire during the Scattering.

Maybe they do in your copy of the book, but in mine, they produced Duncan gholas at the Sisterhood's request. Of course, they had some plan of their own too.

With glaring holes like this, why shouldn't Brian and Kevin try to solve their father's enigmas?

That's a little bit far-fetched in my opinion. I do agree that, even if the instances above are not considered "glaring holes", Dune has lots of enigmas to be solved. What I can't agree with is that Brian and Kevin get the exclusive right to do so, and then present the rest of the world their outcome as some kind of an ultimate truth. I wouldn't agree with that even if their books were better than they really are.

Don't even get me started on the Scattering. How can the Honored Matres come back to the Old Empire with a 1000 to 1 advantage over the Bene Gesserit? What kind of reproductive cycle is that? Who invented the Obliterators? All of this happened in only 1500 years? Frank Herbert's Scattering-math simply does not add up.

I think the conditions Leto II created during his reign lead to explosive rates of human progression in both colonizing new worlds and population growth. It is no wonder people from the Scattering outnumbered the Old Empire inhabitants, because initially more people went into Scattering, and those who remained were relatively few in comparison.

You don't see why Brian and Kevin had to put the Thinking Machine Empire out there -- waiting, with their already developed technology. Who else could Daniel and Marty be? You keep blaming Brian and Kevin for trying to make everything fit in the Scattering-universe, but it's Frank Herbert who caused the problem. Should have made it a lot, lot longer than 1500 years.

Bad author, Frank, bad!

Seriously, blaming everything on FH is such an indecent thing. If his books are as flawed as you say, why Brian and Kevin even bothered writing sequels in the first place? Why all the effort if the originals are an incomprehensible mess?

Let's open up this matter of Honored Matres sexual enslavement. Now biologically, explain that one to me.

Now, this is not a Discovery Channel programme. Frank was pointing at the power of the sexual drive and its effects on society, and I doubt he intended to give any scientific explanation to what is basically a hyperbole.

You see, if one doesn't start off that Frank is perfect, then "Dune" can be a living, breathing, work of art. One that has to be fixed by the next generation.

I believe my idea of a "living, breathing work of art" is different than yours. I doubt any work of art was created with the intention "to be fixed by the next generation".

[Ampoliros]

DRUMROLL:

ErasOmnius is either KJA in the flesh or so far up his bunghole as to be one and the same anyway.

I don't think Frank was a God, but I do consider DUNE sacred (as in a masterpiece of human acheivement).

He got things wrong.  He took criticism.  He was Human, as evidenced by his death.

So, DUNE needs to be fixed eh?  Not enough PEW PEW in it? no laser swords? how exactly do you define Sci-Fi anyway?  (SyFY?)

[Tezcatlipoca]

First I should point out that a few people in this thread should probably step back and chill. You're pretty much in petty bickering stage as opposed to civil (and useful) discussion, or even heated argument stages.

Maybe if it was brought down to more civil level, you'd see more people weighing in with opinions and points of interesting discussion. Of course, this topic (not the original, but what it has turned into) has so far been done to death over the last few years I doubt there's anything new left to go over.

But I do have enough time to do at least one point of fact checking.

Don't even get me started on the Scattering. How can the Honored Matres come back to the Old Empire with a 1000 to 1 advantage over the Bene Gesserit? What kind of reproductive cycle is that? Who invented the Obliterators? All of this happened in only 1500 years? Frank Herbert's Scattering-math simply does not add up.

First, try to take note that (as you've already pointed out) the Honored Matres had some interesting sexual abilities. So if they felt (as it seems they did) that they had a destiny to return to the core and dominate, they obviously would know they need a numbers advantage, they certainly could do so as long as they had the resources to support populations that large.

One interesting aspect about a universe with as high a number of habitable planets as the Duniverse has (which we're finding is possibly more realistic than not), is that you essentially can support *very* large populations.

Now, I don't recall (and don't have time to look up) how many people left in the original scattering, or how many were left at the core, or even what the peek population was in the core when it reached (if it ever did) a stable peek where resources were being used in near totality, but lets assume some *very* conservative figures (and ones I know are flat out too low).

Assuming a growth rate of 0.462% per year (remember that at our peak in the '60s, the world reached 2.2%), 1500 years would be just enough to provide a 1000x increase in an original population size.

So lets say that the core planets started with the same number of people as that in the scattering. The core has we'll say a more reasonable growth rate of 1%. To achieve a 1000x advantage, the scattering would only need about 1.395%, or a 0.395%

increase in population growth.

If we also assume that both reached a stable population growth with those figures to achieve that, then the scattering planets must make up approximately 58.2% of the total habitable space in the galaxy, and the core the rest of the 41.8%.

Guessing at an even distribution of habitable space across the galaxy (that's not how galaxies work of course), and that the core planets were actually at the core (an impossibility for most galaxies that we would consider habitable), and guessing that the Duniverse galaxy is the same size as ours, (~100,000 Light years across), then the core of the galaxy is about 64,652.92 Light Years in diameter. That makes the scattering's ring no thicker than 35,347.08 Light Years across, or just over half the diameter of the core.

Basically, that means traveling for exploration purposes (not using fold space, which I assume requires predetermined coordinates) would have taken half of the time to reach the furthest extent of the scattering from the edge of the core, than to reach the furthest extent of the core from the center.

Again since I don't have the data on hand, we can say it took the early space faring people 10k years to settle the core. The scattering took 1.5k years to cover half the distance. But assuming that you have approximately 1.6x10^36 more people than you started with when you started populating the core (since we're not talking about one ship going in a straight line) assuming that 1% growth rate for the core, I'd say 1.5k years is definitely more than sufficient to settle the core and obtain the numerical advantage.

Most of those numbers and calculations weren't necessary of course, because we can probably assume the core didn't reach just max population growth, but actually max population *support*, their growth would have dropped to 0. Which means populating unsettled area beyond the core could produce up to 1000x the size with the growth rates indicated above, and 1000x the amount of resources to support that larger population.

Of course, I've used quite a few assumptions (usually assuming towards a conservative estimate), that you might not feel is appropriate, so feel free to throw this out if it doesn't fit in with your argument.

Either way, I personally feel that the 1.5k years is more than enough time to produce the 1000x advantage, with or without these calculations. What calculations do you provide that indicate that that doesn't add up? (Also can someone check my numbers just for academics sake?)

[Andrew]

Without reading much, I always assumed the scattering had larger population, because under Leto II, he had stagnated known universe under his control, so that once he was gone they would "explode" and expand very far. The population that moved away expanded a lot under no tyrant. Simply look at world population of Earth under last 1500 years. The trend is very high, and assuming a large population to start with (trillion?), a simple growth rate would have huge numbers.

[Mahdi]

As for the speed of which technology increased in 1500 years - 1500 years ago stirrups were the high-tech wonder of their day....

[Ampoliros]

Also, the Empire covered more than a single galaxy.  Navigation, done by prescient navigators, would take basically the same amount of time for a known location as an unknown location give or take a few prescient visions (i.e. is there a safe path to X star, is there a habitable planet at X star rinse repeat)  Travel times are insignificant if not instant.  Constant conflict usually has a net increase in population over the long run.

It's also Frank's story, he can do with it what he wants, as long as he doesn't stretch credulity.

NEWSFLASH:  I said it's Frank's story.  Artistic license becomes inhibited when its not your license. (read as it's not KJA's universe, no matter how much he wants it to be or claims it to be.)

[SandChigger]

Leto's empire was multigalactic (a point The Hacks seem to acknowledge but don't understand) and contained well over a million worlds in just its core (the old Imperium). Which is why the returning Honored Matres refer to it as the "Million Planets".

As the Ixian Navigation Machines spread after Leto's death, anyone who could would no doubt have fled into the Scattering to escape the conflict and deprivations of Kralizec/the Famine Times. (Kralizec is over and done with by the time of Heretics.) If as few as a million people escaped from each of a million worlds, you'd have Andrew's trillion easy.

And don't forget that the population of the Old Empire would have been decimated by not only the emigration (of trillions?), but also by war, famine and shortages of the spice.

Kind of a non-point, really. ::)

[ErasOmnius]

I think we have all come a long way today. I want to thank Tezcatlipoca for providing some good numbers. Things that my friends from the last 30 years can look at. We have been thinking of these topics since the 1970s, and these numbers will be good to view.

Well, at least the topic of debate has changed from the 70s when I first started out, "Did George Lucas rip Star Wars off from Dune?"

So that's it for Duncan? Just a simple studly guy who had to be re-ghola'ed, just because?

What IF Brian Herbert knew that his father was getting mail asking these questions long ago? And decided to try to clarify some of the questions...

Have any of you ever had a question about the 6 that seemed strange that Frank had put it in there?

[MrFlibble]

Have any of you ever had a question about the 6 that seemed strange that Frank had put it in there?

I'm not sure I understood you question correctly, but I believe it's a normal thing for science fiction to feature strange, unusual concepts. Especially if the author is addressing some very complicated issues and problems, like Frank did.

[Dunenewt]

Okay we're getting off topic now, but I've finally had enough time to read the whole book, and I did enjoy it, although I was hoping Bronso's life during the the Dune novel would be explained a little more.

[Khan]

I never quite understood why duncan kept coming back either, especially as there is a passage which points out that he is quite feeble compared to most people who have grown stronger since he was originally alive.

[Dunenewt]

Wasn't it something about his pure and unquestioning loyalty to the Atreides?

[SandChigger]

...I've finally had enough time to read the whole book, and I did enjoy it...

Hopeless. Utterly and completely. ;)

How did you like Rheinvar the Magnificent and La Circle des Shards Facedancer circus? :D

Or how about Strokiya the Bene Gesserit "guilt-caster"? ("Oh, come on Joe, one more time! You feel so baaaad later!") Were you impressed by the psychic tornadoes plaguing Wallach IX? ;D

Oh, you know, you guys really need a ROTFL emoticon over here. :)

[ErasOmnius]

I hated the Jongleur Performing Group. Terrible. I am not sure what Kevin was trying to do.

I can live with the tornadoes, and the psychic guilt.

Jessica murdering the townspeople of Caladan. I like that! She is part Harkonnen, after all.

I thought the part after Muad'Dib's death was good literature.

Sandchigger, was there any part you liked? Except for the 2 words, "The End"?