the Curse of the One Ring.

[TMA_1]

I have realized after reading how dangerous the curse of the one ring is if you actually touch it or wear it.

For instance when frodo wakes up in the homely house at imladris, gandalf talks to him about many things, but near the end of it before he is told to rest again gandalf see's something. Though only somebody with the power of one like a Maiar could see it, it is still visible slightly that frodo still was partially in the shadow world after wearing the ring, as well as being stabbed by the morgul blade. It says specifically though that it is largely because of the ring itself. He goes on to explain that he is concerned about frodo's existance, and what would happen to him in the far future. It seems to me to infer the fact that if and when he died, he would be unable to leave the world as those hobbits and humans have the capability to (unlike dwarves who by Aule are given the gift of entering into the halls of waiting in a place vaguely similar to where the elves go after they die).  See Gandalf says while thinking to himself before frodo goes back to sleep before the council that frodo is still partially in the shadow world because of the ring, and though it is so small and infintismal that he would not be able to leave the world because of that small speck of him that is still in the shadow world. He would still be cursed to stay upon the earth until obliterated like the wraiths. Though he did not nearly have enough damage as to become a wraith while living, like gollum he would never be able to leave the circles of the earth because of this curse.

Also in the Two Towers gandalf says that boromir was actually pitied by him because of the great temptation, and that he wasent angry at the tempting of boromir but acutally sad. He said that he was thankful though that he never touched the ring, which is my assumption that he would have had the same problem, because a very very small speck of him would be in the shadow world and that would make him unable to leave the circles of earth.

many places make small references to this, and it is so apparent to me in the end when frodo is taken to Valinor as a gift to the elves so taht he may not wither away in the shadow world, but wait in peace till the breaking and refounding of the earth by Iluvatar. Not only this but it says that Bilbo went to valinor as well, and even in the apendix it says that Samwise Gamgee is said to have gone to valinor as well near the end of his life, which is affirmed by what frodo tells him when frodo leaves that they might yet meet again. All the ring bearers went to valinor and for this exact purpose of mercy! because if they would have stayed, no matter how msall it was the shadow of the curse of the ring would have damned him.

If he would have stayed as well as the other ring bearers, they would have been cursed to be partially no matter how small to be in the shadow world, apart of their "soul" if you can say that would have been unable to leave the circles because of the taint, which galadriel talks about as well.

I talked about this to one of my friends who probably knows more about the Lord of the Rings series than anybody else I know. He has read everything about middle earth, The History of Middle Earth, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, the Silmarillion and all the others. He said that he was blown away by this idea and totally agreed with me. WIth that and some evidance that I will gladly post on this thread in a bit, I think that this idea has al ot of merit, does anybody see this at all? Others who i have talked to have.

[bob_fox]

Wow! They didn't bring this out in any of the movies (or did they?). I can't remember the first book that well.

[Razorox]

*looks for nerd smilie* now where did it go...  ;)

[Wolf]

So, a little piece of you always rests in the shadow world, or where-ever, if you wear the ring even once? And this is permanent?

This might explain Sauren's seemingly-limitless power -- the harvesting of souls, if you will. It also explains why he's not really corporeal, but ephemeral.

[Apollyon]

Ephemeral? He always seemes quite long-lived. :P

[TMA_1]

yeah he seems ephemeral because (this is my opinion) before he made the ring he was a pretty powerful Maia. He was the "captain" of sorts to Morgoth and recieved much power from him and still was dutiful to him long after Morgoth was sent into the void in his second taming.

After that and before his body of light was destroyed, he tricked the growing decadent people of numenor. He was able with his beauty and false wisdom to trick the people into worshipping MOrgoth and the great mountain of Iluvatar was eventually set off limits, but as you know a few remnants of the "faithful" of numenor broke off right before the numenorian king tried to invade Valinor. They sailed near to the gulf of lune and settled there following the line of kings.

anyways as I was saying after the destruction of the numenorians and the bending of the path to valinor, Sauron's body of light was destroyed and he no longer had that body and for a long time was "naked", physically. He retook form and then tricked the Eregion silvan elves into helping him build rings, and he took the knowledge of the great eregion smiths and built his own.

it says in the books that he had to place a substansial amount of his own essense into the ring, but when he did and wore the ring, it actually amplified his powers and he grew even more pwoerful than before.

once he lost the ring though a great amount of him and his power was lost, though not totally destroyed because the ring was not destroyed. So he went into Greenwood and tainted itand it turned into Mirkwood.

THat is why he was so ephemeral, because for awhile he had no body and had to regain his strength, but still once he was incarnated as the evil eye, he still had part of him missing because the ring was not with him.

so I totally see waht you mean. what do you guys think of this?

by the way lets change this thread into insights that we have in the LOTR and otherwise TOlkienish universe. so that you can post anything you find interesting or important in the series of books, kinda like what i posted at the start of the page, that way we can spark more discussions. :)

[Hawat]

Sauron's body of light was destroyed and he no longer had that body and for a long time was "naked", physically.

The way you express it,it somehows reminds of the fall of mankind in the bible.  Tolkien draws allusions from many popular "epics".

[TMA_1]

lol yeah he says he hates allegory, yet in the note in the prologue he says that he took portions from the bible like the fall of satan and his angels. I always thought that it was a form of allegory to do that... lol oh well he knows what he is doing, and is a genius at it and man I respect him a lot. Especailly on spiritual matters. He said he drew a lot out of mythology, but tried to keep his christian faith out of it as he thought it would be almost blasphamous to put important docterns into his fictions and treat them almost like myth.

[Hawat]

I would expect nothing less from a very strict catholic  ;)

But i never understood why he neglected the allusions, though there are many obvious. The whole theme about "the one ring" e.g. seems to be similar to the "Nibelungen" Saga, were a ring also plays an important role.

[NHJ BV]

True; Tolkien got a great deal of his inspiration out of the Northern mythology.

It's an interesting insight, and definately deals with why Frodo was allowed into Valinor.

I just re-read LotR again, and I'm now busy reading the Appendices. I especialy found the history of Gondor very interesting, and the Aragorn & Arwen tale. Almost every bit on Arwen in the movie is taken from that small part in the Appendices :)

[Lord J]

  Something not mentioned in the book, but a major part of the movie, when Boromir cuts his finger on the sword of Aragorn.

  My mom was the first to come up with the theory, I really like the idea, and I want to run it by you guys.

  The sword was used to cut the ring from Sauron's hand, and was stained with the ichor-like blood of Sauron in the process.  When Boromir cuts his finger on the blade, can it be said that he is poisoned by the blood, the very essance of Sauron?

  Obviously, if the Fellowship had followed Frodo all the way to Mordor, everyone would have wanted the Ring, perhaps to the point of violence, especially the Men, Elf and Dwarf.  But perhaps Boromir's almost pre-emptive strike was pushed by the poison released in him from the cut by Aragorn's broken blade (Anduril?).

[nemafakei]

To clarify,

Aethereal or Ethereal = composed of air (αιθηρ)

Ephemeral = short-lived (εφ-ημερα)

[TMA_1]

true true nema, and that was what I meant. WHile Maiar and Valar are immortal, the bodies in which they house themselves in are indeed mortal. A lot of people dont really understand that, but it is the case. This is why mankind is so strange. When their bodies die they dont go to the halls of Mandos, like the elves (and the dwarves as I believe they do. If you read in the silmarillion Aule loved the dwarves much and pleaded with iluvatar that they may have security in the hereafter, and Iluvatar granted it). Mankind goes outside the rings of the earth, and therefore are not immortal. Originally this was thought of as a blessing because mankind knew there was something more out there than just extinction. Later though after ages mankind (and not a few elves) believed it as a curse, because they were so afraid of not knowing what was really to be of man after they died. that is why I used the words on the temporal bodies of all creatures that arent man nema.

That is a really interesting interpritation Lord J! I never thought about it like that in the film before. Though it wasent apart of the book, it does make sense in the movie that it was a sort of prophesy or dooming of boromir. That is strictly in the movie though.

But in the books it is more about Boromir's fear of Sauron. It truly wasent a selfish want of boromir's, as many people say. In my opinion he really wanted the ring to defend his people. But as Gandalf said "I would use the ring out of a desire to do good, but through me an evil too terrible to imagine would grow". This is the same for boromir, no matter how good your intentions are, and no matter how truthfully your heart is placed in your people, the ring is evil and that cannot change.

Hobbits and Dwarves are probably the least tempted by the ring. You may be shocked that I mention Dwarves. But in the Appendix as well as the silmarillion, it mentions that dwarves are extremely, extremely stubburn and proud. They dont bow to anybody, and hate any sort of crutch or thing that would chain them to anything, be it good or evil.

It is also weird that though they love Gold and things of that nature, they love it for reasons that nobody really understands. They dont love those things like man does, they love things like Gold and gems because they are so beautiful. It isnt a matter of riches or power, but simply they inherently love things they can craft and make beautiful. Aule instilled that thought into them when he created the Seven Fathers under the great mountain.

[Frodo_I]

Nice post TMA-1.

[NHJ BV]

Gandalf the Grey was sent from Valinor to Middle Earth by the Valar, if I recall correctly. With him went Saruman the White, Radagast the Brown and two Blue wizards who went to the southeast, not much is known about them. There is some information about the five in the Lost Tales, including the High-Elven names of the two Blue wizards.

The wizards were sent to Middle Earth from Valinor by the Valar to help the peoples there fight against Sauron (among other reasons perhaps, I'm not sure). The Valar wanted to help Middle Earth, but they didn't want to be involved openly like they did when the overthrew Morgoth at the end of the First Age. That's why they sent the wizards to Middle Earth.

[TMA_1]

totally nhj! I have always wondered what the two blue wizards did, from what I could see one went into the far east into Rhun, and the other down into the deeps of Harad into the Haradwaith.

gandalf was one of the istari, or a form of Maiar. They can be roughly equated to a "demi-god". They vary in power, and are extremely diverse. I mean for example a balrog is a maiar.  He is much more ancient than people realize, being apart of the first songs of creation through iluvatar. All maiar used to have good hearts, but some like most balrogs became evil. Not all of them though, for example the creature that carries the sun in it's orbit is a good balrog.

Also dwarves are not evil!!!! and they are not greedy in ways that so many people think they are. As I have said above they dont love gold and riches the way man does. They love them for their natural beauty. It is so different culturally from what man thinks of gold and things of that nature. Dwarves are not inherently evil, but are inherently neutral. They dont like to be subdued or overcome, and like to take care of their own affairs. If they see that it is their best interests to do something they will do it, and if they see their allies in danger they will fiercely defend them. For example the eregion elves were great friends with the dwarves and the dwarves and eregion elves protected one another. There are evil dwarves too, but they rae usually "petty dwarves". These are dwarves that have wondered from their family clans and have become somewhat nomadic and stand-offish.

It also says that sauron recieved power from the one ring. I will find where it states that in the Silmarillion. It says that if he did not have the ring than his power would be substancially lost. He put apart of his essence in the ring, but a weird quirk of the thing is that If he had the ring on, his power would be amplified. I iwll find where it says that.

Also not all the rings were evil. Remember taht sauron only made the One ring, but because there is a taint there, if the One ring is wealded tahn the other rings will submit to the master ring. If the One ring isnt wealded though than the rings are seperated from saurons power and therefore they are not inherently evil.

[Edric O]

I'm not very knowledgeable of Tolkein lore, so I can't really comment, but there is one side note I'd like to make:

D&D has a distinctive alignment system. Which alignment do you think best fits each of the main characters of LOTR?

[Frodo_I]

Also not all the rings were evil. Remember taht sauron only made the One ring, but because there is a taint there, if the One ring is wealded tahn the other rings will submit to the master ring. If the One ring isnt wealded though than the rings are seperated from saurons power and therefore they are not inherently evil.

Yeah, thats what I was talking about.  But, all the rings were made with Sauron's influence.  He was there "learning" when they were made.  He "helped" make them.  So that makes them all evil when he yields the binding ring.  When he doesn't have the binding ring, then the other rings do their own thing like you said.

FWH

[alchemi2]

TMA's right about dwarves being misunderstood!! at the caves of Helms Deep the dwarf shows their true feeling about precious things, the elf misunderstands and thinks he wants to mine them and he explains that no dwarf would mine it just bring light and remove bits of rock to show off the caves true beauty.

Borimir is subdued 1st by the ring as his desire to defend his people and his sense of duty to his people is so great the ring use this to entice and subvert him.

My own view of hobbits ability to resist the ring is due to their love of the simplistic things in life and total lack of desire to have dominace or power over others, Gandalf is even surprised by their ability to resist its evil for so long.

[TMA_1]

yeah totally, I think it is also an enherent natural ability of the hobbits. Also one thing that people always forget is that the War of the Ring were not only faught near Minas Tirith, or near the gates of Udun, or near Umbar. THey were also skermishes as far up as where the lost realm of Arnor was, and some of the heaviest fighting out of the whole war was actually faught near Dale. Without the help of Dain (by the way one of the coolest damn characters ever.lol) the men of dale would have lost.

I mean face it, if you saw a bunch of dwarves charging you in their hideous masks, and huge beards, yelling out "beware fo the dwarves, the dwarves are upon you!" in their strange language, with mattocks and axes you would be scared.lol

[NHJ BV]

Yeah, you're right. Minas Tirith wasn't by far the only battle fought. L

[number6]

Go to this site:

www.glyphweb.com/arda

and you all can be Tolkein experts without even reading the books. It does help having read the books though.

I found the comparison between the books and the movies on that site very good. Here's a link to the comparison for "Return of the King":

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/returnoftheking.html

[GUNWOUNDS]

I'm not very knowledgeable of Tolkein lore, so I can't really comment, but there is one side note I'd like to make:

D&D has a distinctive alignment system. Which alignment do you think best fits each of the main characters of LOTR?

Based on your answers to the quiz, your character

[TMA_1]

hey I didnt know you were into D&D edric, and same with you gunwounds. that is really really freakin cool! See, I cant play it around here because I either have friends who arent into it at all, or a few of my friends who are just plain nuts with that stuff.lol

[Edric O]

LOL, no, I'm not into D&D - not beyond newbie-level, at any rate. I'm just into a certain RPG game called Neverwinter Nights, which uses D&D rules.

As for my alignment:

Chaotic Good

A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he