u gotta see this

[piterdevries]

my dad got me to a new religion (Church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo) last year.. at first everything was okay, things are in order, done properly and the people there are nice...

then later on, some of their teachings are, uh, unacceptable? like:

1.) using the Biblical characters Annanias and Sapphira as examples, they taught the members that those who would not follow the instructions of the minister will be put in a curse by God... Like the elections here in the Philippines, the members must vote only for the candidates whom the head minister chose... those who wouldn't follow will have a curse or whatever that is...

2.) only those who are members of that church will be saved...

3.) those who are not will be burned in Hell..

4.) the church was founded in world war I

5.) so, the question: if that church is the only way to salvation, and it was founded in world war I, what happened to the souls of those who died BEFORE WORLD WAR I? especially the victims of the Holocaust...

some religion eh?  ??? ??? ???

[Caid Ivik]

it reminds me of a muslim sect Khawarij: prophet as the measure of truth, damnation of all others, founded during a war, forbidding of human judgements...most of them had even commanded the believers to kill other muslims on sight

[Andrew]

People use religion as a way to create/maintain power(control) and wealth. That's the way it is with most religions.

It's funny there are so many religions and each one claims to be the only "true" religion that will lead to salvation. With so many how can someone believe in just one? What if it is the wrong one?

Believe in whatever makes you happy.

the members must vote only for the candidates whom the head minister chose... those who wouldn't follow will have a curse or whatever that is...

Religion used as a form of group to exert the power of the person at the top. Reminds me of polygamists in Canada and the US where they have a Prophet who controls almost everyone. The Prophet was recently arrested for child molestation.

2.) only those who are members of that church will be saved...

Control through fear. Sign up or not be saved.

3.) those who are not will be burned in Hell..

The reason to sign up, because if you don't bad things will happen to you...

[Dante]

5.) so, the question: if that church is the only way to salvation, and it was founded in world war I, what happened to the souls of those who died BEFORE WORLD WAR I? especially the victims of the Holocaust...

The holocaust, without further clarification, is generally taken to mean the mass murders committed by the nazi party in world war II. That is, it happened after world war I.

Though I'm reasonably sure that most of those who died in the holocaust wouldn't have been saved by this particular church anyway. Gypsies, communists, jews, homosexuals, members of various resistances...

[piterdevries]

The holocaust, without further clarification, is generally taken to mean the mass murders committed by the nazi party in world war II. That is, it happened after world war I.

Though I'm reasonably sure that most of those who died in the holocaust wouldn't have been saved by this particular church anyway. Gypsies, communists, jews, homosexuals, members of various resistances...

ah...$orri, thought it happnd in wwI... well anyway the people in that religion is unable to answer #5

[Caid Ivik]

if they were exact, they would teach those souls would be damned, you can only see how sincere are their arguments...

[piterdevries]

4got to mention:

5.) members are n0t allowed to date nor marry non-members...faiure to abide would mean having u in the lake of fire...

6.) my frend started a group in frendster for the sons and daughters of ministers... guess what, the brass managed to open the account of my frend and thwart his plans....ohhh dude, a harmless group thwarted...

7.) in judgment day, earth will go kabooooooommm like peter petrelli...

[The_Sadukar]

ah...$orri, thought it happnd in wwI... well anyway the people in that religion is unable to answer #5

Or more likely unwilling. People tend to unwilling to be consistent with eternal damnation when it comes to genocides or close relatives.

7.) in judgment day, earth will go kabooooooommm like peter petrelli...

That sounds just like regular monotheism

[Warskum]

Here is a word of advise from my own experience to everyone...

Not so long ago God came into my life and changed it entirely. Before this happening I thought I was a Christian, but I realized I wasn't and thank God now I am.

I didn't go looking for different churches or anything like that, nor did I study all kinds of religions and made a pick based on some criteria.

All one has to do, is ask, and he/she shall receive, as the Bible says.

So if anyone wants to find the one and true religion, all he/she has to do is pray and ask God to show you the way, His way and believe that He will answer.

I can tell you what the way is, but it will only start some arguments which will lead nowhere. Instead I invite you to pray and see for yourself. Pray to the Most High God, to The Almighty and ask Him to show you the way and He will.

How?

Well, God ways are very interesting, in my case, after my prayers,  series of ''random'' events caused multiple encounters with Gods people and slowly God revealed His way to me through these people.

But God works differently with each individual, so after praying, keep your eyes open and pay great attention in your life, because God will bring his message subtly and you might not quite realize that He is showing you the way if you don't pay attention.

And a general note...test everything ministers say through the Bible when being encountered.

Example:

Bible says God gave man free will => man can decide on who to vote and thus the minister is not in line with the Bible and is on the wrong road.

[nemafakei]

One problem with the basic "Believe and be saved" formula is recursion. That is, precisely what do you have to believe? Certainly most groups who are into that think you need to just mentally state you think it's likely that there is a god. Do you need to believe that the only way to be saved is through belief? I've heard this given as a requirement, on the grounds that you need to do it humbly. But then, do you also need to believe that you need to believe that the only way to be saved is through belief? Presumably so. Must you also believe that the former is necessary? And so on.

... except no-one thinks on those terms.

[Warskum]

One problem with the basic "Believe and be saved" formula is recursion. That is, precisely what do you have to believe? Certainly most groups who are into that think you need to just mentally state you think it's likely that there is a god. Do you need to believe that the only way to be saved is through belief? I've heard this given as a requirement, on the grounds that you need to do it humbly. But then, do you also need to believe that you need to believe that the only way to be saved is through belief? Presumably so. Must you also believe that the former is necessary? And so on.

... except no-one thinks on those terms.

I see your point, but there is no need to make it that complicated.

Let me use an example to illustrate something:

Imagin you have big debts and you hear that person X has announced that he will pay off any debts anyone has.

IF you believe, you will look for person X, you will go to him and you will ask him to pay off your debts. Person X will pay off your debts and tell you: Dont make any debts anymore and he will also provide you with all the info needed to manage your life without making any debts.

That is a very simplified example on how salvation works.

The bold parts in my example shows actions one has to take, ONLY when taking actions one proves to believe.

Now imagin the same example, but now imagin someone who has debt and he says: I believe person X exists and I believe he will pay off my debts. But this person does not take any action, instead continues with his life the way he lived.

Does this person really believe? If yes, then why doesnt he go to person X?

Clearly this person only claims that he believes, but he doesnt.

Faith is not a mentally statement, it consist of actions. Salvation is not a one moment thing, it is something that one has to work for their entire life. Its a life time effort, because the Bible mentions people who accept God and then turn away and Bible clearly states that these people will be in worse state then before and thus will not be saved.

So: if you believe, you will take steps and ask Jesus to wash your sins with his blood and then you will ask Him to help you keep His commandements (man cannot keep these, however Bible says that with God's help, we can). Then you must live your life keeping the commandments. Of course one can make mistakes and God will forgive, but one must repent to receive forgiveness. And repent includes not making that mistake/sin again.

[Tatar Khan]

Does this person really believe? If yes, then why doesnt he go to person X?

Clearly this person only claims that he believes, but he doesnt.

This part interferes with the idea of some people who believe in God but believe that God doesn't interfere in the affairs of men. So in this case salvation lies in doing good things and helping other.

[Khan]

It doesn't entirely jar with that idea. Since it is only a metaphor it works that going to the person would be accepting the teachings of Jesus, and therefore helping other people.

[Warskum]

This part interferes with the idea of some people who believe in God but believe that God doesn't interfere in the affairs of men. So in this case salvation lies in doing good things and helping other.

First you have to believe in God to start the process of salvation, if you don't, you will not be saved even if you help the entire world, that would equal someone who does help people, but still keeps his sins (sins can only be washed away by Jesus' blood) and sin = death.

God does interfere with affairs of man, in my short time as a Christian I have seen proofs of this.

Salvation is keeping the ten commandments, which will automaticaly lead you to help others and do good things.

Jesus summarizes the 10 commandments in these 2:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

And I want to mention one more thing, man cannot keep the commandments, if you seek to be justified by keeping them, you will fail. When you accept Jesus in your life and ask him to help you, your own hart will judge your every action and you will have the desire to keep the commandments , not because you have to, but because you want to for Jesus sake...its something you have to feel, kind of hard to explain :)

[Da_Ze_Ir]

First you have to believe in God to start the process of salvation, if you don't, you will not be saved even if you help the entire world, that would equal someone who does help people, but still keeps his sins (sins can only be washed away by Jesus' blood) and sin = death.

I don't think that having a particular religion, other than "the one" denies salvation. Then I cannot believe that "believe in God to start the process of salvation, if you don't, you will not be saved even if you help the entire world". In the end you believe in and love God by loving that which is good. In any case, symply believing in God and trying to love him is ludicrous if you don't believe He stands for that which you love about existence.

Take a look at the "Is God evil?" thread, I started it when I was quite bitter. It is true that most often thinking "God is dead" or "there is no God" or some other such leads a man to chaotic morals, because God stands for existence, and if existence is all ****** up then all the morals might destabilize, you might believe in nothing at all and then you would lose toutch with good.

Actually I find your statements interesting in this thread and agree with most of them, but since it isn't my thread I will limit to this post.

God does interfere with affairs of man, in my short time as a Christian I have seen proofs of this.

Yes, I too have had several events or factors in my life which seem to have a "greater purpose", they fit with my developement as a person, otherwise it would have been nearly impossible for them to unfold the way they did.

And I want to mention one more thing, man cannot keep the commandments, if you seek to be justified by keeping them, you will fail. When you accept Jesus in your life and ask him to help you, your own hart will judge your every action and you will have the desire to keep the commandments , not because you have to, but because you want to for Jesus sake...its something you have to feel, kind of hard to explain :)

I agree, keeping the commandments because you just want to is hard when there is no meaning behind your reasoning. It is the same with anything you do in life, actually. One of the most important things I've learned in life: meaning is important, obsession with form hurts you.

[piterdevries]

they even say that relatives who won't become a member of that religion will not be saved, or even people who are good guys, those who wouldn't even harm a fly, will burn in hell if not a member

[The_Sadukar]

they even say that relatives who won't become a member of that religion will not be saved, or even people who are good guys, those who wouldn't even harm a fly, will burn in hell if not a member

Well, that is pretty standard Christianity

[Andrew]

A bit on topic with the hypocrisy of religion.

Jehovah's Witness mother dies after refusing blood transfusion after giving birth to twins

She died for her religion. Now her twin children will not have a mother.

The best part of that article is when a family friend says

"We can't believe she died after childbirth in this day and age, with all the technology there is.

It's called a blood transfusion and she refused it. So STFU and don't blame the health industry, but blame your religion.

But at least the mother will go to their heaven right? Probably not possible to collect any insurance money either so less money from the children and one less income earning parent. Are the children better off without a mother? Or would a mother who sinned be too much for the family to handle. It's not like Jesus taught about forgiveness or anything. Couldn't she have just repented her sins afterwards and everything would be OK?

There has been this argument in Canada for years when a child whose parents are Jehovah refused to give her a blood transfusion because of their religion (she would die without it). The government stepped in and forced the child to have the transfusion. Was the government correct to step in and force the child to have a blood transfusion? Is it fair that the parents can choose whether to let their daughter die because of religious beliefs? Should the child be able to choose whether to refuse the blood transfusion? Is she mature enough to believe in the religion because she believes in it or because her parents/friends/peers believe in it so she goes along with what they tell her. Just like Santa Clause comes around every year or whatever fairy tale kids get told.

[chatfsh]

Andrew-

I must say that as an ex-JW (about 7yrs now), whenever such cases came up where JW parents refused to let their children receive blood transfusions, I always secretly hoped that the government would step in and force it on the child.  I felt that way because in my opinion the biblical support for this JW doctrine was misapplied.  It was based upon a scripture at Acts 15:29 that states:  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood and from things strangled, and from fornication, from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I always interpreted that to mean don

[Da_Ze_Ir]

Andrew-

I must say that as an ex-JW (about 7yrs now), whenever such cases came up where JW parents refused to let their children receive blood transfusions, I always secretly hoped that the government would step in and force it on the child.  I felt that way because in my opinion the biblical support for this JW doctrine was misapplied.  It was based upon a scripture at Acts 15:29 that states:  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood and from things strangled, and from fornication, from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I don't understand: if some sects are so twisted, how do people end up in them. I can understand that only their evil leaders find some meaning in them, as in profiting. If you want another religion, it would be most likely that one of the other major religions could satisfy your views. Yet still, even though there are interesting points about the other major religions, I would not just choose to convert out of respect for my own (aside of that, I do not deny that it would morally hurt my family). In the end, there is SO much one does not know about his own, so much more he could appreciate, about the meanings of the Universe, why convert?

I always interpreted that to mean don

[nemafakei]

I'm fairly sure Acts 15.29 refers to blood used in religious ceremony, such as in particualr Jewish and pagan sacrifices, and in particulat in the Mithraic cults, which early Christianity was sometimes associated with. Do Jehovah's Witnesses take communion?

[chatfsh]

If by communion you are referring to the Christian practice wherein bread and wine are consecrated and consumed in remembrance of Jesus

[Da_Ze_Ir]

From what you are saying, Hwi Noree, you DO realise that they are SO not being realistic. It just doesn't make sense.

[chatfsh]

Yeah

[Da_Ze_Ir]

But just out of curiosity was it something specific that I mentioned that doesn