Ukraine Revolution

[Anathema]

Edric, unless you're as well informed on Ukranian politics as an Ukranian citizen, I'd advise you to stop with your black and white generalisations regarding their politicians.

Undoubtedly Yushchenko would be best for Ukraine. For one thing, he didn't commit election fraud. I also heard he has done some pretty good things while he was head of the national bank. If I lived in Ukraine my choice would be Yushchenko any day.

[Edric O]

Edric, unless you're as well informed on Ukranian politics as an Ukranian citizen, I'd advise you to stop with your black and white generalisations regarding their politicians.

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you were an Ukrainian citizen. ::)

Besides, "generalising" would be saying that one guy is great, excellent and wonderful, while the other is an evil bastard. I said no such thing. I only mentioned the fact that they're both corrupt oligarchs, which is a pretty well-known truth.

Undoubtedly Yushchenko would be best for Ukraine. For one thing, he didn't commit election fraud. I also heard he has done some pretty good things while he was head of the national bank. If I lived in Ukraine my choice would be Yushchenko any day.

Heh, you don't know much about Eastern European politics, do you? Everyone commits election fraud around here. Believe me, if Yushchenko wins, you'll be hearing about his fraud at the next elections.

[Anathema]

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you were an Ukrainian citizen. ::)

You know, I wasn't aware of that either until you brougt that up.

Besides, "generalising" would be saying that one guy is great, excellent and wonderful, while the other is an evil bastard. I said no such thing. I only mentioned the fact that they're both corrupt oligarchs, which is a pretty well-known truth.

Generalising would be saying that an apple and an orange are both the same, without any feeling for nuance. Also I didn't know Yushchenko was ever seriously accused of corruption. And if it's a well known "truth" that he's corrupt, why how did he get people to vote en masse for him without controlling most of the media like say, Yanukovych?

Eastern European politics...Everyone commits election fraud around here

Now there's a generalisation if I ever saw one.

Believe me, if Yushchenko wins, you'll be hearing about his fraud at the next elections.

Well why didn't you say you could look into the future? Or know about his corruption while nobody else did? No point in arguing with somebody who knows everything, is there?

[Edric O]

Is there some particular reason why you're acting all hostile and pissed off today, Anathema?

Generalising would be saying that an apple and an orange are both the same, without any feeling for nuance.

Oh, there's plenty of nuance between Yushchenko and Yanukovych - I think I specifically mentioned it, actually. They serve different foreign interests.

And, for the record, an apple and an orange have a million things in common. They are both fruit, for one thing.

Now there's a generalisation if I ever saw one.

...and an unfortunetaly true generalisation.

Well why didn't you say you could look into the future? Or know about his corruption while nobody else did? No point in arguing with somebody who knows everything, is there?

All I've done was to state my opinion. I wasn't aware that this is a crime - and, by the way, I'm still curious to find out what made you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning (you certainly don't have any axe to grind with me, so this sudden gratuitous hostility of yours is very puzzling).

[SpiceGuid]

i am with Edric O, the candidates come from the same political culture.

so Yushchenko may be more legitimate but he is not a real alternative :(

[VigilVirus]

Could someone point me in the direction of a place where I could find out SPECIFIC fraud election details can be found? Did they even mention any? Until I actually hear more info on this I refuse to even consider the "he's a cheater!" bullshit.

I also agree that Ukraine should just be assimilated back into Russia. It has some good farm land.

[SurlyPIG]

Is there any promising peaceful recourse for dissatisfied Ukranians?

Bah, people are giving this situation far more importance than it deserves. The actual policies of the two candidates are very similar (sounds familiar, doesn't it?). The only real difference is that one supports the interests of Western corporations, while the other supports the interests of the Russian government. Either way, the Ukrainian people lose.

Of course, it's understandable that the Ukrainian people are sick and tired of their old masters, and took the only choice given to them in these elections - a new set of masters. But if they hope for some improvement in their lives, they're going to be very dissapointed...

A very typical Communist statement.  Acrimony towards all other political views with no actual regard for democracy.

Don't you find it the least bit disturbing that Ukranian democracy may have been externally compromised?  Heck, you've made posts to that effect regarding the same thing occurring in South America at the hands of the CIA.  I wonder why this would be any different...oh thats right its not socialists being targeted so it doesn't matter. ::)

BTW Anathema is merely matching your sarcasm.

[Davidu]

I just heard on TV that the ukrainean revoultion started to spred, or, at least, cause unrests in Belarus as well. Some bielorussians even came to Kiev to support Yushchenko.

COme on people... WTF? Don't start WWIII on this, ok?

[thomas]

oh shit :-[ :-

[Anathema]

You did far more then just posting your opinion Edric. You accused Yushchenko of being corrupt without any proof whatsoever. That goes beyond what can simply be called "opinion"- it's propaganda.

Davidu: The Bellarussians have every right to be unruly. If you think there's a lot of shit being tossed around in Ukraine, take a look at the government of Belarus- it's a dinosaur, a relic from the Soviet age where you can't do or say shit without the government "regulating" your business. It's a pretty sad thing a lot of people here wish that kind of regime to the Russians and Ukrainians as well ::)

[Caid Ivik]

However, I am also very interested who financed all this mess Juscenko done. This is not a popular unrest, but an organized overthrow. Janukovyc could be supported by Russians, but Juscenko has behind himself most possibly ukrainian mafians, what else could it be?

[Anathema]

I don't know why financed his campaign, but he does have friends in the banking world. In all the news coverage about Ukraine I have never heard a thing about maffia connections so that does sound more plausible.

Also, an overthrow it may be, a violent one even but I can't bring myself to condemn it if the majority of the people are the one doing it.

[Caid Ivik]

You know, in less developed countries, borders between mafia and normal business fade easily...

[nemafakei]

"Acrimony towards all other political views with no actual regard for democracy.

Don't you find it the least bit disturbing that Ukranian democracy may have been externally compromised?"

It may be that Edric's acrimony is because he sees that democracy is being compromised externally - in that both sides are supposedly working for the benefit of respective external entities.

[Andrew]

I think democracy is working pretty good in Ukraine. The people are protesting, which is good. Although I do not like how Canada and the US and other countries talked about how they didn't like the outcome.

What proof of corruption has surfaced? That the exit polls showed the pro western guy winning?

If that were true, then John Kerry would be president of USA and Steven Harper would be Prime Minister of Canada. Polls and statistics don't work in politics.

[nemafakei]

Ridiculously high turnout in government strongholds, significantly greater than observed by inspectors, organised collections of ballots by employers, and so forth.

[Edric O]

Is there any promising peaceful recourse for dissatisfied Ukranians?

The Supreme Court is looking into the allegations of vote fraud right now.

A very typical Communist statement. Acrimony towards all other political views with no actual regard for democracy.

News flash: If you support a certain political view, that means you generally dislike other political views. So of course I'm hostile towards Yushchenko and Yanukovych. What would you expect me to say? "Yay, yay, hurrah for the capitalists"?

As for democracy, tell me, Ace, have you been around here when I was defending democratic principles from Emprworm's "republic" bullshit? Have you read any of the hundreds of posts where I explained why democracy is always superior to dictatorship in terms of benefitting the people? Do you pay any attention to my views at all, or just see what you want to see? Hell, I've been sometimes criticized for advocating too much democracy. So your comment is far, far off mark. I suggest you should try to get rid of some of those stereotypes you seem to be carrying around.

Don't you find it the least bit disturbing that Ukranian democracy may have been externally compromised?

I'm more worried when democracies are internally destroyed. And so far, that doesn't seem to be happening in the Ukraine. All those people on the streets are proof that democracy is still very much alive and kicking.

Heck, you've made posts to that effect regarding the same thing occurring in South America at the hands of the CIA. I wonder why this would be any different... oh thats right its not socialists being targeted so it doesn't matter. ::)

I've made posts about CIA-sponsored coups in South America. So far, there is no coup in the Ukraine.

Let me get one thing straight, Ace: I am not impartial and never claimed to be. I strongly support socialism, communism, democracy, human rights, social justice, personal freedom, and so on. I will naturally be hostile to politicians who oppose some or all of those things. And I will not tone down my criticism to accomodate certain self-righteous whiners who can't stand it when I don't see things their way.

[Edric O]

You did far more then just posting your opinion Edric. You accused Yushchenko of being corrupt without any proof whatsoever. That goes beyond what can simply be called "opinion"- it's propaganda.

prop

[Anathema]

Caid's post was merely a speculation, and one I don't find very convincing. I asked for proof, wich you obviously don't have to back up your claim.

[Caid Ivik]

Surely, it's just a speculation. But based on inductive logic, as Juscenko's actions (like self-proclamation in parliament, or now his calling against people Doneck that they are "separatists") aren't honorable as well. Elections in Ukraine were one big chaos, and I don't understand how one candidate was helping it to order...

[Davidu]

The east is trying to separate.

It's all turning out to the borders 100 years ago, Austrian Empire, German Empire, Russia.

The cultural developed west against the backwards east.

[Caid Ivik]

Halic belongs to Poland, originally. We will take back Ruthenia, north could be taken by Belarus. And Donbas can be free on its way to the most culturally advanced country, Russia... Perhaps our imperialist spirit is somewhere yet. But seriously, can't we see a chance here? Russia will take what its her, sooner or later. But for example Lvov is catholic and polish, why should they remain under eastern rule? They can enter EU like Eastern Germany, without those bureaucratic horrors like Nice Threaty.

[Davidu]

Caid, this is the worst moment, ethically speaking, to do that.

Yeah, and we'll take Northern Bucovina and Bugeac and the Serpents' island.

On the other hand, it would be an opportunity too good too miss.

[Davidu]

I say just let the things to cool down and then, the guys over there should want to unite back with us. That's the right way.

[K4^Raimund]

It's not possible! After 14 years those people want to be ruled by the Red! We need to help those poor people! "Bread and circus" as the Romans would have said... >:(