Israel Issues

[Mihail]

What Israel is doing, IMO, barbaric. The majority of Lebanon does not support Hezbollah, just as the majority of Americans don't support rascism or the majority of Germans Nazism. So why go and invade a whole country just to get back at one terrorist group?! For Chrissake, you have the Mossad! Arguably the most well-equipped intelligence agency in the world! Why can't you send in the Mossad, instead of a sovereign nation that does not officially support Hezbollah in any way? Well, I take that back. Hezbollah has 10 seats in Parliament. Out of 109. A lot, huh?  ::)

This is bullshit. Hezbollah kidnaps 2 Israeli soldiers. Israel invades Lebanon, starts bombing runs. Israel kills hundreds of laborers trying to support their family, women, and children. Lebanese soldiers are also among the dead. Israel destroys roads so that fleeing civilians can't get away. GO ISRAEL! Lebanese Army doesn't even resist. Israel keeps killing mostly civilians. GO ISRAEL! Israel destroys a lorry carrying civilian goods(Medicine, food, etc.), claiming it was bringing rockets to Hezbollah. That's right, shoot rockets at any and all trucks in Lebanon, since they're carrying weapons for Hezbollah, right? Ask questions later, or better yet, don't ask them at all. Go Israel!

::)

And these people support them.

http://media.putfile.com/On-The-Streets-Of-America-3

[Purge]

They aren't invading *all Lebanon*, they are invading the Hezbollah controlled southern Lebanon, because that is *exactly* where the attacks are coming from.  That is why Israel has specifically advised citizens of southern Lebanon to evacuate.  In fact, they went as far as to say aid, medicine, and food will opened for the Lebanese as early as today or tomorrow.

And they aren't going in there to *get back* at them, they are going in there to take care of the root of the problem of them being attacked unprovoked.  If someone is consatntly threatening and attacking you illegally from within the border of another country it would be foolish not to root that problem out, not only for your benefit, but for the benefit of all that are afflicted by them.

They killed 8 Israelis and kidnapped two, and have since told Israel that to get them back they must release members of their terrorist group that have been arrested.  This is only their most recent offense in a long list of them.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

[nemafakei]

"They aren't invading *all Lebanon*, they are invading the Hezbollah controlled southern Lebanon,"

What planet are you on? Israel has attacked Beirut. Israel has attacked Tripoli. Nowhere is Lebanon is safe from attack.

As to Lebanon and Hezbollah, if the Lebanese government tried to take on Hezbollah, Lebanon would be destroyed. It's like demanding a prisoner overpower his captor. Has Israel offered to fund Lebanon in removing Hezbollah? Maybe redirect some of its funding from the US?

There are three losers in this battle, the Lebanese, the Palaestinians and the Israelis. The three winners will be Kadima, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

[Purge]

Correction, they hit the Hezbollah strong-hold of southern Beiruit, you know, where Hezbollah's headquarters are?  Even Lebanon's officials have said there were no casualties on these attacks.  Outside of that it's been and is going to be a full on attack on the Hezbollah strongholds to the south, which have remained there for over 20 years.  Their strikes have been specifically made on Hezbollah strongholds and military bases.

This belief that Lebanon would be destroyed if it went after Hezbollah is ridiculous.  If it went after Hezbollah it would *finally* being doing what the UN and US have pleaded with them to do for years.  The problem isn't that they wouldn't get any help, it's that the people they'd get help from would upset their Arab ties, who coincidentally are also some of the same countries responsible for Hezbollah's existence. 

Israel could care less about destroying Lebanon, their beef with Lebanon is the Palestinian and Hezbollah terrorist bases they've allowed to flourish in Beiruit and southern Lebanon. However, even despite that they've warned the government and people to get out of harms way, and they've said they will set up food, medicine, and other stuff for Lebanese civillians, things you would NEVER see from Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, etc.  They've made it clear their problem is specifically with those who arrogantly snuck into Israel, killed eight, and kidnapped two and then demanded the release of large amounts of their jailed terrorists in exchange.

As long as these countries continue to think with their Arab membership instead of the safety of their people they will continue to bring harm to them.  It doesn't matter how much they try to blame Israel, or America, or any other scapegoat they can use.  They are literally getting f-ed in the A by their position on Hezbollah.  They don't want Hezbollah attacked because Hezbollah is in Lebanon, yet they refuse to rid themselves of Hezbollah.

But instead of acknowledging that people would rather shift the blame to Evil Israel, when anyone objectively looking at the facts can plain as day see that Lebanon is allowing it's citizens to pay for it's inactivity in dealing with a problem it's had for more than two decades.

[Dante]

So the people who actually bought and owned land are in the wrong, while the people who never owned it and were just living off Arab and Ottoman owners who specifically sold it, because the people they allowed to live on the land destroyed it without replenishing it and it was now worthless aren'?

That makes tons of sense.   ::)

As far as I'm concerned, both parties are in the wrong here. Hamaz & co for attacking Israel, and Israel for retaliating in the manner which it did. Who actually owns the land is irrelevent to me, because both sides make good claims and both sides make bad claims and both sides are prepared to shed blood for their petty claims. Which makes them equal, in my eyes. And the funny thing is that these two opposing factions that look so similar to me are both deeply insulted at the suggestion that they are anything alike.

If Israel didn't retaliate when they are attacked they would no longer exist. It is completely acceptable for them to protect themselves and their state when provoked.

Protection ≠ invasion.

No, not "another country", *the* country that facilitated the attacks. Israel has been telling Lebanon to reel in Hezbollah for years.  Lebanon has instead allowed them to operate in the south right on the borders of Israel despite numerous requests on Israel's part to reign them in.  Instead they've continually allowed them to use it as a strategic base to attack and carry out plots against Israel. If Israel just allowed them to continue doing it without repercussion there would be no Israel. Lebanon put their citizens in the line of fire.

Lebanon has already claimed that it has no control over Hezbollah. If Israel wanted to be taken seriously, it would find incontrovertable proof that Lebanon is intimately connected with the attacks by Hezbollah and display it to the international community. This would be enough to secure support of any Israeli retaliation, I suspect.

Also, even if Lebanon did put its civilians 'in the line of fire,' one would think that Israel would make an effort to avoid them. "Oh it can't be helped that people die, they shouldn't have been in our way to begin with" is not a good enough excuse. Especially as countries from all over the world are currently engaging in efforts to evacuate their civilians from Lebanon. Did Canada deliberately place its citizens in a dangerous position? Did Britain, France?

You refer again to the whole 'If Israel didn't retaliate then there would be no Israel' statement. Has it not occured to you that long-term peace (and thus no more danger) could just be achieved by moving out and dissolving the state?

I'm sorry your "killing is killing" logic doesn't work, and isn't logical whatsoever. Common sense says that if you are attacked you will become extinct if you don't then protect yourself from future attacks. Especially when the leaders of the nations funding these terrorist organizations and the organizations themselves have made clear their goal to kill every Jew in existance.

Killing is killing. Protecting oneself does not necessitate killing other people, except in dire circumstances. The resources of an entire country should be able to avoid these circumstances. Instead, Israel seems to actually go looking for excuses to fight people.

Besides which, if Israel really wanted to get rid of a country with a serious anti-semitism problem then they should target Iran. Why not Iran? Because Iran is strong. Lebanon has just recovered from a decade-long civil war, and is thus an easy target. Way to go, Israel. Bully the weaker fish.

They *are* aiming at the terrorist organizations themselves.  What part of "Lebanon has willingly housed and provided regions of their land - especially the south - to Hezbollah for years" do you not get?

The bit where I'm expected to just believe you.

You need to understand that regardless of what you think, you couldn't be more wrong in this situation.

HA! If only I could use that argument... And have it actually work, that is. 

You are so worried about "not being part of either side of the situation" that you are deluding yourself into thinking both sides are doing the same thing and trying to base it on moral arguments. No, there is no moral argument for "kill all Jews and take their land".  Sorry. If you were really worried about being objective you'd be able to accept that.

Not objective, subjective. Important difference. And while there is no moral justification for "kill all Jews and take their land," or none that I will listen to at any rate, there is a moral justifcation for "take back what's ours." Besides which, Israel is equally guilty of murder, just not with racial bias.

As for Israel being a failed experiment, or being placed there by the British Empire, again, they bought land from the Arabs and Ottomans that surrounded them. I've never heard of wolves selling land to or living quite peacefully with their prey. The fact is, this conflict didn't start until after Israel made the land the Arabs didn't want, and sold to them for way more than it was ever worth, habitable and beautiful again for the first time in hundreds if not 1,000+ years.

That isn't bloody habitable and beautiful, it's a bleak, sandy, ugly land. With occasional touches of a bleak beauty.

Furthermore, considering Israel has thwarted every attempt of invasion and take over attempted on them, I'd hardly call them sheep.

Neither would I. But my other metaphor was 'cat among dogs,' and I rather like cats so decided not to involve them.

Considering, outside of the United States, Israel is the largest home of Israelites/Jews in the world, I'd say it's been quite sucessful. Every country has to have the ability to defend themselves. Unfortunately the surrounding Muslim nations want Israel as their own, so Israel has had to do more than their fair share of defending.

Incorrect. Israel was created to be a Jewish state, a place where a persecuted people could go to feel safe within its borders. A place of their own, where they would not be shunted aside by others. The country is, however, under constant attack and will probably be for the forseeable future. The experiment has failed. End it before more people die.

Israel defends itself due to arrogance. If it were a little more realistic it would see that its long-term prospects are very poor unless it either abandons this militaristic attitude or gets the heck out of the middle east. It has the advantage now, but that may not last for long.

The fact is, this is important land to them. It has been for 3,500-4,000 years. Long before Muslims knew what a Jew was, let alone wanted to wipe them out, let alone before there were even Muslims to claim the land. It must always be kept in mind that the Jews bought this land from much of the same group of people that now declares war on them for it. It was crap land then, it's beautiful now. It must also always be kept in mind that, despite not actually owning the land, the Palestinians WERE going to be given almost half of the entire land before they fought on the side of the invading Muslim armies in an attempt to secure more than what was allotted to them.

Your argument seems to be that it's more Israel's fault because they are the State, but also that it's Israel's fault for settling between tons of enemies. Fact is, these Palestinians and surrounding countries made themselves Israel's enemies after the fact (when they all invaded), when they tried to invade the land and take it *all* instead of what was allotted to them.  And when it was all done they had lost even more based on their greed.

Your point being? If you're trying to justify Israel's actions, you've failed. I've already said that I don't care for the boring, repetative justifications. They all sound the same and they're all just half-truths thrown out by both sides in order to cover their true intentions.

It's not Israel's fault for settling in the wrong place, it's Israel's fault for having a disastrous foreign policy that made enemies of their neighbours. And also it's the fault of the surrounding states for bullying Israel to begin with. Frankly, it's everyone's fault and the whole affair should be treated as a mistake and carefully cleaned up.

Israel is reactive.  Responsive.  When they are attacked they will retaliate.  There is a difference between baselessly going on the attack on someone elses' State (as countries constantly do with Israel) and retaliating to said attacks for the safety of your State.  Hezbollah came into Israel illegally, killed 8 Israelis, and kidnapped two.  That was an attack by a foreign terrorist group.  They have since retaliated against Hezbollah, and since Lebanon willingly houses them they have put their citizens in harm's way when they otherwise wouldn't be.

Coincidentally, that logic is also used by terrorists. I think it was bin Laden who said something like "The actions of the American government put its citizens in danger when they would not otherwise have been." This used as a justification for killing a few thousand people in New York, among other places. How very interesting.

Here's a parallel. Al-Qaeda attacks US civilians. United States claims that Taliban government in Afghanistan is hiding and aiding Al-Qaeda. Taliban says that this is correct. United States - with international backing and aid - invades Afghanistan.

Hezbollah attacks Israeli civilians. Israel claims that Lebanon is hiding and aiding Hezbollah. Lebanon denies this. Israel invades anyway, regardless of international opinion.

Israel is within its rights to defend itself, this I do not question. What I question is its choice of target and method of retaliation.

It just pains me that all this information is out there, and yet people still want to try to describe this as a symmetric conflict between two sides with equal motivation.  It just isn't the case, guys.  There is a right and wrong, and when a State or country is being attacked they are going to and have every right to protect themselves and retaliate against people who have no regard for their people, and willingly use them as shields and human explosives against Jews.

There is no right and wrong. There never is. And whether there is equal motivation is unimportant. Violence begets violence, and Israel lost whatever moral high ground it had when it sunk to the level of those attacking it. This conflict has been going on for so long, one wonders why anyone bothers with it anymore.

They killed 8 Israelis and kidnapped two, and have since told Israel that to get them back they must release members of their terrorist group that have been arrested. This is only their most recent offense in a long list of them.

At the last count, the number of Lebanese dead was 330. Statistics work both ways you know.

As long as these countries continue to think with their Arab membership instead of the safety of their people they will continue to bring harm to them.  It doesn't matter how much they try to blame Israel, or America, or any other scapegoat they can use.  They are literally getting f-ed in the A by their position on Hezbollah.  They don't want Hezbollah attacked because Hezbollah is in Lebanon, yet they refuse to rid themselves of Hezbollah.

But instead of acknowledging that people would rather shift the blame to Evil Israel, when anyone objectively looking at the facts can plain as day see that Lebanon is allowing it's citizens to pay for it's inactivity in dealing with a problem it's had for more than two decades.

As Nema stated, Lebanon cannot rid itself of Hezbollah. Not only because this might bring repercussions from other states but because the government is effectively powerless. The Lebanese government is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand there is Hezbollah, with effective free run because the government doesn't have the ability to constrain them, and on the other is an angry and violent Israel. If the government were to actively support and promote Hezbollah, it would win accolades with some other states *cough*Iran*cough* but leave itself open to Israeli retaliation, effectively jeopardising the entire country's (and government's) existance. If the government were to attempt to remove Hezbollah then these other states would become more unfriendly but, more importantly, the government would have an enemy in a seriously entrenched and powerful organisation that certainly has the ability to topple them. Once again, the existance of the country of Lebanon is under threat. Very much a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

[VigilVirus]

Israel could care less about destroying Lebanon...

That's exactly the issue. Israeli government and when it comes down to it, Israeli people have never cared about anyone but themselves. Israeli life is priceless to them, but the life of an arab neighbor isn't worth shit. The casualties may be "regrettable side effects" at the worst to them. Going back to quondam's statements, which I found to be quite to the point, yet overlooked due to Purge's ignorance or willful desire to ignore. All that Israel understands as a solution to the problem is force, eye for an eye, but magnified tenfold. What they don't understand that Hezbollah (as well as Syria and Iran) anticipated the aggressiveness of the Israeli reaction. Israel has killed near a thousand civilians to date, displacing near a quarter of the population. Through that, Lebanese economy and infrastructure have been crippled. A nation that could barely maintain any sort of stability within its borders before now has absolutely no such capability, leaving millions of civilians hateful of the Israelis kicking them off their land with their raids and the open arms of Hezbollah to greet that hatred.  

[nemafakei]

"Israeli people have never cared about anyone but themselves"

No call for that. The Israeli state, fair enough, but I don't think the population as a whole (insofar as they are aware of the full scale of what's being inflicted on the Palaestinian people) is entirely comfortable with the situation.

[Davidu]

@Purge: you said that a country has the right to defend itself and its citizens. That is right. That is the PURPOSE of a country/state. You said nothing about the ABILITY of a country to defend itself. Right now Israel has both the right and the ability to defend itself. Lebanon also has the right but not the ability to defend itself. But I see that does not matter. I am furious because the Israeli military does not care about accuracy. They bomb the hell out of Lebanon just to kill Hezbollah members.

I said it before and Clemenza said it as well: there is Mossad. And furthermore today in these kind of situations modern states use strike teams to take out opponents, destroy strategical targets, etc. ( like the mithical Delta Force). When all around the world efforts are being made to ensure that a full scale war will never be fought again, so they use small teams of proffesional soldiers to carry out the tasks, Israel moves in with all its forces against a country that did not even retaliate.

If I were to use your logic: Hezbollah attacks Israel. Hezbollah is in Lebanon. We attack Lebanon. - well, then any country would have the right to attack any neighboring country because there always is some organisation in the neghboring country that does some shit in the first place.

[Davidu]

I just received this link by e-mail. It is subjective, of course, but the images are more than disturbing. <|Clarification: these are mainly pictures of Lebanese victims; by "disturbing", Dawid means graphic.|>

http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/

[Shiroko]

So why go and invade a whole country just to get back at one terrorist group?! For Chrissake, you have the Mossad!

You watched too many hollywood spy movies and have zero understanding of military actions.

Your assumptions are too much disconnected from reality.

[Shiroko]

That's exactly the issue. Israeli government and when it comes down to it, Israeli people have never cared about anyone but themselves. Israeli life is priceless to them, but the life of an arab neighbor isn't worth shit. The casualties may be "regrettable side effects" at the worst to them. Going back to quondam's statements, which I found to be quite to the point, yet overlooked due to Purge's ignorance or willful desire to ignore. All that Israel understands as a solution to the problem is force, eye for an eye, but magnified tenfold. What they don't understand that Hezbollah (as well as Syria and Iran) anticipated the aggressiveness of the Israeli reaction. Israel has killed near a thousand civilians to date, displacing near a quarter of the population. Through that, Lebanese economy and infrastructure have been crippled. A nation that could barely maintain any sort of stability within its borders before now has absolutely no such capability, leaving millions of civilians hateful of the Israelis kicking them off their land with their raids and the open arms of Hezbollah to greet that hatred. 

Another load of crap, the death count isn't near a thousand. Israelis are not cold-hearted bastards as you seem to think of them (Well, some of them are, but that's nothing special...).

And Hizbullah seem to have expected that Israel will be afraid to respond because of prices it will need to pay, and hoped that it will be a symbolic response like in the last kidnapping which after they could simply negotiate the return of kidnappeds for a high price.

[Shiroko]

I just received this link by e-mail. It is subjective, of course, but the images are more than disturbing. <|Clarification: these are mainly pictures of Lebanese victims; by "disturbing", Dawid means graphic.|>

http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/

I'd show you pics of dead dismembered israelis, but I can't find any. Could be because we respect out dead more. Not only this is subjective. But simply showing pictures as an argument is beyond subjective its distorted propganda. A picturedoesn't tell a story and it no replacement to facts.

[Shiroko]

Israel navy stopped rented Canadian ships that were taking Canadians back to Cyprus to meet the prime minister several times, each taking 2 hours.

So they think the terrorists are getting on board ships with Canadians and leaving Lebanon?

Thanks for helping our people leave, Israel.

Why don't you try and kill more of our civilians

Sadly, I bet by the end of this, a ship will end up sinking in the mediteranean sea killing civilians.

Actually Israel has coordinated all these rescue attempts with their respective countries.

I honestly also think there's no chance in hell for terrorists to be on board a canadian ship. As we all know, canadian ships are immune to terrorists boarding them.

And we all know, its Israel's tactic to kill all canadians on Lebanon in purpose...

[Shiroko]

I'd also respond to all of Edric O's and the rest extremely long posts....

But I have no will power to actually do that.

[Mihail]

You watched too many hollywood spy movies and have zero understanding of military actions.

Your assumptions are too much disconnected from reality.

Stop making assumptions. The Mossad is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world, feared mostly because it doesn't give a rat's ass about borders, red tape, and so on and so forth. That is what makes it so deadly. Continue reading.

High profile operations

Its many successes in serving Israel's security interests have earned Mossad a reputation for being extremely effective as an intelligence agency. Controversy exists over a few cases where it has employed the tactics of kidnapping and assassination.

Successful operations

    * Location and capture of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann. In 1960, Mossad discovered that Eichmann was in Argentina and through surveillance, they confirmed that he had been living there under the name of Ricardo Klement. The Israeli government approved an operation to capture Eichmann and bring him to Jerusalem for trial as a war criminal. He was captured by a team of Mossad agents on May 11, 1960, as part of a covert operation.

    * Assisting in the defection and rescuing the family of Munir Redfa, an Iraqi pilot who defected and flew his MiG 21 to Israel.

    * Provided key intelligence on the Egyptian Air Force for Operation Focus, the opening airstrike of the Six-Day War.

    * Assassination of those responsible for the Munich massacre at the 1972 Olympic Games, called "Operation Wrath of God".

    * Intelligence and operational assistance in 1973 Operation Spring of Youth.

    * Providing intelligence for Israeli military operations, thousands of miles away from Israel, for instance, for Operation Entebbe in 1976.

    * Assisting in Operation Moses, the immigration of Ethiopian Jews to Israel.

    * Providing highly sensitive information about Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor, destroyed in an Israeli airstrike in 1981.

    * Abduction of Mordechai Vanunu in Italy 1986.

    * The alleged assassination of Canadian scientist Gerald Bull, developer of the Iraqi supergun. While he was working on the Scud project, someone started "warning" him to stop working on the missiles. Over a period of a few months his apartment was broken into several times but nothing was stolen. He nevertheless continued to work on the project, and in March 1990 he was shot five times in the back of the neck while opening his door. The most common theory is that Mossad was responsible, and Mossad representatives have uncharacteristically all but claimed responsibility for his murder. Others, including Bull's son, believe that the Mossad is taking credit for an act they did not commit to scare off others who may try to help enemy regimes. The alternative theory is that Bull was killed by the CIA. Iraq and Iran are also candidates for suspicion.[1]

From Wikipedia.

Botched operations.

In July 1973, Ahmed Bouchiki, an innocent Moroccan waiter in Lillehammer, Norway, was killed while walking with his pregnant wife. He had been mistaken for Ali Hassan Salameh, one of the leaders of Black September, the Palestinian group responsible for the Munich massacre, who had been given shelter in Norway. The Mossad agents had used fake Canadian passports, which angered the Canadian government. Six Mossad agents were arrested, and the incident became known as the Lillehammer affair.

In 1981, fake British passports were discovered in a grocery bag in London, leading to a diplomatic row with Israel over Mossad involvement in an attempt to infiltrate China.

In 1997, two Mossad agents were caught in Jordan, which had signed a peace treaty with Israel, on a mission to assassinate Sheikh Khaled Mashal, a leader of Hamas, by injecting him with poison at a pro-Hamas rally in Amman. Again, they were using fake Canadian passports. This led to a diplomatic row with Canada and Jordan, and Israel was forced to provide the poison antidote and release around 70 Palestinian prisoners, in particular the Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in exchange for the Mossad agents, who would otherwise have faced the death penalty for attempted murder. In March of 2004, seven years after he was released, Yassin was killed in an Israeli helicopter airstrike.

In July 2004, New Zealand imposed diplomatic sanctions on Israel over an incident in which two Israelis, Uriel Kelman and Eli Cara, who were allegedly working for Mossad, attempted to obtain New Zealand passports fraudulently. Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom later apologized to New Zealand for their actions. New Zealand cancelled several other passports believed to have been obtained by Israeli agents. [3] Both Kelman and Cara served half of their six month sentences and upon release were deported to Israel. Two others, an Israeli, Ze'ev Barkan, and a New Zealander, David Reznick, are believed to have been the third and fourth men involved in the passport affair but managed to leave New Zealand before being traced.

[Andrew]

Canadians that made it back from lebanon were talking about the horrors of seeing dead children and guts and such everywhere.

Sounds like a lovely job the Israelis are doing.

And now that Israel has started the ground invasion I'm sure it will get better.

[VigilVirus]

Another load of crap, the death count isn't near a thousand. Israelis are not cold-hearted bastards as you seem to think of them (Well, some of them are, but that's nothing special...).

And Hizbullah seem to have expected that Israel will be afraid to respond because of prices it will need to pay, and hoped that it will be a symbolic response like in the last kidnapping which after they could simply negotiate the return of kidnappeds for a high price.

Are you kidding me? Did you not notice that first Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier and got the shit bombed out of them and only /then/ Hezbollah decided to kidnap those two soldiers? Unless they are complete morons, which I doubt they are, they anticipated a similar response to the one in Gaza. It's just pure common sense there. Naturally, they will however claim they did not anticipate such a response to make Israel look even worse to the public eye.

Furthermore, the fact that the terrorists are among a group of civilians does not give Israel the right to murder the tourists of a sovereign nation like Canada. Since when has that been a valid excuse anyway? As for my earlier comment about Israelis caring only about themselves, I suppose I should limit that to the overwhelming majority of Israeli citizens that support the decimation of Lebanon. 

Louise Arbour, United Nations high commissioner for human rights, expressed "grave concern over the continued killing and maiming of civilians in Lebanon, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory." She suggested that the actions of Israel and Hezbollah may constitute war crimes. Arbour called for Israel to obey a "principle of proportionality" and said, "indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians

[nemafakei]

"does not give Israel the right to murder the tourists of a sovereign nation like Canada."

To be honest, I don't see what nationality has to do with it at all. Either you're an active participant in the attacks on Israel, or you're an innocent. It's never actually stated, but it's assumed by foreign media that it's one thing to kill a Lebanese but quite another to kill a foreigner, which implies that the Lebanese people somehow deserve it. The BBC has tried to gloss over it by making a point of interviewing Arab Brits who've escaped, which strikes me as shouting 'We're not racists!', but it's not racism that's the issue as much as prejudice by nationality. (Sorry, petty rant.)

[Mihail]

This picture really struck me. This man's house has just been destroyed. All of his personal belongings are most likely gone. He looks elderly, so he probably can't afford insurance, or if he has insurance, it will not be able to pay back the losses he has sustained.

My question to you, Shiroko, and Purge, is this: How the flip can you justify this? If you brush it off as an unfortunate incident that shouldn't have happened but did, then excuse me, but you flipping deserve to be launched rockets at. >:(

Edit: Stop censoring my posts, Fed2k. Normally I wouldn't protest, but I want to make it known that I'm flipping disgusted with this and "dash" just won't dashing convey the point. >:(

<|After your edit, I noticed that you'd spelt 'flip' with a k and some underscores, which got past the 'spellchecker'. I hope you don't mind me correcting you.|>

[Shiroko]

Since I've gone through it in other places I'll maqke it short.

Israel is only bombing targets that were identified as Hizbullah's. No matter if they're located next/inside civilian buildings because Hizbullah placed them there for that reason.

I feel sorry for every civilian casualty there is. But this does not mean Israel is prevented from actually fighting. Hizbullah hides in the civilians, it shoots its rockets from villages and from houses themselves. It hides it ammunition in civlian buildings. And its command bunker was placed under a civilian building in beirut.

Hizbullah also planned this operaiotn for at least several months (They claim 5 years, but that sounds too much...) long before the kidnapping next to Gaxa appeared.

The Mossad it good, but it does not mean it can wipe out an entire geurilla organization. Espiecally one that is very well kept like Hizbullah.

Also like I said before it's nice you can draw so much from one picture. This is a sad picture, and this man probably hadn't done any crime. But if that's your excuse to force Israel to sit on the international border and wait until the next time hizbullah attacks and goes back to hide among civilians than go ahead...

Saying Israel indscirmantely throws bombs at lebanon is not only distorted but also dumb. Every civilian casualty only farthers it from its goal.

It's also nice to know Clemenza that I deserve being rocketed because I only feel sorry for casualties and don't support getting killed passively instead.

But it's always easy to critisize, I'm all easr to what you think Israel should have done in response to the kidnapping? (Letting the mossad destroy Hizbullah would be fantastic, you would have to accept the fact it is not possible).

-Shiroko

[Shiroko]

My question to you, Shiroko, and Purge, is this: How the flip can you justify this? If you brush it off as an unfortunate incident that shouldn't have happened but did, then excuse me, but you flipping deserve to be launched rockets at. >:(

I cannot help thinking that if you in fact lived in Israel you would be among all these people that demand that "Lebanon should burn" and such...

[Mihail]

I cannot help thinking that if you in fact lived in Israel you would be among all these people that demand that "Lebanon should burn" and such...

Probably. But that is just human nature, illogical and irrational thinking; pure hatred and rage in response to their country being attacked and their people, violated. it is simlar all over the world. For example, I'm not, generally, friendly to Russia and Russians. Why? Because of the occupation of Latvia. I know that the poeple responsible for it are long dead and that is in the past, but I can't help it. Human nature. I'm sure those in the Netherlands feel a quiet resentment against Muslims for the killing of Theo van Gogh, even though it was extremists that were responsible for the killing. Human nature. That is why people need to think logically and rationally, and not let their feelings interfere with their rationing. Kind of like the Jedi, if you will. Or Buddhists, as a more down-to-earth example.

I'll get back to your other points later, I'm tired and busy.

[Shiroko]

I'm just saying a less sentimenal approach and more of a logical approach is usually better in life.  Sentiments should be avoided as reasons to war IMO.

But I guess people are different and it's for the best...

[chatfsh]

It

[Purge]

That is why people need to think logically and rationally, and not let their feelings interfere with their rationing. Kind of like the Jedi, if you will. Or Buddhists, as a more down-to-earth example.

I'll get back to your other points later, I'm tired and busy.

I'm glad you just came out and illustrated your irrationality.  This isn't science fiction.  Sorry you don't value Israelis, but their government does, and they will protect them by rooting out the terrorist organization making the attacks.  The civillian deaths are unfortunate, but the big cities that were hit such as Beiruit had no casualties (i.e. civillian deaths) per the word of one of the Lebanese information minister.  Israel advised civillians in the south to evacuate, a regard for the people that an evil invading force bent on destructing a whole country wouldn't extend.

But again, it's easy to get on some kind of unrealistic hippie-like pedestal and scream about peace and both sides being wrong from England, America, and elsewhere *not* Israel, and *not* constantly fending off attackers.  From an objective point of view it's simple to see that a State with a capable army is engaging a very specific target, a target which strategically caused this whole conflict to a boiling point.

If you are comfortable and happy to ignorantly believe that Israel should sit like defenseless prey or abandon their State *because* the surrounding countries can't get over their hard-on for them, I'm sorry, that's just ridiculous.

And it points to the fact that people are more worried with condemning Israel than objectively looking at the situation.

As for it being Palestinians land, you must remember that there's been thousands of years of integration of Palestinians with the Jews.  Scientific test show Palestinians and Israelis have closer DNA than Palestinians and any of the surroundign Arab/Muslim nations.

You must remember, however, that it was Palestine's greed and rejection of Palestinian *and* Israeli states - goaded by their Arab allies - that led to them losing the land they *were* to be given.  Otherwise you're looking at two relatively equal slices of land, and a protected/shared - between all - Jerusalem.  Even though they never owned it, they were to be given some anyway, and they unexplicably tried to make a powerplay and take it all.  It's a shame, but you can't go back after you've already made that mistake.  Now they've been stuck in this holding pattern with their extremist groups attacking Israelis over and over again, and the people - who don't necessarily agree with all the propaganda - are so desperate that they vote these fanatics into legitimate power.  It's a *real* shame.