Talifans!

[NeoDevilbane]

KJA and BH each respond to the trolls out there :

http://www.dunenovels.com/dune7blog/page21.html

[Dante]

*Sigh* You're at it again... Just drop the matter, or at least use a single topic.

Look, it's quite simple. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am doing exactly what the authors seem to be asking people to do. Judge the books that they have written on their own merits. And they suck. And in their sheer wretchedness, they fail to even remotely resemble the Dune as it was. Thus, it follows, a questioning of whether there is any relation to the Dune that was.

Now, when (if) Frank Herbert's notes are actually published, then they will officially exist. This is assuming that they don't come in an 'edited and clarified' form that seems as if it was conveniently written by someone else. And if there is any hint that he planned to use the nullentropy tube (and it would be just like him not to), then it will gain more acceptance.

As for negative reviews of books that have never been read or saying that anyone hated Frank Herbert, I have nothing to do with that.

...Having disrespect for McNelly maybe, but never accused anyone of hating Frank Herbert...

[NeoDevilbane]

*Sigh* You're at it again... Just drop the matter, or at least use a single topic.

Please. There's plenty of threads on this forum that are quite the opposite of this track... what's the harm, in the interests of balance (at the very least)?

Look, it's quite simple.

I think it's far from it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am doing exactly what the authors seem to be asking people to do. Judge the books that they have written on their own merits. And they suck. And in their sheer wretchedness, they fail to even remotely resemble the Dune as it was. Thus, it follows, a questioning of whether there is any relation to the Dune that was.

I'm confused by this paragraph... unless Frank Herbert's outline for Dune 7 follows some kind of uniform blueprint established in Dune 1 - 6 it's not valid -- even though each Dune novel was fairly vastly different from one another in tone and scope?

Now, when (if) Frank Herbert's notes are actually published, then they will officially exist.

Hm, but do we have the notes & outlines on Dune 1 - 6? Can we be certain Frank wrote Chapterhouse, and not his understudy? This seems a paranoid, delusional stance... if George Lucas died a year ago, should fandom band together and demand we all see the shooting script of "Episode III: Revenge of the Sith" signed by George Lucas just so we can sleep easy at night knowing he really wrote it and not Rick McCallum? You're venturing into silliness again, taking yet another thread with you on your trip.

It either "officially" exists or you're not-so-subtly insinuating Brian Herbert is lying about his father's outline and, by consequence, implying that he somehow takes to light his father's creation. Bully for you.

This is assuming that they don't come in an 'edited and clarified' form that seems as if it was conveniently written by someone else. And if there is any hint that he planned to use the nullentropy tube (and it would be just like him not to), then it will gain more acceptance.

* sigh *

As for negative reviews of books that have never been read or saying that anyone hated Frank Herbert, I have nothing to do with that.

Nobody said you did. Guilty conscience, perhaps?

...Having disrespect for McNelly maybe, but never accused anyone of hating Frank Herbert...

I'm very sorry you have disrespect for McNelly. He was a decent man.

On a side note, that E-mail KJA is quoting in his blog looks very familiar to me... hmmm... ah well, must be some other guy that feels the same way as me. :)

[Caid Ivik]

Such criticizing of their disappointed customers is a very unlucky strategy. If I say their work was bad I don't mean that their books were lacking FH subscription, but simply that (at least House Corrino and Djihad, as others I haven't read) their quality was of lesser average. They lack the spirit which fascinates me on FH's Dunes, I don't trust them they'll be able to find it again. These book are on level of EBFD story; while they lack your interaction, which makes it funny... I can't say if they even understand know what made Dune so popular.

I doubt this is going the right way:

We are very grateful for this solid base of fans who look forward to a new Dune novel each year.

[MrFlibble]

So we're now the bad guys, right? As opposed to the true Dune fans who will unquestioningly read everything that bears the name "Dune" and cheer.

[Dante]

Please. There's plenty of threads on this forum that are quite the opposite of this track... what's the harm, in the interests of balance (at the very least)?

Except that 'balance' isn't your purpose, is it, fanboy?

I'm confused by this paragraph... unless Frank Herbert's outline for Dune 7 follows some kind of uniform blueprint established in Dune 1 - 6 it's not valid -- even though each Dune novel was fairly vastly different from one another in tone and scope?

...Fine. If you insist on being obtuse, we'll just take it slowly.

The original six novels were complex, detailed, philosophical, mysterious, spectacular, and at times downright confusing. The prequels, thus far, have been simplistic, moronic, predictable, and generally boring. Thus any notes for Dune 7 written by Frank Herbert, it would be expected, would show the qualities of the former. Not the latter. Clear? And if they resemble more the latter...

Hm, but do we have the notes & outlines on Dune 1 - 6? Can we be certain Frank wrote Chapterhouse, and not his understudy? This seems a paranoid, delusional stance... if George Lucas died a year ago, should fandom band together and demand we all see the shooting script of "Episode III: Revenge of the Sith" signed by George Lucas just so we can sleep easy at night knowing he really wrote it and not Rick McCallum? You're venturing into silliness again, taking yet another thread with you on your trip.

If Frank Herbert had a ghost writer (and it was you who suggested that, not me), then he or she is clearly not writing the prequels. What I'm saying is that so far, there has been no incontravertable proof that a) this 'detailed and expansive outline' exists or that b) it was written by Frank Herbert. Don't even think about pointing us in the direction of those pictures of discs. That's as ridiculous as saying "Of course aliens invaded Earth! Look, watch this movie!"

And so when we see these notes, unadulterated and 'clean,' then they will exist. Until then, all we have is someone else's word. And given that this same word also claimed these notes were the basis of the 'Legends' series, I think I'm justified in being skeptical.

Also, there's no need to make this personal you know.

It either "officially" exists or you're not-so-subtly insinuating Brian Herbert is lying about his father's outline and, by consequence, implying that he somehow takes to light his father's creation. Bully for you.

Subtle? I've never been subtle about that. Dealt with above.

Nobody said you did. Guilty conscience, perhaps?

Don't be dense.

I'm very sorry you have disrespect for McNelly. He was a decent man.

Again, you're being deliberately obtuse. And dense.

On a side note, that E-mail KJA is quoting in his blog looks very familiar to me... hmmm... ah well, must be some other guy that feels the same way as me. :)

Is that a not-so-subtle way of claiming responsibility for that e-mail? You know, I wouldn't be surprised if it was you. And just to make things clear for that nasty little paranoia complex of yours, that isn't an accusation. It just has the same kind of... feeling to it. And the use of similar wording.

And all things considered, it would be just like you to gather everything offensive that you can find in this board and send it off to the authors just to get some official response that you can gleefully wave in front of our noses.

Again, not an accusation. Just a statement.

Both of the posts above this one have something decent to say.

[Tezcatlipoca]

I think we Gob should create a subsection in "Politics, Religion, & Philosophy" for this topic :P

[NeoDevilbane]

That email sounds very much like you. The revenge thing is purely your imagination - noone implied that.

Lately. Look back over the past 3 or so years bringing up the Dune 7 outline... you'll find at least a few posters pretty much flat out saying just that.

But do we believe that a "very detailed" outline was miraculously found or that Brian and Kevin are trying to make as much money as possible out of Dune? I believe the latter, thank you very much.

Then you're a sad, sad man.

Brian in the blog : "I did not undertake this task quickly. In fact, I delayed tackling any new Dune projects until 1997, eleven years after my father's untimely death. If I had wanted to maximize my income from these books, there was a big "window of opportunity" in the first couple of years after he passed away. For many reasons, most of them having to do with the integrity of my father's literary legacy, I did not continue the series when it would have been the most financially profitable."

In the very entry your first post links to, Kevin Anderson says House Atreides sold far more than they expected...THINK damnit THINK.

It was relevant to the blog... what was the problem?

[NeoDevilbane]

Except that 'balance' isn't your purpose, is it, fanboy?

Just the facts, ma'am.

...Fine. If you insist on being obtuse, we'll just take it slowly.

Would you please? I'm not the young whipper-snapper I used to be. *wheeze*

The original six novels were complex, detailed, philosophical, mysterious, spectacular, and at times downright confusing. The prequels, thus far, have been simplistic, moronic, predictable, and generally boring.

Then you'll agree it's a good thing for Dune 7 that they'll be led by the nose by a "detailed," "complete," and "expansive" outline by Frank himself. While you can argue the writing may not end up being spot-on to FH's, the plot itself will be all FH's... no reason we can't expect it to be complex, detailed, philosophical, mysterious, spectacular, and many more things.

At any rate, you're entitled to your opinion and many would agree with you. Personally, I found them all enjoyable reads. To paraphrase a friend, the new books aren't brilliant, but they are well written, a lot of fun and - here's the key - absolutely unpretentious. The new Dune books are all stories based on Dune without any blatant attempts at subtext, allegory and the like. They do their darndest to emulate the style of the original Dune and use it to tell stories.

Thus any notes for Dune 7 written by Frank Herbert, it would be expected, would show the qualities of the former. Not the latter. Clear? And if they resemble more the latter...

Clear, but you can't really lump all 6 together under one neat, tidy category. They're very different novels. Reading the original Dune and then diving into God Emperor, for example, are both marvelous experiences, but comparing the two is like comparing water to wine.

If Frank Herbert had a ghost writer (and it was you who suggested that, not me), then he or she is clearly not writing the prequels. What I'm saying is that so far, there has been no incontravertable proof that a) this 'detailed and expansive outline' exists or that b) it was written by Frank Herbert. Don't even think about pointing us in the direction of those pictures of discs.

We have no reason to believe otherwise without, A) Accusing Brian Herbert of lying about his dead father's outline, B) Accusing Brian Herbert of lying about there being any safety deposit box, C) Accusing Brian and Kevin, two respected sci-fi writers on their own merit, of collectively coming out and lying to the fandom about the former(s), D) Believe Brian Herbert is consciously taking a dump on Frank Herbert's legacy by participating in the deceit. To believe that, Mr. Dante, requires a lot of cynicism and general assholery.

That's as ridiculous as saying "Of course aliens invaded Earth! Look, watch this movie!"

Hm? You're being too obtuse for me again. :)

And so when we see these notes, unadulterated and 'clean,' then they will exist. Until then, all we have is someone else's word.

I agree with you, I would like to read the outline (we're not talking about notes) someday as well and hope they do plan to release it eventually. But not now, and certainly not until at least a short time after all of Dune 7 has been released in novel form. I mean, I'd be too weak willed and compelled to not read over the outline... and that would drastically demystify things for when the novels would be released.

It'd be like, if you're a huge Star Wars fan, reading the entire shooting screenplay "for Star Wars: Episode III" weeks before attending the premiere. While you'd still be wowed, much of the impact and wonder would be lost.

And given that this same word also claimed these notes were the basis of the 'Legends' series, I think I'm justified in being skeptical.

I think you're getting your notes mixed up. There's both, 1) An outlined, detailed, & expansive outline for Dune 7 on a floppy, 2) Some notes further detailing Dune 7 on a seperate floppy, 3) Boxes of notes, missing chapters, etc., not left in any safety deposit box that both BH and KJA had access to before even beginning "House Atreides." In these notes they found material for the "House" books and the "Legends" books, and helped BH complete the "Dune Concordance" he completed.

And the "Legends" thing is a bit fuzzy, I should ask KJA to clarify things. I could be mistaken, but from what I understand, FH had, for some time, drawn up the background and very most general details of the Butlerian Jihad for a possible novel. Then McNelly stepped in and actually wrote a chapter or two (this much I've heard as fact, I believe) off his own notes and the like, but nothing really happened as far as a collaboration. Whatever the case, some wheels were turning prior to FH's death, so it's not unfeasible there was some intention of somebody doing a Butlerian Jihad novel.

Don't be dense.

Youch!

Again, you're being deliberately obtuse. And dense.

Double youch!

Is that a not-so-subtle way of claiming responsibility for that e-mail? You know, I wouldn't be surprised if it was you. And just to make things clear for that nasty little paranoia complex of yours, that isn't an accusation.

You're cracking me up. I'm the paranoid one? I don't have delusions of some kind of grand scheme by BH/KJA to come up with some elaborate cover story involving lying about a safety deposit box, an outline, and misleading Dune fans all over the world.

It just has the same kind of... feeling to it. And the use of similar wording.

Could be.

And all things considered, it would be just like you to gather everything offensive that you can find in this board and send it off to the authors just to get some official response that you can gleefully wave in front of our noses.

Again, not an accusation. Just a statement.

Trying to set the record straight is something dubious? Maybe I'm being obtuse and dense, but I'm not seeing where you're coming from there.

[Dragoon Knight]

Quote

That's as ridiculous as saying "Of course aliens invaded Earth! Look, watch this movie!"

Hm? You're being too obtuse for me again. :)

I think that clarifies things. :)

[Dante]

Just the facts, ma'am.

Then keep the 'facts' in a single thread.

Then you'll agree it's a good thing for Dune 7 that they'll be led by the nose by a "detailed," "complete," and "expansive" outline by Frank himself. While you can argue the writing may not end up being spot-on to FH's, the plot itself will be all FH's... no reason we can't expect it to be complex, detailed, philosophical, mysterious, spectacular, and many more things.

At any rate, you're entitled to your opinion and many would agree with you. Personally, I found them all enjoyable reads. To paraphrase a friend, the new books aren't brilliant, but they are well written, a lot of fun and - here's the key - absolutely unpretentious. The new Dune books are all stories based on Dune without any blatant attempts at subtext, allegory and the like. They do their darndest to emulate the style of the original Dune and use it to tell stories.

In which case that's just what they should be. Stories. Not 'The official dune universe as set in stone.' Stories. Fanfiction. If the prequels had been published as 'non-canon' then I would have much less of a problem with them.

I would agree that it is a good thing that this outline is supposed to be the plot for the new books, except that 1) There is as yet no incontravertable proof that it exists, or that it was written by Frank Herbert (this could easily be answered by publishing the notes); and 2) Writing a plot like that in the style of the prequels would be murder. It was painful enough to read 'The Battle of Corrin.' At the moment, the mere fact that Dune 7 and 8 are being written at all is a bad thing.

I should point out, before people claim that I am biased against the new authors for no good reason, that when I first heard that that Dune 7 and 8 were going to be written, I was extremely happy. The 'House' series hadn't been excellent, but they had at least been passable. Then the Legends series came along. And what a disaster that was. Those three books, more than anything else, killed my respect for the BH/KJA partnership. Oh no wait, there was one other thing that was worse. See below.

Clear, but you can't really lump all 6 together under one neat, tidy category. They're very different novels. Reading the original Dune and then diving into God Emperor, for example, are both marvelous experiences, but comparing the two is like comparing water to wine.

Water and wine are more similar to each other than they are to compressed sewage.

We have no reason to believe otherwise without, A) Accusing Brian Herbert of lying about his dead father's outline, B) Accusing Brian Herbert of lying about there being any safety deposit box, C) Accusing Brian and Kevin, two respected sci-fi writers on their own merit, of collectively coming out and lying to the fandom about the former(s), D) Believe Brian Herbert is consciously taking a dump on Frank Herbert's legacy by participating in the deceit. To believe that, Mr. Dante, requires a lot of cynicism and general assholery.

Then I'm a cynic. *Shrug* It's not like we've got any evidence to the contrary.

Hm? You're being too obtuse for me again. :)

Just because you write 'cow' on a brick, does not make it a cow. Writing 'Dune 7' on a disc does not make it an outline for Dune 7. Dragoon gave another, slightly more morbid example.

I agree with you, I would like to read the outline (we're not talking about notes) someday as well and hope they do plan to release it eventually. But not now, and certainly not until at least a short time after all of Dune 7 has been released in novel form. I mean, I'd be too weak willed and compelled to not read over the outline... and that would drastically demystify things for when the novels would be released.

It'd be like, if you're a huge Star Wars fan, reading the entire shooting screenplay "for Star Wars: Episode III" weeks before attending the premiere. While you'd still be wowed, much of the impact and wonder would be lost.

Notes, outline, outline, notes... The point is that each consecutive Dune novel by these two has been worse than the last. If the pattern continues, Dunes 7 and 8 will be even more abysmal. Thus it would be better if they were not written at all. And so the notes/outline could be published now, or very very soon, because there would not be a novel.

I think you're getting your notes mixed up. There's both, 1) An outlined, detailed, & expansive outline for Dune 7 on a floppy, 2) Some notes further detailing Dune 7 on a seperate floppy, 3) Boxes of notes, missing chapters, etc., not left in any safety deposit box that both BH and KJA had access to before even beginning "House Atreides." In these notes they found material for the "House" books and the "Legends" books, and helped BH complete the "Dune Concordance" he completed.

And the "Legends" thing is a bit fuzzy, I should ask KJA to clarify things. I could be mistaken, but from what I understand, FH had, for some time, drawn up the background and very most general details of the Butlerian Jihad for a possible novel. Then McNelly stepped in and actually wrote a chapter or two (this much I've heard as fact, I believe) off his own notes and the like, but nothing really happened as far as a collaboration. Whatever the case, some wheels were turning prior to FH's death, so it's not unfeasible there was some intention of somebody doing a Butlerian Jihad novel.

As I understood it, the notes on which the Legends and Dunes 7/8 are based on are one and the same. From the coincidentally timed safe deposit box. The House books were just cobbled together from Frank's leftovers.

Dr McNelly offered to help with the prequels and was turned down. That was the first thing that caused me to rethink my opinion of the new authors. Worse even than the Legends series.

You're cracking me up. I'm the paranoid one? I don't have delusions of some kind of grand scheme by BH/KJA to come up with some elaborate cover story involving lying about a safety deposit box, an outline, and misleading Dune fans all over the world.

Who said anything about a grand scheme? Doesn't take much to lie. And in case you haven't noticed, there is no evidence to disprove my 'paranoid' theory.

Could be.

Make up your mind.

Trying to set the record straight is something dubious? Maybe I'm being obtuse and dense, but I'm not seeing where you're coming from there.

Quite simple. When a group of children are fighting, and they are all hurt and bleeding, they are roughly equal in each others' eyes. When the whiny one runs away to tell a teacher what's going on, that child immediately becomes the least popular. Not because the other children might get into trouble, but because they broke what was until then a private conflict. Get my drift?

[gunner154]

I've never touched the new books, but I'm quite doubtful about them. Frank Herbert's brilliance is almost difficult to match, and I don't happen to have a lot of time on my hands to read something people have claimed to be sub-standard. Call me biased, but I'm not touching any Dune book but the first 6.

[Mahdi]

Cut out the name calling.  Both sides.  It's bordering on flaming.

In response to the "talifans" posting, well, KJA and BH have a point.

There are people out there who never gave the books a chance.  Who trashed them on amazon before they were even released.  But you have to recognize that there is a difference between that and the normal pre-judging of a product.

We pre-judge everything we read/watch/listen/eat.  We don't go see every single movie released, we pick and chose based on the information we have.  If a movie looks horrible to us, we do not go see it, and we'll peobably mention how horrible it sounds.  Which is what most people here are doing about hunters and sandworms.  Not everybody who thinks that is a "talifan".  Just as not everybody who thinks it sounds good is a raving fanboy.

Going on amazon and posting negative reviews of a book you haven't read is being a troll.  Saying that you think what you've heard so far about a book yet to be released sounds horrible and makes you not want to read it is, well, normal.  I think Cheaper by the Dozen 2 looks horrible.  If I see a poster for it or a commercial I'll say to anybody around me "That looks horrible".  I'm sure everyone else here does exactly the same thing

I've made no secret of my dislike for the new novels.  I've read them, and they simply weren't my cup of tea.  Nor do I like what I have heard is coming in the future books, as I do beleive they sound like horrible ideas. 

That's not to say that the books themselves are not an accomplishment.  I've also said many times that, for what they are, they are very good.  As far as Star-warsy sci-fi action novels go, they are very well done and I am not surprised by the fact that they do have many fans and have made many sales.  Kudos to KJA and BH for being so successful.  If you do a quick search I'm sure you'll find many posts saying the same thing.

KJA and BH don't seem to be talking to people who read their books and don't like them, or who don't like what they've heard of Hunters and Sandworms.  They reffered specificly to the people their "Talifans" are.  Those who went out and gave one star reviews on amazon before the books were even written. 

I do believe Neodevilbane is confusing these types of people with those who simply do not like the books.  I also believe everyone else is unjustly painting Neodevilbane with the "fanboy" brush.  It seems to me he's just sick of all this negativity towards books he truely enjoys and is taking it as blind hatred for there simple existence, not simple dislike of the finished product.  And I think both sides are taking the whole "fan" issue way too seriously.

I'm a fan of the original Dune series because I like them, not because they were all written by Frank Herbert.

A new book in another series I've enjoyed came out last month.  I did not like it.  I am not a fan of that book, but I am still a fan of the other books in the series.

It is not an all or nothing proposition.  You are allowed to like some books and not others.  You can be a fan of, say, House Atreides, Dune, and GEOD, and absolutely hate The Machine Crusade and Dune Messiah, and it is a legitimate position. 

There is a line that seperates trolls from people who simply don't like a product.  In my mind that line lies at willingness to accept a product on its own merits.  If Hunters and Sandworms blow me away, then I will say that they blew me away.  That they were awesome and amazing works.  That I was completely off in my earlier assesment based on the released info (just like I would if, say, I saw Cheaper by the dozen 2 and it turned out to be good).  I'm also certain that most of the people here will/would do the exact same thing.

I think most people here and in the other threads (really I could have posted this in most of the currently active threads) need to step back and say "You know what, it's just a book.  He likes it, who am I to try and ruin something he enjoys?  He doesn't like it, who am I to say he's just being an ignorant troll?"

Some of you remember my old catch phrase.  I think it's time to bring it back, with one small word changed.

Because, ultimately...

It's just a freaking book (series).

[Terror]

Well Mahdi, that sounds like a good conclusion to me. I actually liked the original 6 quite a lot (a bit less for messiah and children, too slow) and also liked the prequels alot. Legends of Dune has it's charm. Although I suppose Brian and Kevin kinda lost track of the liters of blood and body parts they described. But apart from that the story was pretty solid and interesting. Only rarely did I think that they made a real mistake.

I do think that the prequels and legends of Dune are loathed simply because most people here realy loved the original Dune and expected a new book in the same style and of the same quality as the original one(s). That's why I think that hardcore fans have trouble with respecting the new books. Whereas new and well.. not hardcore fans kind of like both (or maybe even just the new ones).

[exatreide]

I just hated the prequels because they were badly written, if Frank Herbert had written them word for word like Keven J Anderson or Brian Herbert I still would have hated it. It was nothing personal for them being Dune books not written by Frank Herbert, they were just bad books.

[Andrew]

I tried reading Battle of Corrin over the holidays, and I got to page 20 or so and found something better to do. So I've had the book since it came out (bought it, like the rest of the jihad books) and havn't read it. That doesn't make me a happy customer :P

But they say they needed to write the jihad series to [help] make sense of what happens in Dune 7+8, so I *will* have to read it I guess. Odd, I don't remember having to read prequel books to make sense of GEoD or Heretics, I used my imagination.

I'll be getting the books from the library instead of buying them as the jihad series was disappointing (too disappointing to continue buying). I might buy them if they are good after reading them. I didn't mind the house series, I actually bought House Harkonnen hard cover when I noticed it was on sale after I had read it from the library.

Maybe it has something to do with the jihad series not being with the "normal" Dune storyline (IE after the butlerian jihad).

Seemed poorly written as they repeat everything to remind the reader of what was going on in the books.

Thing I liked about FH books was that I actually had to look back at what I had read to understand what was going on instead of the author simply telling me what has happened and what it meant. Best example is when the stone burner hit Paul Atreides, I went back and read like 30 pages again to before finishing that chapter.

Mahdi needs an Emmy for his post.

People who say they dislike the books before (without) reading them are idiots.

People who say they dislike the books after reading them are posting an opinion, just like people who post positive opinions.

I was going to flame about having the books due for a september release every year, but I am not going to bother.

[nemafakei]

On these notes:

Firstly, they'll likely be more plot ideas and the more scifi element of it (what the Tleilaxu/Matres/BG are doing), not so much deep themes and philosophical musings. I enjoyed Dune not just for the ideas, but how they developed. I could summarise the plot of Dune to someone else, and if they wrote a novel, it would be very different to read indeed.

Secondly, it's not just a question of their existence, but which bits are used and which are ignored. I'm happy to believe that FH invented cymeks and allsorts. I'd need more convincing to believe he was going to use them in Dune. I've not read any BH/KJA cymek stuff, but there's also no guarantee FH's vision was anything like what the prequels have.

I don't doubt that there are notes. I'm just not convinced of how they're going to be used. Of course I'm glad there are Dune books as opposed to nothing, but I would rather they were written differently.

[NeoDevilbane]

*sigh* You're crushing me... you said you wouldn't "bother" with me anymore, but here you go.

Mahdi I believe you 've completely missed the point. Neodevilbane isn't merely saying his opinion that the books aren't bad, with which I would not disagree. He's trying too hard to convince us about the detailed outline for Dune 7.

You either believe Frank Herbert left the "detailed" "expansive" and "complete" outline to Brian Herbert, or you believe Brian Herbert is lying and you are a sad, sad troll that I would challenge to substantiate yourself any better than (essentially) "Well... well... they wrote some bad prequels, so they must be lying about the outline!"

Just look at how many posts of his are saying this.

Look how many say the opposite, look how many posts certain people post about Duncan Idaho and Face Dancers... who cares, what's your point?

I doubt such an outline exists, but even if it does, he still appears like a Kevin and Brian fanboy.

Because I point out the sillyness of the conspiracy theorists that thrive here?

[NeoDevilbane]

Then keep the 'facts' in a single thread.

If a moderator feels it's appropriate to consolidate threads/topics/opinions into a single thread, then so be it.

In which case that's just what they should be. Stories. Not 'The official dune universe as set in stone.' Stories. Fanfiction. If the prequels had been published as 'non-canon' then I would have much less of a problem with them.

The prequels are really kind of a non-issue. I mean, they're not bad writing, but it does seem like it takes them three books to do what FH could do in a single novel... maybe not even that much.

I would agree that it is a good thing that this outline is supposed to be the plot for the new books, except that 1) There is as yet no incontravertable proof that it exists, or that it was written by Frank Herbert (this could easily be answered by publishing the notes)

If Brian Herbert wasn't in the picture at all and KJA just somehow "Acquired" the outline for Dune 7, I'd say that would be more than a little dubious and probably call "B.S." on that right with you. But Brian Herbert is in the picture, and you're suggesting he's lying about his dead father's outline. That requires a big leap of faith to buy into that conspiracy theory, a leap of faith supported only by -- from what I can tell -- an admittedly substantial size of the readership of the prequel novels generally agreeing that the prequels are "ehhhhh."

and 2) Writing a plot like that in the style of the prequels would be murder. It was painful enough to read 'The Battle of Corrin.'

Yes, you're right. We may see a lot of the writing style of the prequels in Dune 7/8, that is to be expected -- we can certainly hold KJA/BH accountable for that much.

At the moment, the mere fact that Dune 7 and 8 are being written at all is a bad thing.

I don't see why. I mean, the people that want to finally read the climax of FH's books can do so at last. The people that don't want to know can just not buy it.

I should point out, before people claim that I am biased against the new authors for no good reason, that when I first heard that that Dune 7 and 8 were going to be written, I was extremely happy. The 'House' series hadn't been excellent, but they had at least been passable. Then the Legends series came along. And what a disaster that was. Those three books, more than anything else, killed my respect for the BH/KJA partnership. Oh no wait, there was one other thing that was worse. See below.

The prequels are very debatable, I agree.

Just because you write 'cow' on a brick, does not make it a cow. Writing 'Dune 7' on a disc does not make it an outline for Dune 7. Dragoon gave another, slightly more morbid example.

True, and I'm sure BH knows that. It's a measure of good faith from him (I'm assuming it's coming from him) that offers us a glimpse at "the proof" ... what did you expect, BH to mass-mail all of Dune 7/8's conspiracy theorists VHS tapes of FH saving the outline to the floppies?

Notes, outline, outline, notes...

Just wanted to clarify what we were talking about is all.

The point is that each consecutive Dune novel by these two has been worse than the last. If the pattern continues, Dunes 7 and 8 will be even more abysmal.

Realistically, the prose could be terrible, horrible. But beneath the possible stink will be Frank's "detailed" "complete" outline for the plot. Or... god forbid... FH's outline and FH's notes for Dune 7 may be adequate inspiration/guideline enough to mine some pretty good writing out of them as far as the prose goes. Either way, we're getting FH's outline realized -- this is a good thing.

Thus it would be better if they were not written at all.

That's a very selfish notion. I think the majority of Dune fans would at least like to know what happens, even if KJA/BH may not end up channeling FH entirely in Dune 7/8.

And so the notes/outline could be published now, or very very soon, because there would not be a novel.

Again, I'd like to read the outline and notes, too. Now or later is fine.

As I understood it, the notes on which the Legends and Dunes 7/8 are based on are one and the same. From the coincidentally timed safe deposit box.

Hm, I don't believe so, but feel free to prove me wrong (I could be). They had plans to do the Jihad after the prequels as far as I recall, plans which were then slightly tweaked when they read the notes/outline for Dune 7/8 -- KJA/BH started talking in interviews and such about how, after we read the Legends trilogy and then Dune 7, we'll understand the need to put those out first and how it'd all kind of tie together or something. We'll see.

The House books were just cobbled together from Frank's leftovers.

Yeah, exactly.

Dr McNelly offered to help with the prequels and was turned down. That was the first thing that caused me to rethink my opinion of the new authors. Worse even than the Legends series.

I think that's accurate, but we can only speculate on the "why." Or conspiracy theorize, as seems to be the order of the day.

Who said anything about a grand scheme? Doesn't take much to lie. And in case you haven't noticed, there is no evidence to disprove my 'paranoid' theory.

Who said? You did for one, by implification that BH is lying. If we're assuming BH is lying, by consequence, we have to also believe the whole story about the safety deposit box is made up, that they're lying about FH's notes/outline having anything that ties threads from the Legends trilogy to Dune 7/8, and so on. In other words, you can't just say they're lying about the one thing without the whole house of cards becoming a house of shit... that seems like a grand scheme to me.

Quite simple. When a group of children are fighting, and they are all hurt and bleeding, they are roughly equal in each others' eyes. When the whiny one runs away to tell a teacher what's going on, that child immediately becomes the least popular. Not because the other children might get into trouble, but because they broke what was until then a private conflict. Get my drift?

Yeah... stay quiet and don't argue with 18 year-olds spreading conspiracy theories based on nothing. Gotcha.

[NeoDevilbane]

Secondly, it's not just a question of their existence, but which bits are used and which are ignored.

I can see that, but personally I think it's less a concern of "Are they leaving things out?" and more a concern of "Are they adding a lot of their own things into the mix?" That's a reasonable concern, one I share.

[NeoDevilbane]

Good to see you post here, Mahdi. You have always had a pretty good head on your shoulders, this is no exception.

There are people out there who never gave the books a chance.  Who trashed them on amazon before they were even released.  But you have to recognize that there is a difference between that and the normal pre-judging of a product.

There is.

We pre-judge everything we read/watch/listen/eat.  We don't go see every single movie released, we pick and chose based on the information we have.  If a movie looks horrible to us, we do not go see it, and we'll peobably mention how horrible it sounds.  Which is what most people here are doing about hunters and sandworms.

Very observant.

Not everybody who thinks that is a "talifan".  Just as not everybody who thinks it sounds good is a raving fanboy.

True, but all KJA was doing was just quoting the artist, Bob Eggleton, not coining the term at anyone himself (except about the Amazon one-starrers toward the end).

Going on amazon and posting negative reviews of a book you haven't read is being a troll.  Saying that you think what you've heard so far about a book yet to be released sounds horrible and makes you not want to read it is, well, normal.  I think Cheaper by the Dozen 2 looks horrible.  If I see a poster for it or a commercial I'll say to anybody around me "That looks horrible".  I'm sure everyone else here does exactly the same thing.

Word of mouth, absolutely. It's a fact of life seen in everything from the entertainment industry to the culinary and hospitality industries.

I've made no secret of my dislike for the new novels.  I've read them, and they simply weren't my cup of tea.  Nor do I like what I have heard is coming in the future books, as I do beleive they sound like horrible ideas.

If you are referring to "Paul of Dune" and the Junior and Young Adult novels they've slipped mention of in interviews, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Less is more. In their case... much more. :)

That's not to say that the books themselves are not an accomplishment.  I've also said many times that, for what they are, they are very good.  As far as Star-warsy sci-fi action novels go, they are very well done and I am not surprised by the fact that they do have many fans and have made many sales.  Kudos to KJA and BH for being so successful.  If you do a quick search I'm sure you'll find many posts saying the same thing.

My thing is, it's good they're there for people who want them. They're not pretentious, they're reasonably engaging reads, and they expand a universe you probably are really fond of.

KJA and BH don't seem to be talking to people who read their books and don't like them, or who don't like what they've heard of Hunters and Sandworms.  They refered specificly to the people their "Talifans" are.  Those who went out and gave one star reviews on amazon before the books were even written. 

I think KJA was basically equating "talifan" with "trolls."

I do believe Neodevilbane is confusing these types of people with those who simply do not like the books.

Not at all, I understand people that don't like the prequels. That's fine, I know they're very debatable. Who I'm talking to is the conspiracy theorists who insinuate -- some, directly -- that BH is lying about his dead father's outline. If some of these people also happen to not have enjoyed the prequels may be the origin of this, but is really beside the fact.

If I do some shoddy writing, is my *character* and *morality* in question? It's absurd, plain and simple.

I also believe everyone else is unjustly painting Neodevilbane with the "fanboy" brush. It seems to me he's just sick of all this negativity towards books he truely enjoys and is taking it as blind hatred for their simple existence, not simple dislike of the finished product.  And I think both sides are taking the whole "fan" issue way too seriously.

Again, I'm not/never have arguing about the prequels -- I personally enjoy them, but understand if a portion of the fandom does not. I'm not about to start waving the KJA/BH fan and even begin to attempt to win that battle.

I'm a fan of the original Dune series because I like them, not because they were all written by Frank Herbert.

A new book in another series I've enjoyed came out last month.  I did not like it.  I am not a fan of that book, but I am still a fan of the other books in the series.

It is not an all or nothing proposition.  You are allowed to like some books and not others.  You can be a fan of, say, House Atreides, Dune, and GEOD, and absolutely hate The Machine Crusade and Dune Messiah, and it is a legitimate position.

Absolutely.

There is a line that seperates trolls from people who simply don't like a product.

And another line altogether that seperates people who don't like a product with people who call a person's character and morality into strong, strong question in imaginative (read: conspiracy theory) fashion. I'd call this pretty close to troll-hood, if not transcending it.

In my mind that line lies at willingness to accept a product on its own merits.  If Hunters and Sandworms blow me away, then I will say that they blew me away.  That they were awesome and amazing works.  That I was completely off in my earlier assesment based on the released info (just like I would if, say, I saw Cheaper by the dozen 2 and it turned out to be good).  I'm also certain that most of the people here will/would do the exact same thing.

I think a better example of at least one part of what I'm talking about would be something like :

You hate pop and hip-hop, R&B, yet you absolutely love Beethoven. Tomorrow, Beethoven's final symphony is discovered in a vault in Cairo and turned over to his latest descendant and estate under relatively believable circumstances (bear with me). It's decided it will be unveiled to the world. It's also decided that the symphony will be premiered by having... Alicia Keyes play it to a live audience, having it simultaneously broadcast across the world.

Is it truly better for everyone at large to never hear the symphony at all? There's going to be a ton of Beethoven fans who would love to at least hear what it would have been, even if the man himself isn't around to play it himself ... should these people be denied it?

I think most people here and in the other threads (really I could have posted this in most of the currently active threads) need to step back and say "You know what, it's just a book.  He likes it, who am I to try and ruin something he enjoys?  He doesn't like it, who am I to say he's just being an ignorant troll?"

I'm not trying to convince anyone to "like" anything. Never have. I'm merely challenging the conspiracy theorists to better substantiate themselves, which they've succeeded so far only in dancing around.

Some of you remember my old catch phrase.  I think it's time to bring it back, with one small word changed.

Because, ultimately...

It's just a freaking book (series).

Well, it's part of an ongoing franchise that includes various versions of a theatrical film, two mini-series, numerous videogames, bedsheets (hey, I used to have some!), a card game, and so on... but your point is well taken.