Time Travel

[gerbilpoo]

Ok first, what are your thoughts on this topic. I don't want to just dive in with my idea and then get gunned down by corrections (or gunwounds)lol ;D

[TheRedDuke05]

*Says in Arnold like voice, "Sara Connor?"  :D

[Dude_Doc]

To simplify it all: if you control gravity, you control time. My neighbours, who live upstairs, their time is faster than mine, and mine is faster than the bank below me. Same with very high towers, airplanes, and so on.

[Edric O]

Yes, and you can use such relativistic effects to travel into the future. You cannot, however, travel into the past.

[nemafakei]

It's very simple actually, though you have to be a little patient. The standard speed is about sixty minutes per hour.

[Davidu]

I don't know if time travel is possible.

You make MASS disapear from one univerce - NOW and appear into another universe - THEN.

It would be a paradox. It would destroy the balance.

You know: nothing is lost, nothing is gained, everything transforms...

The MASS of the universe is the same... Is you modify that... it might destroy the balance... We cannot predict the effects.

@ NEMA: you're too relistic... let the people dream

[nemafakei]

Time travel is possible, Davidu, just not feasible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox helps explain.

You need to make journeys approaching the speed of light for it to make a difference.

[Acriku]

I'm always confused when people say there is a balance to the Universe and other possible universes. Who says there has to be a balance?

[stefanhendriks]

Life is all about balance. Good example is mother nature ;)

I am not entirely sure how to read 'if you control gravity you control time'. Ie, gravity is due planets and such. While in outer space you don't have 'gravity' therefor in this theory you cannot control time in outer space...?

I do wonder about time though. I have heard of a theory of 'no-time'. Time does not exist only in our minds and lives to make things more organized and get a structure into our lives. Which is ofcourse perfectly ok. Also, the subject 'time' is strange when you talk about the 'beginning' of the universe and all life, since 'they' say that there was 'no time in the beginning'. So, if there was no time, thus no 'movement' , nothing could have happened, or started life at all :)

Great confusing subject i'd say, i think Nema explained it very well... we travel in time, 60 minutes per hour ;)

[gunner154]

I think teleportation would be a lot more possible. I had this idea about using E=mc^2 to teleport things... converting mass to energy and back again, but imagine Philadelphia Experiment 2, with people appearing in grotesque... nevermind.

I could not understand much of the twin paradox article. Does relativity require a lot of Math?

[Acriku]

Life is all about balance. Good example is mother nature ;)

I am not entirely sure how to read 'if you control gravity you control time'. Ie, gravity is due planets and such. While in outer space you don't have 'gravity' therefor in this theory you cannot control time in outer space...?

I do wonder about time though. I have heard of a theory of 'no-time'. Time does not exist only in our minds and lives to make things more organized and get a structure into our lives. Which is ofcourse perfectly ok. Also, the subject 'time' is strange when you talk about the 'beginning' of the universe and all life, since 'they' say that there was 'no time in the beginning'. So, if there was no time, thus no 'movement' , nothing could have happened, or started life at all :)

I haven't noticed a pattern of balance in nature, but maybe I'm wrong. Even so, I don't think it's okay to say that the entire universe requires a balance (and to go even further, if that balance is disrupted the universe breaks down).

What I understand of 'the beginning,' all matter was condensed to a singularity so in theory there was time in that singularity because there was space. I could be totally wrong, though.

[TMA_1]

I believe it is pretty much impossible for mankind to travel into the future. I may not know a lot about science, but I have studied the basics and am interested in the various celestial sciences. First of all the constant of the speed of light would need to be distorted in order for something to go faster than the said constant. Also the faster matter goes, the denser it gets, and once matter approaches the speed of light it will convert into energy. I do not think that human bodies can withstand these kinds of extremes. In my opinion it is pretty much inpossible, unless we find some extremely exotic way to manipulate the constant, or find ways past it. You never know, but I doubt it.

correct me if I am wrong anybody, but arent there any of you guys who agree that it is pretty much impossible?

[Edric O]

Actually, travelling into the future is very much possible; all you need to do is achieve a very high speed (= a speed that is a significant fraction of the speed of light) relative to the part of the universe in whose future you plan to travel. If you want to travel into the Earth's future, you need to achieve a very high speed relative to the Earth. As you pick up speed, time begins to run slower for you than it does for the Earth. At a certain speed X, for example (which is lower than the speed of light, and which can be precisely calculated with the proper formulas), one minute of your time would pass for every century of Earth time. Thus, it would take you 10 minutes to travel a thousand years into the Earth's future.

The catch, of course, is that you can never go back. Travel into the past is impossible, since it violates causality and results in impossible paradoxes. (case in point: What happens if you go back in time and kill your grandfather before your parents were born?)

[Edric O]

Once we have the technology to build ships that can go fast enough, there will probably be quite a few people willing to leave their old lives behind and travel into the future. Some of them will be explorers, driven by sheer wonder, untamed curiosity and mild insanity. Others will be the kind of people who have nothing to lose. People diagnosed with a terminal illness, for example. They could travel into the future hoping that a cure for their illness will exist by the time they arrive. But also criminals who might want to escape the law (though their criminal knowledge and skills will of course be obsolete in the future they are travelling to).

Edit: You know, that could make a great sci-fi scenario, and one of the few instances of a realistic time travel story: A group of people from the near future, each with his/her own reasons for time travel (a dreaming explorer, a person with a terminal illness, a criminal on the run, etc.) going into the far future, and finding incredible things there.

[TMA_1]

I personally dont think the human body can withstand those extremes. To increase your mass so drastically and radically alter it back to its original state while calculating how long such speeds need to be maintained while at the same time watching the variables of movement and speed and so on... just seems impossible to me. I think it is a pipe dream and people say it is possible because it is remotely possible. That doesnt mean it iwll ever happen, I personally dont think it will.

[Tako]

Also, the subject 'time' is strange when you talk about the 'beginning' of the universe and all life, since 'they' say that there was 'no time in the beginning'. So, if there was no time, thus no 'movement' , nothing could have happened, or started life at all :)

Great confusing subject i'd say, i think Nema explained it very well... we travel in time, 60 minutes per hour ;)

following was translated from the duch translation of "rage of a demon king" by R. E. Feist

'Time is Time' said Dominicus 'Time marks the passing of events"

'no' Nakur stated 'people mark the passing of events, time just is'

'' but wat is it? time prevents evreyting from happening at the same time'

-end-

so at the beginning there was no time and thus no passing of events evreyting happend at the same time, then the universe changed (or God did wathever you prefer is not at debate here)and time was created

so no time should not mean nothing but actually everything from this point of vieuw (I like this idea)

[Dude_Doc]

Yes, and you can use such relativistic effects to travel into the future. You cannot, however, travel into the past.

It depends. If we can create wormholes, speed up one of the ends/entrances to the speed of light, we could travel to the past and to the future. However, indeed we could not travel to a time in which the wormholes was not yet created.

You make MASS disapear from one univerce - NOW and appear into another universe - THEN.

It would be a paradox. It would destroy the balance.

Technically, "mass" is already "dissapeareing" - in the form of black holes. And besides this, no one really knows how big the universe is - or if it "ends" somewhere. Of course, much points in the direction of a universe with "finite mass" - but just like the alien question - much points that there are thousands of alien civilizations in our galaxy alone - but no one really know.

I am not entirely sure how to read 'if you control gravity you control time'.

What I meant was that the bigger gravity becomes, the slower time passes. The greatest gravitational force we know of yet is that of a black hole, in which time literally stops. The real "mind_uck" about this is that the universe "outside" could have ended long ago.

Anyway, if one could harness the power of gravity, one could also slow down time. I think it is best to think in the same route as the movie "The Time Machine", in which the world around is moving considerably faster than inside the bubble.

Ie, gravity is due planets and such. While in outer space you don't have 'gravity' therefor in this theory you cannot control time in outer space...?

Yes, gravity is because of planets and other interstellar objects, but no one knows how it works. Why are rocks "attracted" to one another? Anyways, in space, time does still move forward. What I meant was that you must have a "gravity device" in order to slow down time. And this device must harness the gravitational power of probably billions of planets to have a considerable difference. And then there are also the risk of a black hole.

I do wonder about time though. I have heard of a theory of 'no-time'. Time does not exist only in our minds and lives to make things more organized and get a structure into our lives.

Well, of course there are questions of what time really is. I think the global perspective of time is that things are moving forward. Something is always happening. Without time, everything would freeze. Then there can, like you said, be personal time, biological time (our age, etc), "tea-time" :) etc...

Also, the subject 'time' is strange when you talk about the 'beginning' of the universe and all life, since 'they' say that there was 'no time in the beginning'. So, if there was no time, thus no 'movement' , nothing could have happened, or started life at all

I think the "M-theory", a recent "mother theory" about different theories of super-strings, the smallest "thing" that exists, also explains that there must have been time before the universe. In either case, there must have been time before the universe, because even if the universe was created by chance, chance can only exist if time exists, because it must have "time to occur".

I think teleportation would be a lot more possible. I had this idea about using E=mc^2 to teleport things... converting mass to energy and back again, but imagine Philadelphia Experiment 2, with people appearing in grotesque... nevermind.

Oh, not only the Philadelphia Experiment. How can you be sure that it will be "you" on the other side, and not a replica of you, with the same thoughts and feelings you had before the teleportation?

Also the faster matter goes, the denser it gets, and once matter approaches the speed of light it will convert into energy.

But in theory, we could never achieve a speed fast enough. Energy is matter too, and the more energy there is, the heavier the ship will get, thus requiring more energy.

The catch, of course, is that you can never go back. Travel into the past is impossible, since it violates causality and results in impossible paradoxes.

Once again, you could travel to the past through a wormhole, in matter of seconds. The question is how we would be able to achieve such a "device".

(case in point: What happens if you go back in time and kill your grandfather before your parents were born?)

Not necessarily. What if a new universe will be created if you change this one? What if every action we make is one of unlimited actions, only reflected once for each universe? If this is true, travelling back in time could be possible.

Then there is the question if you really wanted to kill your grandparents. If there, after all, is a universal "law" that forbids the changing of past events, then maybe that "law" would prohibit us from changing anythin? Although, that would mean no additional changes to space too...

And, even if we travel back in this universe, and all actions taken "then" will result in this universe, who says the paradoxes will occur? Time is always moving forward, so if we go back in time - maybe we're only experiencing a change of place? What is there to point out that "this is the past"?

Again, we can not know until we test it :) ...

People diagnosed with a terminal illness, for example. They could travel into the future hoping that a cure for their illness will exist by the time they arrive. But also criminals who might want to escape the law (though their criminal knowledge and skills will of course be obsolete in the future they are travelling to).

Who said that a time-travelling device would be open for the public? Maybe a government already has such a device in it's possesion - we wouldn't know (although, such device must probably be from another planet - like that TV-series they air some time ago).

Ever wondered why Miscrosoft is so successful? :D

[nemafakei]

Do remember, TMA, that there is no fixed aether. Therefore, you do not experience the effects of high-speed travel that you are observed to suffer. Relative to your own inertial frame, you are not moving at close to the speed of light and are therefore not experiencing distortions of space or mass. As far as you're concerned, it's the people you left behind who are experiencing those effects.

I agree that it may turn out to be infeasible.

Regarding gravity, it's currently hot controversy scientifically whether you can use gravity to get around the laws of the universe (without technically exceeding the speed of light) by distorting space.

[Davidu]

@American Cyborg: mass is not dissapearing in black holes. These matter is disassembled into it's most primitive building blocks and "stashed" together. Why do you think black holes have such a huge gravity force? They attract light, radio waves... everything - because they have a huge mass concentrated into a small volume and therefore a huge gravity force. Mass is not dissapearing

OOC: it's great such threads are not dead, keep it up people  ;)

[Caid Ivik]

If the universe is in cycles of collapses and expansions, then a travel to future would give a hope to make it trough one cataclysm. Thus we not only attain potential eternity, but also we travel to a "past", as we are on a "previous" part of the timeline. But anyway, I am speculating; collapse of universe means that all matter and energy is involved in it, and it would be hard to use some other ethereal energies to build a timeship...

[nemafakei]

Yes, gunner, relativity does require a lot of mathematics. SR (using 4-vectors) can be found on syllabuses for second year mathematics undergraduates.

"But in theory, we could never achieve a speed fast enough. Energy is matter too, and the more energy there is, the heavier the ship will get, thus requiring more energy."

That isn't the reason. The reason is that 30mph + 30mph does not equal 60mph. It is very slightly less. It all hinges on  a factor called gamma, where γ = 1 - v

[GUNWOUNDS]

Why does there have to be time for there to be nothing?

[Edric O]

Why does there have to be time for there to be nothing?  IF you quarantined some void of space inside an imaginary box somewhere in deep space and it was never disturbed.... no particles present, no atomic decay, no background radiation, no entities moving nearby or invading the box, no light or gamma rays passing through.... would "time" be existing inside that box?

The only way i know how to define "time" is by how common physicists define how to measure it...  1 second = X amount of radioactive particles given off by cesium atomic decay.  Any other perception of time is merely "before" and "after" imaginary labels we humans put on things to help us perceive things.  Its rather arbitrary.

We are measuring time by one particle moving away from another particle.  So we define "time" as "work" or "movement"  .. if things stood still like they do at absolute zero would we be able to tell time or perceive it?  This goes back to my qurantined void of space.... if no movement or work or anything is existing in that void... is there any time there?  Does time really exist or are we just using "time" as another name for "that which moves" or "that which works"?  Think about it... we even think of time as moving.. we say time "passes"....but the ONLY things "moving"  is ourselves and everything around us such as light, electrons, planets, enzymes in our bodies, DNA strands in our bodies, etc, etc....  Seems to me that time really doesnt exist and that we are just using a synonym for "movement of all particles".... from subatomic particles to large celestial bodies.  If so then time really doesnt exist and all the "was there time before the universe" arguments are pointless.

Time itself exists even if you can't measure it, for the same reason space exists even if you can't measure it. In order to measure space (in other words, distance) you need at least two particles as reference points. In that empty box of yours, there are no particles, and therefore neither space nor time can be measured. But space still exists within it, and so does time.

Remember that there is no special difference between space and time. If some property applies to space, then there must be a reference frame in which that property also applies to time.

You say that movement is real and time is just an illusion. In fact, it is the other way around. Movement is the illusion. The Universe can be seen as a static 4-dimensional complex structure. What we perceive as "movement" or "change" is due to the fact that our "present time" is a 3-dimensional slice of the 4D universe.

(of course, this assumes a fully deterministic Universe, thus ignoring quantum theory, and modern physics has speculated that the Universe may have many more than just 4 dimensions; but my above explanation is still useful, though simplistic)

[GUNWOUNDS]

ah i see... sorta like if you take a deck of index cards and draw a cartoon frame by frame.. and then flip thru them really fast... it gives the illusion of movement.  Interesting.

[Acriku]

Once we have the technology to build ships that can go fast enough, there will probably be quite a few people willing to leave their old lives behind and travel into the future. Some of them will be explorers, driven by sheer wonder, untamed curiosity and mild insanity. Others will be the kind of people who have nothing to lose. People diagnosed with a terminal illness, for example. They could travel into the future hoping that a cure for their illness will exist by the time they arrive. But also criminals who might want to escape the law (though their criminal knowledge and skills will of course be obsolete in the future they are travelling to).

Edit: You know, that could make a great sci-fi scenario, and one of the few instances of a realistic time travel story: A group of people from the near future, each with his/her own reasons for time travel (a dreaming explorer, a person with a terminal illness, a criminal on the run, etc.) going into the far future, and finding incredible things there.

There is a certain problem with ships that go fast enough - we'd have to find some material impervious to getting hit by dust and rock particles in space (exponentially more harmful as the ship approaches the speed of light). So, speed is not the only limitation, durability of the ship's material is as well.

You're onto something fantastic with your scenario. Kind of reminds me of Pitch Black (passengers are aboard a spaceship with their own motives for being there [e.g. a couple people were on a religious quest to Helios Prime; a couple were hitching a ride to collect a bounty on a criminal aboard] crashland on a planet and discover incredible things on the planet).