Is emperor balanced ?

[Schorpie]

After playing emperor for a few years... and after I finally agreed that this was/is one of the best games i ever played, I asked myself:

Why do I like this game so much ?

> Good graphics & perfect gameplay & very good balance.. imo

but is this game really good balanced ??

Aren't gunships overpowered vs ordos ?

Aren't air drones to good ?

Isn't the easy combination of mino's & sardaukar overpowered ?

Isn't the hark rush overpowered ?

...

is this game balanced.. ?

[slaphapy]

I think it is. but it kind of depends on player skills, and in team games, the ability to work together.  as for gunships, they are countered by certain things, i mean they can be overpowering if you simply dont make any defense against them.  or if you dont keep the other person from being able to make them.  drones are kind of powerful, but also easily countered (compared to what they were before some of the patches- they could out run AA missles!)

[GUNWOUNDS]

After playing emperor for a few years... and after I finally agreed that this was/is one of the best games i ever played, I asked myself:

Why do I like this game so much ?

> Good graphics & perfect gameplay & very good balance.. imo

but is this game really good balanced ??

Aren't gunships overpowered vs ordos ?

Aren't air drones to good ?

Isn't the easy combination of mino's & sardaukar overpowered ?

Isn't the hark rush overpowered ?

...

is this game balanced.. ?

gunships do own ordos UNLESS the ordos player is better than the hark player.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i would also like to say that it seems from my experience that ordos weaponry seems highly suited to killing atr... and hark weaponry seems highly suited to killing ordos.

[jeff2429]

The game to me balances out pretty well but I think hark has a slight advantage against ordos and atr.  Think about how the houses balance out without subs though.  Hark losing sard elite defense against adv carry pick-ups but then it can make the missle tank.  Atr also losing the elite defense against shielded units and dev drops but it can still make geese and kindjal.  Ordos playing against hark without subs would be pretty fricken hard.  They would definetly need mortor and have no time for apcs in aa men, but also need cobra but then gunships can take out the base and the cobras.

Just overall it's pretty damb good to me.

[GUNWOUNDS]

1.) so i assume you are agreeing with what i said above then jeff?

2.) also what do you think of my paper rock scissors comparison?

3.) Do you think atr is the true counter in my rock paper scissors comparison above?

[jeff2429]

Yea I agreewith the rock, paper, scissors. Though I also think that the paper is pretty damb thick in come cases for the paper to cut.  I believe atr fills the shoes plenty, but hark just has just as good of shoes.

:O

I still think hark has a bit of an advantage over atr but atr is the best suited to kill hark more than ordos.  Most ordos combos are not difficult at all for hark to counter but atreides does serve up more of a challenge.

[alchemi2]

i think part of the long term appeal of emperor is the fact that game play is so well balanced in comparison to many other rts games.

if you ignore subhouses then each house can own the other equally if used correctly with the right stratergy to counter what your opponents doing.

Ordos can counter Hark airpower not only with aa, pods and apcs but by destroying spice production with it's hit and run abilities.

Atr can stop Dev drops with drones and mongooses.

I think the great appeal and lasting lure of emperor is that the game play does for the main part rely on the players own skill and ability to adapt.

I've lost games to players who i've out produced on units and spice but their micro skills in battle and clever stratergy have won them the day.

[GUNWOUNDS]

what you say is true alchemi.. but the problem is that some of the stuff you say is easier said than done.

[jeff2429]

Its sorta like the contaminator and the IX projectors.... theoretically these units and their strategies should rock.... but in real life experiments... they fail miserably. 

I remember a game me and spaze vs kalony and sard where I used projectors.  I had 10 minos in a second and easy stoped whatever came at me.  But the bo I did to achieve them so quick ran my money dry long and drones got me and kal killed spaze.  Though my projectors got picked off due to lack of cover. 

But what I'm getting at is that if I get my normal army first then go for projectors, I think it pretty much would rule.

[GUNWOUNDS]

well the projections are killed too easily... one hit and they die.. and not only that... but if you make 50 projections from one projector... and a gunship or fedykin kills the projector.... all 50 projections will disappear....

what i am trying to say is that its too much money spent on something that can be lost in seconds.

[GUNWOUNDS]

jeff stop minimizing so i can enter your game.

[jeff2429]

I wasn't talkin about one projecter but like a group of 15.  In 3 clicks I can have 45 free and fast sards.  If you are hark or ordos with out heavy units ur pretty screwed.  I can fit them in there early enough where you don't have feds or gunships.

They are very useful vs elite players cause I can get fake lasers quick and go kill your laser hoard bothering my army in 10 seconds.

You just mentioned projecters so I though I would add my opinion about them.

[nemafakei]

"After playing emperor for a few years"

Perhaps it's being taken as read, but I'd like to point out that you're damned lucky if you can make a game which takes communities years to find real imbalances. Given that testers probably don't have years or the size of community that released games have, Emperor's pretty reasonable as far as balance goes.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Jeff....ok but you are contradicting yourself here.... and some of your math is incorrect.

the contradiction is that you claim you can get them fast before planes or other things etc..... but you said preivously that going projectors early made you broke and kalony beat you.

[GUNWOUNDS]

"After playing emperor for a few years"

Perhaps it's being taken as read, but I'd like to point out that you're damned lucky if you can make a game which takes communities years to find real imbalances. Given that testers probably don't have years or the size of community that released games have, Emperor's pretty reasonable as far as balance goes.

well said nema... like i said... you dont really notice the imbalances until you reach the "master" level of play.  Novices really cannot see the imbalances.

[jeff2429]

Well as I see it maybe fac ref bar ref ix which is quicker then planes.  My other bo was fac ref ix bar which was not good.  I had to stop saws for a long time.  Yea scouts would screw me but I could make a few of my own then remake the projection.  I'll try against you sometime and we can see how it goes. :)

[GUNWOUNDS]

we could mess with that some... might be fun.. but i think you will end up with your same conclusion about the infiltrators.  I quote:  "This is no good for reg games"  ;D

[alchemi2]

I think the great appeal and lasting lure of emperor is that the game play does for the main part rely on the players own skill and ability to adapt.

This was my main point and i belive you are agreeing with it Guns. What i'm saying is each house can defend/attack against each other equally dependant on the players skill level.

Elite players should be master of all houses so therefore if your playing an equal level elite player you would both use Hark?

I generally play 2vs2 or  more games and am not even near being elite so i do probably have a different persective, also we all know that hardly anyone plays without subhouses these days.

[GUNWOUNDS]

yep i agree... well i think this topic has been cooked like a well done steak.

[erjin999]

I'm a veggie, carry on  ;)

[clam74]

i think the balance would be much better if ordos had a good aa turret or even a regular good ground turret , in wich case u would actually be ablt to perform early hit and runs with ordos without having to worry about how ur gonna get pounded in ur base.

Jeff , in ordoer for projector to be effective u need alot of them (10+) and there is no way u can amake 10 projectors b4 a good hark has ships.  the only person i ever remember using mass projections is emprworm , and it worked very well but the oponents skill level wasn't as great as some of the people that play now so i'm not sure how that would work

[KALONY]

yeah,  ordos would be better if they had turrets...or my wish would be to have cheaper and faster (production and walking) mortars without upgrading. that would be enough imo, to kill hark.

KALONY

[pearlmen]

I hope  air units price need some change for helping ordos air defending

airdrone....about 1000 cost(atr orni price  800)

gunship...about 1200(more I hope last 4th missile fix bug)

AA mine...about 300~400(really need some reduce its price)

then could be no need ordos has air-targeting turret ::)

[desertway]

I am in agreemenet that hark has the advantage in an all equal skill level game. 1 thing no on emetioned about elite players playing together...map positions. By no means do I consider myself an elite player, but I do think I'm pretty good. When playing games with fairly equal skill llevels on both sides, the deciding factor lately tends to be map positions. IMO this is a more exploitable advantage than the slight hark advantage. In a 2 on 2, say your in the far right corner(fishers) and your partner is on the bottom rock. Now say 1 of your enemies is right between you. This is almost instant death for people of the same skill level. You have 2 decent size entrances in which the enemies can attack. Unless your playing against someone better than you...the guy between you shouldn't last very long at all. The problem seems to come in to "skill level". While the teams may be equal, there is always a best player on each team. If that player isn't the one being sandwiched, you may find your own base being overrun to get you to fall back and protect yourself. If the better person is the one being sandwiched, kiss the game good bye. At that point if you don't have alot of skills as the guy not under haevy attack, your team is dead. Again this is just my opinion.