the nooble atreides

[eid]

as most of you know im trying to focus on the atreides for a while, while im not going to make them my new main house,i want to know all there is to know about them..

what i wanto know is, how they are best used..

by that i mean are they used best in  escalative tactics? eg: i use kindjal to force flame/mortar/kobra?

the main problem i have is when the other houses tech first, my counter is either slow and late(geese mino sonic orni etc)

or i was supposed to have a counter-counter ready and in place before they thought of that..??

my other problem i think is : i cant win by not attacking so i try to use atr aggesively to an extent, more like an agressive defence..very similar to my ordos tier 4 army

oh by the way if ur plannin to give me any suggestions, please bare in mind im only using atreides  not sards or fremen  :]    so none of this  'elites near minos' crap

again all i want is execution and  counter/escalative assistance  ..so if u say kindjal vs dust...tell me also how/when/where its done properly    as i've notice atr seem to rely on unit formation than the other houses..anyway cheers if ya can hlp a lil

[thesnake]

  i will tell you about the strongest atr armyes i have fight against  :O and studyed  there army build.. ::)

  those are powerfull atr players  >:(  like (doompower,kor,pearl ) and few others...there arnt mutch  elite atr players left....well to get to the point eido... you are screwed without sard

  i allwayes told you man  sarducar and freemen are not spam they allwayes have been part

of the main houses infentry structur  8) ...in previous dune games you get them automaticly as a part of the house main army (sard+harck.freemen+atr)  so u see if emp made them alone it dosent mean they are not genuin....i hate to see guild tanks teleportting into the back of my base  :O now this is what you can call subhouse bullshit lets keep the fight on the sand and sard are real dune fighters and they belong to any house army combo..... 8)

long talk about sards avernus because atr without them atr are as  weak as hell  :'(  speacialy vs a harckonan rusher...why  ???  i will tell you lets say the known good atr army combo  ::)  :

_ minos rush you need the sard elites to deffend against carryalles and tanks  :P

_bick ruch needs the emperial sards because the bicks are too dam weak  :'(  so is the case for atr inf they will never stand against harck buz+inf+sard combo in any case.. :(

well the good atr players i know will make a good deffence at start.  :) pumping large numbers of an army that can fend  >:(  which is (sard emperial+inf+bicks) without sards here the harks will go into ure base in exactly 8 min lol.they only start to use minos as a canon(altelery) which means they dont make an army of them and they dont move them a lot at start and only make 2 or 3 of them and place them  in deffensive postion so the bickes can manouver around and make maximum long range casulty and cover the middle battle field (in small maps) and even promote some of them, once they get 2 or 3 minos promoted at start of the fight from killing the other army inf, now they become realy

impossible to kill monsters, speacialy with a repair car behind and few elite sard to cover (few drones are coming out olso)  at the same time when those atr players are pomping bickes+inf+emperialsard)in realy big big numbers and moving so fast to threat spice mines...

ok at this time atr will have control of the battle because its clear now the other army cant

break there line which means the atr player completed his first misson.. which is gain time

to make another base and more ref...while the other player is buzy thinking about what to do next

well i think there is not mutch anyone can do next because the minos have massed and having control on there posision and they will start the holy march into your base..voila ..poin final..

pardon my french....but they are unstopble...like doompower say (i will give you the minos wall treatment) you cant kill them unless you are atr player and you have another minos wall in front

of them...olso at this time atr will contol the air and have 10s of drones and will kill ure spice

even if u put aa on mines...so unless you have guild tanks or ixan bombes to destroy atr base

it will impossible for you to see it again i mean air or ground so relax and wait for a slow death...

..............................................................................................

i want to say sorry for emp  because i am not playing,,,well i am loyal as i allwayes been to dune

long befor empror was even made...dear players i have not left you..but the luck have left me..

my new adsl line i bought is cheated  my isp over sold there bandwhich so my connection dies

all day untill the next day dawn when it gets back to normal for few hours when everyone eals is sleeping...thats if some of you noticed haw i laged recently.. so i dont know what to do?

surly i will kick there butt and stop paying them but i am sad to go back to the painfull

56k dialup connectoin and my head is broaken from trying to fix the dsl while all the time it

was the isp fult but i didnt know....

sry if this part of the reply is off topic but i am lazy to post a new message at the discution

board... :P

[thesnake]

oh by the way if ur plannin to give me any suggestions, please bare in mind im only using atreides  not sards or fremen  :]    so none of this  'elites near minos' crap

eido this is just haw this game is playerd  so as it is in real life  accept realty or die

[eid]

i see,  well id like to point out that no house actually owned  any of the subhouses to begin with  with the exception to atreides and the fremen,and possibly the ix/smugglers to the ordos(story wise)

until dune2000 + the 1.6? patch where the  gave harkonnen the imperial sardaukar,the atreides grenade infantry, and the ordos got more speed i think(harvs etc)and stealth raiders

anyway thats not the point

the main point in question wasnt how to make sards bikes and inf and use attack move

but how to use 'atreides' more effectively 

because i already know howto make bikes inf sards frem and hit attack move and see it work with any house without any real problem 

but as u know the only reason i can hold you off with ordos and harkonnen without subhouses is because i know what main house units can do the same job even if it means a little more thinking/mm and a few more losses,

so far i could substitute geese for elites for mino carry pikups    or airmines for ordos

sure it takes a bit of time/bother to get a mine or goose  over there...but both deny the ability to land....the only problem is my style in countering i think...

for ordos i see a threat and get the counter then and there..and try to resolve it asap..(speed is my weapon there)

with atr..im stuck untill i get the counter..then set it up...etc before i die

so to that end..do i need to preemptively setup a counter before they do?  or just run with it like ordos?

that is if i go kindjal on inf cover,, i expect to see kobras/mortar/inks pretty soon if not sooner..do i tech up  to counter that before or after they adapt? 

and i know how the game is 'played' spicy...i just dont know 'how' to play the game  or morely how to use atreides ..because when i actually get used to them and start using fremen with them..well :]  everything will fall into place much better.....basically i dont wanna rely on sards and if ur saying i have to,then either there are no good 'atreides' players, or the game is flawed

if the latter is more accurate then im goin back to c&c and just remember emp as a good sequal to dune2..

[thesnake]

you can hold me off with ords or harck without sards because of the power of the buzes or the dusties which dont exsist  in the case of the weak atr bicks and inf so if you are going to race a light

units early deffence or even attack your forces will be a jock  against the other to houses

even if they didnt use sards...i am telling you my view of atr from the other side of the  front as harck player its just the way i see them but i realy not advising because i dont know haw to playe

atr anyway..but anyway you cant use gooses with minos because if the anemy use elites with minos his minos army will eat your army plus you need the fac to make minos so he will make more minos than u...plus goose is slow firring at carryall and carryalls will most propebly land over the mino befor the goose even see it..you ideas will work only if the other players stop using sards

which no one eals in this comunety exept  you agree on that lol...but if the other players are using sards against your atr i guess you wont be as lucky as u were with ords.

[Megashrap]

I know I haven't played in a long time, but Eid are you still not using subs man? damn.  ;)

[pearlmen]

if you wanna be a good atreidis, you can rush with ur sandbikes and inf first. dont wait to em in ur base or near ur harviester till hark or ordos rush to you. try to rush even you would fail.

if you gonna play without sard, just practice sandbike micro management. dont even think about mino, sonic, orni.. first trying to use ur bike like dustscout against hark buzzsaw, and use ur buggy like buzzsaw against ordos dusty or laser. but if opponenet use sard? you need to kill them until they get mass sardaukr with ur buggies.

you must win ur first battle with them. next you can do use tatics mino, sonic, ornis...or everything.

...........next you probly think about use mino, orni, sonic, geese.

use 3~5dropship+mino(if you use without sard) the minos would support ur bike and inf well. or you can drop opponent base when they dont think about defense thier base.

...........and you think about to use kindjal or sniper, wait for ur minotaur. mostly sandbike with kindjal or sniper bad choice in early battle.

finally elites near mino crap? but you should tell it first. if atr get mass mino+mass elites easy, that means atr players skill better than hark or ordos one. why they let atr get just simply combo so easy? atr even get mass just  mino with elites? thats not easy.

[eid]

well in response to scar,  basically i wanna use all the main house units to their potential

i wanna use airmines.apc instead of elites ,  snipers insted of fremen, sonics instead of feydakin, etc u get the idea (dont take the piss on me trying to play the game properly pls)

coz i gotta say when i watch a game even when i first started playing...the first thing i noticed was noone used  all the units,and instead  mostly every game i see turns out almost the exact same way

hark: inf buzz sards gunships then devs if long game

atr: inf bike sards drones minos elites

ordos dust chem sards laser

really all i want is to learn the main houses real powers without  DEPENDING on subs

as most of you do now....

iv noted this before..but what if i use ix/teilexu.. i want to be able to use the main house better so i can think of a better way to use subs

even c&c requires you to use your full army in certain scenarios...the one thing that could unbalance things there would be the map..but thats wheres strategy helps

instead in this game  all i se is sards bikes inf and attack move till ur dead

i've used subs for a few games..and i gotta say, using 20+ sards with dust and chem ...is boring to me

i dont need kobra/apc laser or anything

i see why no 1 uses airmines or apcs or even lasers to an extent

the reason im not using subs is because i dont deserve them

not until i know how to use the mainhouse properly

i expect to loose a lot until i do, so for me making sards just 'to win' does not appeal to me

dont put me on ur team if u cant take a loss...repeatedly :]

pearl if u can show me  a few things that'd be great thanks..it seems ur the only one thats actually helped my game with/out subhouses ,since des woke my ordos up a little, cheers

[Megashrap]

well in response to scar,  basically i wanna use all the main house units to their potential

i wanna use airmines.apc instead of elites ,  snipers insted of fremen, sonics instead of feydakin, etc u get the idea (dont take the piss on me trying to play the game properly pls)

I was just messing with you about the subs, don't take it to heart.  :P

I just think most would agree that playing Emp. "properly" would consist largely relying on counter measures from your opponents attacking army. So why beat your head against the wall by not using them when they are at your disposal and 99.9% of any player i've ever played with or against uses subs. I just mean why throw rocks at a tank hoping to damage it, when you can just attack it with your own damn tank?

[eid]

ok basically im not sure how to best compose an atr army...and subs would only distract me from what the atr units can really do..

when i know howto use atr more effectively,  like ordos or hark, i can use subs for other things,

as well as being my standard support.

like teilexu can be really nasty, in some cases and niabs keep up with lasers

but if i haveto depend on sard/fremen then i wont be able to try anything else without problems

and any way this isnt a sub war :P its an atreides strat thread

but for the record,yea i will use subs once i've figured out how to use the houses units properly

that will only make them more efficient in the long run  no?..and thats the point of not using subs  :]    learning isnt easy for some so ima take it sloooooow  :P

[Megashrap]

ok basically im not sure how to best compose an atr army...and subs would only distract me from what the atr units can really do..

when i know howto use atr more effectively,  like ordos or hark, i can use subs for other things,

as well as being my standard support.

like teilexu can be really nasty, in some cases and niabs keep up with lasers

but if i haveto depend on sard/fremen then i wont be able to try anything else without problems

and any way this isnt a sub war :P its an atreides strat thread

but for the record,yea i will use subs once i've figured out how to use the houses units properly

that will only make them more efficient in the long run  no?..and thats the point of not using subs  :]    learning isnt easy for some so ima take it sloooooow  :P

Well by no means am I or ever was an Atr-House fan. but I will always remember players like Kalem who would use just mino's alone with nothing else. It was a Mino free for all killing spree always.  :D  I do know if you let the Atr player get elites etc. with a mino mix,and other subs..it's pretty much a death march if done the  right way. God I hated those. ;)

[eid]

anyone know of a unit statistics faq for atreides?

i'd like to know the rate of fire/speed/range of bikes inf snipers minos

and the health per second regeneration of a repair tank

but can anyone confirm this for me,  i notice a lot that atr inf move faster,do more damage per hit,have longer reload(rof) and seem to be smaller in size per grid? ( as in they have more inf in 1 grid than hark or ord),  but im basing the damage and speed,rof vs hark

[erjin999]

Nothing major to contribute except this one thought.

If Eidohoe gets good with only the main houses, imagine how much better he will be when he learns to use the subs as well ! Like someone who can beat you up with one hand, THEN uses the other one too :P

Powww >< Crash >< Whalop !  8)

[Apollyon]

You have to build as many snipers as you can and put them into as many APCs as you can build. They are excellent against heavy vehicles like devastators.

[jeff2429]

Nah, scouts are the way to go. 8)

[eid]

well good point...but that not the point erj :P    the point is so i can use subs  for another purpose other than my main army  (  like anti aa fremen missions,or getting sabotuers in a base more stealthily-without sacrificing my main armys support---too much at least..? )

apollinax,every1 say to use bar and inf to stop scouts early but i try use mcv and that works too?and walls to the way in my base, but they say its bad, why?.....i try apc+snipers  vs devastators,but its taking long time and they make many devastators and i run low money when i do that ......i even try mcv rush to enemy base like in generals but they use deviator and engineer..how i stop that?

can we make rule in emp? because im not good player

[Megashrap]

can we make rule in emp? because im not good player

[erjin999]

Eid, how about this is war, no rules, no geneva convention, lets just kill the enemy, anyway it must be (just let me know if you gonna do harv dropping so I can prepare them too, basically who ever harv drops first, and isnt totally stupid-thick, should win) ?

If you want to try asking people about those rules you can but I dont think you will have much luck.  :-

[Apollyon]

Well, look. I'm sorry to break it to you, but basically subhouses are pretty integral to Atreides, perhaps more so than to the other houses. If you're really out to try ATR without subs, a good mix of bikes, light inf and the occasional mino is a good idea. If you offset your bike production with more minos instead of more bikes, then you'll want a couple of geese or early drones too, otherwise you'll get them stolen by ADV carryalls.

[KALONY]

if only i were apollinax

greetz

[erjin999]

Nice one Mr "MIA" Kalony. I guess Mr Apoo would be one of the best to give advice on Atr use, as he seemed to have it pretty much wraped up when he used to play.

[eid]

well yea im starting to get slightly better at composing a strong ground force

depending on the enemy hangar situation ,may determine my geese/mino bo

but theres something else i wanna get cleared up

the bikes: they are 300 vs buzz/dust 350

and if memory serves me well,i remember some older player(s) telling me the build speed was based on price,  well anyway thats bullshit

so  ima try figure out a good reason behind the bikes being cheaper that the rest of the tier 1 tanks,,at the moment im thinking it has something to do with theyre inf ,or their (dependance?)on air

in any case im not too far off figuring out this slow weak ass excuse for a house..

makes me wonder why they nerfed fremen in place of a hawk storm though..and i used to think atreides were the smart ones :]  now all they've done is turn my most hated house of dune2/dune2k into my main house ,and turned my secondary house into a wildcard house

at least they left hark as good as they used to be,,even if they  are a little rigid at times

flame on!

[Apollyon]

"so  ima try figure out a good reason behind the bikes being cheaper that the rest of the tier 1 tanks"

Buzzsaws have better armour and two weapons and can crush infantry.

Dustscouts are self-repairing and crazy tough when leveled-up.

Really, neither ATR or Ordos can stand up to Hark in a light tank slugging match without being complemented by other forces: more infantry, mortars, laser tanks, kobras, minos, earlier/more sards, etc. Also, Hark will often build a couple assaults or choose elites over regular sard if they think ATR are going to build minos -- so if you don't, you may have the advantage of more / more applicable units.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Apo is right.

The buzz and the dusties have exact same armor.

Buzz have two guns (double firepower) and can squish infantry.

Dusty has self-heal and therefore likely to benefit more from promotion (hark buzz hardly get past level 1)

Atr buggies have 20% less armor than dusty/buzz and do not self heal and do not squish infantry.  They get extra speed (whoopty dooo)  SO yea bikes sux.

Hark light infantry also have double rate of fire (thus double firepower) over the atr light infantry.

Gas infantry totally ownhark infantry so that means they own atr infantry twice as hard.

What does this mean?   It means that Atr tier 1 frontline army has 20% less armor and 50% less firepower.  This means that a hark army can take on an atr army nearly double its size.

SO you a complete fool if you try to rush hark or ordos.  Minos are the key.  But NOT full minos. sprinkle them in.  For instance build an equal tier 1 army to fight hark but then pop out a quick mino to even the odds.  The splash damage from 2-3 minos will cancel out any firepower/armor advantage that hark has.

However hark and ordos can make deviators, devastators, and carryalls to negate the mino threat.

Furthermore i disagree that all games end the same Eido.  If you see games end in buzz/sard configurations its only becuz the enemies didnt know how to adapt.  For instance who says you cant make elites AND air mines? Why dont you make elites AND goose?  The more the merrier. I am firm believer in MAX production.  MAX production means you are constantly building every type of every unit... including subhouses , PLUS receiving orders from starport.

So pump out your sards, your bikes, your geese, your minos, your drones, your ornis, your air mines, order deviators, sonics and devastators from your starports, build your superweapons, build your leeches, your snipers, your feds, call worms, do it all.  The only thing stopping you is you.

Sards and fremen snipers purpose is to put up a temporary frontline that is strong enough to buy you time to tech up and go to MAX production.  By not making sards and snipers you force yourself to make other units like minos and goose which slow down your ability to tech up.

Using sards should not be an excuse for "not playing atr to its fullest", c'mon man.... make your bikes, sards and your fremen or your leeches and your guild... .then start pumping out the geese and sonics.

Also what bugs me is you criticize the fact that hark games end the same way.   Buzz/inf.sard/fremen/planes/devs   ...ummm its pretty obvious that that is the hark tech tree and if someone uses the units in that order they are not doing anything wrong.  Also i use ink and missile tanks as well.  Probably the only unit i havent used much is the flame tank.  But i admit if you sprinkle a few of those in you kill infantry and bases a bit quicker.

The game isnt flawed.... its just that when you are playing tough players...  efficiency matters over glitz and glitter plays.  The pinpoint gunfire of tier 1 vehicles, sards, inf, and snipers is universal fire that overrides the rock/paper/scissors becuz it does decent damage to anything.  Also the armor values for higher tier units gives diminished returns .... so it is better to have 8 buzz instead of one mino.  because 8 buzz have more armor and firepower than 1 mino.  So smaller tier 1 units in mass will always be more efficient to use in elite games and efficiency is what matters there.

But efficiency can take a back seat if you perform a "powerplay"  Meaning if you win a battle and destroy most of an enemy's army while still keeping much of your own... you've just been given the license to crank out more expensive tiered units to tip the scales.

Another way around this is to simply use your factory and barracks for tier 1 units and use starports for ordering of higher tier units.  This allows  production of tier 1 units and higher tiered units simultaneously which is the best efficiency there is.  Its always better to keep pumping out buzz and order 6 devs from starport than to make 6 individual devs from the factory.  just gotta use your head Eido.  Blaming the game for its subhouses is lame... you can learn atr while using sards.  There is no need for a "subhouse diet".  Also add to the fact that subhouses build so damn slow.... most of what your army consists of is normal units.  The only reason that subhouse units accumulate to the degree that they do is because people wait so long to attack.

Also you must think of sards in the right light.  Sards are not true infantry.  Sards are on the level of a vehicle. It takes a sard 6 shots to kill a dusty and it takes a dusty 6 shots to kill a sard.  This means a sard has same armor value as a dusty. And it means their firepower is identical when it comes to killing infantry and vehicles. (of course sards do better on buildings but thats beside the point)  So really you must picture your sard bar as a "2nd factory".  So if you have a factory and a sard bar up you effectively have two sets of "vehicles" being made in reality.

So 10 buzz and 10 sards is really equal to 20 buzz.  And if the sards are on inf rock its even more.  SO forget what the animations are.... think about the capabilities, the armor, the firepower, then you will see past all the "fluff" of animations and names and truly understand what you are fighting with.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I also wanted to add that the reason that atr tier 1 units sux so bad is because of the fact that atr has the capability of splash damage (minos) and has the almighty drone which drives people into bankruptcy.  This balances out the fact that atr tier one units are so pathetic.

There is also one other reason.  And that is that the atreides can use other subhouses due to the fact that they already have fremen abilities.  They have their own snipers and they have sonic tank to replace feds. So theoretically the atr can do without fremen if they had to.

But a major point i wanted to point out is that instead of people going to the lowest common denominator like Eido is doing, a way people could spice up the game is to EXCHANGE subs.  Meaning you pick sards and feds.  THen your ally picks leech and ix.  During the game each of you gives the other a subhouse building that he/she is lacking and you end up with both ppl having 4 subhouses to produce from instead of 2.  This means you would have 2 extra building to produce from.  This increases your MAX production ability.

Imagine each player being able to make feds, sards, ix, and leeches all at the same time.  Or how about giving your ordos ally your extra hark mcv that you produce and the ordos guy give you his extra ordos mcv that he produces.  Mix the technology.  Lets use the borg logic.  I tihnk players using multi- subhouse and multi-main house strategies are the wave of the future.

I already see that people are taking my advice about exchanging super weapons.  Which is great becuz it increasees your superweapon capabilities by 50%.  Teamwork is the true crux of this game... there is no "flaw" in emperor only flaws in your teamwork.