President Obama

[Dunenewt]

He's always seemed more style than substance to me.

[Khan]

I don't think Brits care because that special relationship has never meant that much to us. We only keep it up because the French are worse.

[Dunenewt]

Haha now that is a very good point!

[chatfsh]

Ah well, in that case I don

[Dunenewt]

Glorious is not the adjective I'd use...but I do see it has a 'special relationship' and it has been for many years, although both countries are losing their share of global influence.

[chatfsh]

He who controls the spice, controls the universe! - Baron Vladimir Harkonnen

At the moment, the U.S., and to a lesser extent GB, still control the spice.

[Dunenewt]

That all depends on what you think the spice is.  When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, he envisaged spice as being Dune's equivalent to oil, in which case, I am inclined to disagree.  I'm not saying the US isn't the world's strongest power, but its power is declining within the world.

[chatfsh]

Was it really about who controlled the physical spice or rather about who controlled the economics of spice?  The U.S currently dictates the economy to rest of the world.  The world takes our marching orders.  It may not be that way for much longer, but it is for the present.

[Dunenewt]

Umm, it isn't that powerful actually.  It can guide the course of the world's economy, but it cannot dictate it.  China, Japan, India, and the EU are all powerful players in global economics too, but I think that is a subject for another thread.

[Dante]

It was about who controlled the physical spice. Paul brokered the surrender of an Emperor and the complete acquiescence of the Guild by threatening to destroy the spice and positioning forces that were capable of doing so.

Badda boom.

[SandChigger]

Wow ... actually discussing Dune here. Imagine. :P

[Edric O]

As an American, I felt rather embarrassed about the way Obama treated Brown.

You don't seem to understand. The British, despite all their protests to the contrary, are a lot like the French - they like to pretend that they still matter on the world stage, when in reality they've been mostly irrelevant since the 1960s. For all intents and purposes, as far as international relations are concerned, the UK is an appendage of the US. When was the last time a British government dissented from the American line? 1956?

The United States can take Britain's support for granted without offering anything in return.

[Dunenewt]

As much as it pains me to admit it, that is pretty much true, although I would say it is since the late 80s/early 90s.

[chatfsh]

Thanks for pointing that out , Edric.  Indeed, Great Britain is the appendage coasting along on America

[Dunenewt]

I must point out though, that it is the United Kingdom, not Great Britain, for we did not lose Ulster as we started to drift across the pond.

However, most Americans I've met and spoke to, do see it as a special relationship, and have more respect for the UK than any other foreign country.

[Dante]

Was anyone ever actually under the impression that the UK was an equal partner? That's a political mask used to pacify the diehard imperialists. Always has been. If you're just realising that now, welcome to the present.

[Dunenewt]

I would say the UK was a 'proportionate' partner.

[Dragoon Knight]

A lot of people are deluding themselves if they think that the UK is the lapdog of the US.  Sure, it might never happen, but if the UK disagreed with a major decision that the US made (declaring war on [insert random eastern country here])... what would happen?

The UK still holds major sway in Europe, whether people are willing to recognise it or not.  We're not the all-powerful empire we used to be, but we're far from being the ineffectual whipping boy that some people think we are.  Woe betide the USA should they get our backs up, because the UK may be willing to sit in second place when it comes to running the "free world", but we will not be ignored / stepped on.

[Wolf]

Having lived in Britain, I'm somewhat biased, but I have a tremendous amount of respect and affection for the UK.

However, regarding this "world power," "declining fortunes" in the world business, I'm afraid I need to attempt to restructure the debate.

First, let me propose an interesting thought experiment. Sure, the direct share of "power" (wealth, miliaty capability, but in the US' case, we're not even losing much ground in the latter) that the US and UK control is declining with respect to the rest of the world. But, at the same time, from the point of view of almost every country in the world--save perhaps China, who I argue breaks even--everyone's share of power is declining, and I don't think most people in most countries admit or acknowledge this.

This is the result of a variety of factors. The first is that, real "wealth" isn't being generated by nation-states anymore, it's being generated by multinational corporations. Most of whom, I will point out, are owned and operated by Westerners, regardless of where they build their factories. Countries have "power" based on how many corporations they have a piece of and on how big the pieces are. When Belgium buys Anheuser-Busch, Belgium's stock goes up, but the US doesn't mind getting billions of dollars in the exchange. In any case, the wealth, or, the "power," generated by corporations is pretty diffused. IBM has factories in mainland China and Japan, research labs in Switzerland and Norway, and administrative complexes in the State of New York (it also has labs and factories in the US, too, but I'll ignore them for the benefit of my example).

This fact leads to the second important piece: individual nations are giving up bits of sovereignty and control to become part of a much larger and more powerful regional blocs. If the real "power," most often in the form of wealth, is diffused everywhere, then it helps to modify laws and borders to more accurately match the reality of the diffusion. Suffice it to say that the European Union is currently the world's most powerful single entity, if one goes by GDP alone. If one goes by GDP and military capabilities, the United States just barely wins out. The reason we think of the US as "declining" is because the United States no longer tries to add on to itself, nor does it try to engage itself in larger, multinational alliances as it did in the past (NATO, etc.). We think of the US as declining because we still evaluate the United States individually against other blocs, alliances, regions, and granted, against some countries that are starting to get their business together--China and Brazil, for example. I exclude Russia and Iran, because, well, I know too much about Russia to ever concede that its society isn't collapsing, and Iran strikes me as one of those "self-destruct" cases. Eventually, the US will figure this out and probably run over to the EU, or create some Pan-American alliance that is more or less the EU-in-America, say, in 50+ years. For now, though, we're on our own.

[chatfsh]

An equal partner? Oh no, certainly not.  It was always apparent who the dominant partner was, the one who had the final say, all of the control and power in the partnership.  Despite this,  I think that some of us gave the UK more credit than it deserved which was why some of us were a little unsettled by Obama

[Dunenewt]

It is suffice to say that the UK is still one of the most important states in the world though.

[Wolf]

It's one of about 30 states that have stable, effective governments, relatively free elections and press, where people can move and own property freely, to say nothing of a fair and institutionalized system of crime and punishment, yeah, the UK is one of the few countries that people actually would want to live in.

[Edric O]

I don't think anyone ever questioned that the UK is one of the better countries of the world in terms of living standards (as are all its neighbors in Western and Northern Europe).

And it's also true that the British government has more international power than most governments. But I wasn't comparing the UK to the world average, I was comparing it to the much higher standards of countries who lay claim to great power status.

[Andrew]

Harper thinks that Obamas policies are stupid.

PM rips into Liberals behind closed doors

He twice pointed disdainfully to tax hikes U.S. President Barack Obama introduced for the highest tax brackets.

[Dante]

Because taxing the rich is such a bad idea.