Good and Evil

[tag]

With the digression in the "deviators" and "a interesting question" threads, I thought it appropriate to combine the topic into a single coherent thread. To this end I have compiled the main points made by the inseperable Edric O and Shaddam_Corrino who support the "Evil Atreides" thesis and Fedaykin-Sandwalker who challenges, as well as some additional points of my own.

Definitions from Websters New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, Second Edition ©1983

good, a.

1) valid; legally firm; sound; not fallacious; genuine; not counterfeit; acceptable; as, a good claim, a good argument, good money.

4) dependable; reliable; right; as, good advice.

6) morally sound or excellent; specifically, (a) virtuous; (b) pious; ©kind, benevolent, generous, sympathetic, etc.; (d) well-behaved; dutiful; (e) proper; becoming, as good manners.

11) honorable; fair; unblemished; unimpeached; as, one's good name.

evil, a.

1) having bad moral qualities; sinful; bad; wicked; corrupt; as, evil thoughts; evil deeds.

2) causing painor trouble; harmful; injurous.

3) threatening or bringing misfortune; unlucky; disasterous; unfortunate; as, an evil hour.

Edric O's main statements:

"The Atreides use nazi propaganda methods to make people think like sheep!"

"Paul Muad'hib compared himself to Hitler and Ghenghis Khan in Dune Messiah. He unleashed a Jihad upon the Universe, that caused the deaths of billions. He and Alia were worshipped as gods AND THEY LIKED IT. Those Atreides demanded total devotion from their subjects and they imposed a regime of terror. And all that for what? To "mix up the genes" of mankind. Typical nazi ideas and practices."

"what I meant with "nazi practices" was that both the Atreides and the nazis wanted to "purify" the human race."

"The Ordos are not good or evil. They follow logic. Evil is not logical."

"don't you understand that Paul's legions killed BILLIONS of people? If that doesnt make him evil then nothing will! To say that Paul is good would be like saying that Hitler was a kind and gentle leader!"

Shaddam-Corrino's main statements:

"Paul Atreides was a hundred times worse than Shaddam IV ever was. He even likened himself to Hitler and Ghenghis Kahn, need I say more?"

"he [Paul-Maud'dib Atreides] started the whole jihad that killed BILLIONS of innocent people! Keyword innocent! He didn't wage war against just the people who killed his father and plotted his own death, he was responsible for the women and children that were butchered mercilessly by his legions in the Jihad."

"Paul knew what he was doing, knew he could stop it, and didn't. He was evil to the core."

Fedaykin-Sandwalker's main statements:

"How dare you compare Atreides to the Nazis using propaganda methods to mislead the people. Ordos are the best [propagandists]"

"The Third Reich was definally not into "mixing mankinds genes" now what history class did you attend."

"The Ordos can't be the "good guys" for all of their logical reasoning they have no compassion in their little cold-blooded reptilian hearts."

"Yes, maybe Paul could have done more to stop the jihad or maybe not remember no matter what he did his "prescient visions" still showed the jihad taking place. Example Dune page 307

And again he remembered the vision of fanatic legions following the green and black banner of the Atreides, pillaging and burning across the universe in the name of their prophet Muad'Dib. That must not happen, he told himself.

and if you continue reading over to page 309 you'll see Paul did not want it to happen but really did not know how to stop it."

Bashar's statement:

It seems to me that the primary question on the table is whether or not the House Atreides can be generally defined as being evil. There's a point of clarification which I would first like to bring into the light. To start I will quote from Frank Herbert's Dune.

Royal disdain revealed itself in the way the Emperor turned to look at Paul. "I believe my entourage has been placed under the protection of your ducal word."

"My question is for imformation only," Paul said. "I wish to know if a Harkonnen is officially a part of your entourage or if a Harkonnen is merely hiding behind a technicality out of cowardice."

The Emperor's smile was calculating. "Anyone accepted into the Imperial company is a member of my entourage."

"You have the word of a Duke," Paul said. "But Maud'Dib in another matter. He might not recognise your definition of what constitutes an entourage."

The reason I point this out is to show that Paul-Maud'Dib himself drew a line between his responsibilities as a member of the Landsraad and a Fremen. Being as all the examples brought up by Edric O and Shaddam_Corrino center on Paul, his sister Alia, and his son Leto II, I am wondering if either might wish to revise your thesis to specify Atreides rulers post the reign of Leto I?

There is also the question of whether or not the Atreides are fascists. Fascism implies a capitalist, or sometimes socialist, economic system under the control of a totalitarian regime, usually lead by a single dictator. After a bit of research, I have found no reason to believe that Paul-Maud'Dib and Alia ruled anything other than the Monarchy wrested from Shaddam IV. There were cultural changes to be certain; however, in the end Paul does seem to have upheld the principles of a Monarchical system by continuing his bloodline and not alltogether eliminating the Landsraad.

Leto II, being half sand worm, is something of a special case. If human principles can be applied to him then I would have to agree that his reign was significantly more fascist than that of his predecessors.

Fianlly we come to the charge of Paul's having killed billions of people in his jihad, great emphasis on the word "billions." Can anyone tell me what the human population was in the 10,190s? Furthermore, there are currently 6 billion people on Earth, so the term "billions" could refer to anywhere from 1/3 of to 166 Earths, out of an Empire of a Thousand Worlds. In other words, we have absolutely no idea what kind of proportions we are dealing with. I would say that the reactions of Edric O and Shaddam_Corrino in this case are the inverse of Stilgar's when Paul was discussing Genghis Khan and Hitler because, as with Stilgar, we are basing our assessment on our own personal experiences.

Furthermore, I would like to know where the idea comes from that these people killed were all innocent? Not everybody approved of the change in power between the houses of Corrino and Atreides. Peoples cynical of Sardaukar strength and ingnorant of Fremen formidability rebelled openly. Had they succeeded, they would have been called revolutionaries but being as they did not, they are traitors. Can anyone therefore point out specific instances in which the Jihad was not, in actuality if a bit heavy handedly, enforcing Imperial law?

Oh, one last thing. If any of us were worshiped like a god, is there any reason we shouldn't like it? <g>

--Bashar

[cyclonus]

That is one loooooooong post.

[ordos45]

I never noticed before but House Atreides is much like the Nazis. They are much like everything listed in Edric's original post and Shaddam's post as well. Scary they more or less said the same thing. Hitler believed he was creating a superior race and Paul believed he was in a way to. Note in the post of Shaddam's Paul knew he could stop it but didn't. Why not? Maybe because in his heart he loved it. As for his son Leto II siezed the throne as was his birthright after Paul and Alia died, then over the millenia killed almost ALL who opposed him.

Leto II was evil to the core even with his Golden Path. Sure it may have seemed a good thing saving humanity, but it still causes the deaths of uncounted people. They believe in the Ornge Catholic Bible in Dune. If Leto II believed there was God then why save humanity when all of humanity could meet their Maker and live happily in Heaven for eternity except for those who did not believe and would rot in hell. Leto II called himself God Emperor. Did he come to believe himself God incarnate, or was he really Shaitan aka Satan. Satan would like to see humanity suffer forever, is that why Leto II said they would call him Shaitan?

Even the Bene Gesserit are in a way Nazis. They to want to control and purify the human race. They wanted to breed a super being, sound like certain Nazi experiments anyone?

The Honored Matres are much like the Bene Gesserit in that respect. Except they took it further. Eliminating the weak and attempting full Genocide of the Sisterhood.

The Guild as well is slightly Nazi like. They believe they are superior to the race that gave them birth. They only accept certain canidates for testing, yet they still don't accept most of them. The failed navigators become like a slave race.

House Ix. They bred suboids as a slave race. They treated the suboids like second class citizens.

It seems to me Humanity has become crueler over the millenia. Humanity has lost most of its compassion by this time period above.

[quoudam72]

Is everyone a Nazis to you Ordos45? The only thing you forgot to say was "Edric is this what you told me to post cause if it is not correct I can change it to make you look better". Come on Ordos45 almost everytime you post it's to kiss Edric's behind. I'm really being to wonder who are the real sheep are around here. Is there not any of the other members besides Bashar and myself who have read the books and know that what Edric and Shaddam_Corrino talk about is so full of holes that it doesn't hold water?

[exatreide]

LISTEN YOU, WE ARE NOT HERE TO BIKERR.THAT JUST HAPPENS TO Be HIS OPINION SO LET IT GO.GOING TO STOP WRITING IN CAPS SO PREPARE YOURSELF. there. evreone in the books are racist to 1 people the telexu.ok. eww the telexu. the dirty telexu ect.. i say we stop this pointless discousion. i see its bringing the worst out of people. (Cough "Fedakey" Cough)

[ordos45]

Actually I have read all the books. Personally I love how everyone in Chapterhouse has their own agendas. Yes I do think a good portion of the rulers in Dune are Nazi like actually. Also I do not need "to kiss Edric's behind." I haven't called Edric the Almighty Emperor of the Ordos in six months or more now. I like to contradict or support people. Usually I contradict, but your subject really touches on some questions I've been asking myself.

1. Where does the line between good and evil become so blurred you can't tell which is which? House Atreides rulers are a fine example of this. They may seem kind on the outside but also seem Nazi like on closer observation. While House Harkonnen as someone put it is more communist. With little care for their citizens and ruling with an iron fist thus showing they are evil. As for the Ordos themselves. They follow logic often but greed gets in the way occasionally, thus House Ordos is tough to tell about but is most likely as evil as the rest.

2. Is it right to kill in self defense? Maybe some of those "innocent people" might have grown up to kill Paul had the Jihad not taken place. We'll never know but maybe some parts of the Jihad were merely in self defense.

Heretics of Dune: Good plot. Set after the Scattering with the Honored Matres back and we learn who they are and meet them for the first time. Also its nice to see the usually Minor Bene Gesserit and Tlielaxu are Major Players finally. Touching about Sheana's village with the worm swallowing it and the whole faction's within the sisterhood thing. All in all a great book. With a fast moving plot yet still good enough to keep me hooked.

God Emperor of Dune was a bit long in my opinion and full of Leto's philosophical questions and assassination. Herbert gave some well rounded characters in Siona and Moneo as well as Hwi. What a tragic ending in the bridge destruction to such a tyrannical reign.

Children of Dune: I really didn't like it much and couldn't get into it. Except I did like a look at Selusa.

Dune Messiah:So many poltical intrigues. Irulan and the Bene Gesserit and the Guild all working together. Amazing actually and Chani's death was such a horrible way to end her life.

Dune: A literary masterpiece. The begining in which we meet and see the near total destruction of House Atreides. Find out the secret of the spice, have traitors and soldeirs. SHield fighting and a folding space. The death of the Baron with a gom jabbar by Alia. Jessica becoming a Fremen version of a reverend mother. The fall of Shaddam IV. The sardaukar and the Baron's forces side by side at the fall of house Atreides. All in all it or Chapterhouse is the best of the Dune Series.

House Atreides: Not bad. I never knew about the fall of Ix and the death of Leto I's first son VIctor. Duncan's escape from the harks and the secret of hagle crystal was informative as well. But soooo many descrepancies besides what Frank Herbert wrote.

House Harkonnen: Not much remarkable except for the Ginaz school and Gurney's story even with the rape on his sis, yet another desrepancy. Love the part about how Gurney got his scar.

If you were wondering my Fedaykin-Sandwalker all of that was to prove I read the books.

(modifications begin)

Wait you posted about the worst in people Ex before I could post this and show how easily for an Ordos I go to complete evil. To show my points on the Atreides as well as Shaddam and Edric's I recommend a book which is now out of print. The Wave by Todd Strasser which shows how evil people can become and how Nazi like they can become in a short amount of time without meaning to be. This could also be how Paul and Leto became so evil. Leto I murdered by Harks. Paul enraged. Kills billions in Jihad also see possible self defense section beofre jumping to conclusions. Leto II after seeing The Abomination Alia possessed by the Baron and her guards kill his dad becomes more evil and cold towards the people when he siezes control, although his cold heartedness could be attributed possibly to his merge with the Sandworm. Evil can be passed down is my point and slowly with each generation it builds. Also before you try and kill me for this post Fedaykin-Sandwalker, I'm very mean at night so I'm sorry if I overly offended you or do offend you in some way but its nearly 1AM EST and I'm still on the computer.

(modification ends.)

[Digital Guerrilla]

ExAtreides what are you talking about?:) I don't think the discussion is pointless cause Fedaykin-Sandwalker is making some very vaild points. The Bene Gesserit used religious lies like the Missionaria Protectiva to control certain people and also the experiment with the bloodlines to get the Kwisatz Haderach in a plot to control the spice. I don't agree with Ordos45 about them being like the Nazis but they were definally a bunch of sneaky withces. What Bashar says about the jihad is true when the rule changed to Maud'Dib he did in fact enforce heavy handed Imperial law so those opposing would in fact be considered traitors. Bashar that is a good idea bringing this to one thread cause it is hard trying to read this over many different other subjects.

[ordos45]

Ok I will consent the Bene Gesserit are not Nazis. But they are sneaky and conniving and decieving and all the things everyone associates with the Ordos actually. The Tleilaxu yes everyone is racist against. As for the Lynch movie. Anyone notice how much the atreides uniform almost mimiced the Nazi one? In the Starship Troopers movie their dress uniforms did match but that is a different topic and the whole government was structured that way. Anyhow is this what humanity will be like in the future? I hope not, I hope by 10190 they have attained lasting peace. Anyhow I expect Gob will eventually have to step in at the rate these arguements are heating up.

[garth]

Folks, the Jihad was a RELIGIOUS war. It was not heavy handed Imperial Law, it was religious persecution of the extreme against people not accepting Muad'Dib's religion.

If Paul Muad'dib's fanatical legions killed even one innocent person he is still evil, one life or billions. Why does it even matter if it was still a fraction of the universal population, is one life not worth anything? How Atreides like. This is demonstrated in the book when Paul shows more concern over lost equipment than his own men in the end, which stuns Gurney Halleck btw.

The Atreides aren't Nazis and I don't think they used propaganda to submit the people to their will. They used something infinitely times worse IMO: fear. Fear of being slaughtered as a heretic. Is that just and honorable? Are these the type of traits Duke Leto I demonstrated? Absolutely not. Paul was corrupt, he saw the Jihad coming and btw he could've prevented it from the very beginning by killing himself, before he met the fremen. He also could've become a Guild Navigator also, which he tossed around in his mind in the stilltent scene with Jessica in the desert.

Isn't it kind of stupid to be arguing about fascism and capitalism anyways? The Imperial govt. was a feudal structure during the reign of Shaddam IV, but moved steadily to a theocracy under Pauld Atreides, Alia, and finally a Pharoanic style govt. under Leto II(I). The economy in the Duniverse is capitalism to the core, as evidenced by CHOAM and the dispensing of directorships in the combine to the leaders of the Great Houses (families) by the Emperor.

The whole point of my post earlier was to show how much worse Paul Atreides was than Shaddam IV. There was no jihad in his reign and billions of lives were not destroyed in a religious crusade or inquisition. How conveniently this is forgotten.

"Come on Ordos45 almost everytime you post it's to kiss Edric's behind. I'm really being to wonder who are the real sheep are around here. Is there not any of the other members besides Bashar and myself who have read the books and know that what Edric and Shaddam_Corrino talk about is so full of holes that it doesn't hold water?"

I am NOT even going to dignify this pathetic statement with a response. Stick to the facts fedaykin, if you can't handle it, don't go slandering whoever stands in your path.

[ordos45]

Ok Shaddam most of your points are sound. "Paul shows more concern over lost equipment than his own men in the end, which stuns Gurney Halleck btw" I want to expand on that point very quickly. At the beggining of Dune Leto I shows concern for the men on the crawler more than the spice and equipment. This shows us like u said how The Atreides were honorable under his reign. Now lets see Paul cares more about equipment. Not the Atreides way until he corrupted it. Paul at first seemed to care more about people until he took the water of life or became a leader amongst the Fremen. I think the hardened lifestyle or the water of life may have played a key role in his corruption.

[peseverance]

This s Hilarious

next we'll be saying the Harkonnens are the most rightful people in Dune!

LOL

[ordos45]

Well in way the Harks are...just kidding

[fedaykin_jatin]

ah.. read more carefully pple. all this was in the great vision. no one in the universe could change its path. All actions r planned by it. they just followed the path

[exatreide]

i don't planet being harsh changed paul. paul did not live in the desert he lived in a nice big palece with lots water. i reamber one part of Dune Messiha whare Alice is taking a bath a thinks "If the niabs would see me they would be very disapointed".err something like that so water was not a faction in the problem. the atreides were not evil leaders till mua'dib. And Edric they did not use propaganda they atedntd festivals. helped in the Pundi rice felid ect... Letto the 2ed was not evil he was just bord. HE LIVED FOR 3,500 YEARS FOR CRIST ERRR..... MUD'DIB SAKES. you dont think life would get old. HI DUNCAN NUMBER #45645. you know cut the guy err...huge mutating worm god some slack. but I agree what he did was wrong you cant kill a few for the hole. Another nazie simularite some dr. somthing tested on jews in ww2 to find a cure for TB or some other disise. He killed thousands to help Billions but what he did was still wrong yes. he had no right to do it just like leto the 2. the only way paul could have changed that was to do what the guild sugested kill himself. But he wanted reveng for his fathers death. Aliea was just insane muhahahahahamuaahaahhaah ect... In Dune Messiaha it said that the guild had created a quiz.had.bert.backerate (not spelling Duh)dose any one know the storie behind that? All i Know was that he killed himself. Power dose make a man go slightly insane after a while. you cant be a good guy forever you know sometimes your in a bad mode so insted off taking your agresion out some way else. you say hey lets go kill some pesents. then you start to like it the people give you nicknames the beast raban ect... house harkonne was the worst of its time then the atreides took over its a never ending circule of violence.

[garth]

The means do not justify the ends. Is it right to kill 100 people to save 2000? How about 1 billion to save 20 trillion?

The answer is still no and Duke Leto I would agree, Paul and Leto II(I) however would not. Which makes them immoral and evil.

[exatreide]

maybe there not evil maybe they just lost there humanity. once paul drank the water of life he changed. aliea changed before she was born so did leto and his sister.with out the proper benigesert traing. but the did kinda have this since jessica had the water. maybe your right maybe they are jsut evil and maybe there just misunderstood we will never know unles you want to email brian her bert and kevin j andersin. someone should do that so we can finely have an ending. he can probly check franks notes to see what he thought of it. or we can keep bickering it up to you i'm nutrale either way is fine with me.

[fedaykin_jatin]

yes! i believe its right to kill a 100 to save 2000.

Duh.

if u calculate it. u only lose a 100 pple. so out of 2100 pple.

2000 survive. or would u rather all 2100 died?

i suppose your answer is no now?

[ordos45]

I know I'll coe under fire for this philosophy but here it is and it applies to the questions here.

'One life taken in anger is all that is needed to become evil.'

Therefore if anything at all killing the Baron's nephew while hating him mad Paul evil, now the nephew killed for sport and that made him evil as well. But to kill an evil only to become evil yourself is not necessarily right.

[garth]

It's a little thing called "basic human rights" and there was this one movie about a doctor, played by Gene Hackman who was looking for a cure to paralysis, but to do this he needed living spinal cords to experiment on and so he kidnapped people off the streets and had them killed. Since they were homeless bums for the most part no one cared, but does that make what he did right? It's still murder in the first degree and he was evil, even though the possible ends would be a cure to paralysis.

It's the exact same situation with Paul and the Jihad, he had those people butchered in order for a "greater good" which was ***possibly*** saving humanity. It does not make it right and in fact, evil.

[ordos45]

I think the movie was Malice but I'm not sure.

[alejandro]

Wow, Philosophy, Religion and Politic, the three bases of power over the military one, my mind is still clouded before reading all this but as i see this are my conclusion.

1. The House of Atreides becomes a Theocracy of the Worst kind, Leto must be thinking in the other life that he is cursed and his son, and everybody in the family. So we can see that the power corrupts everything and everybody.

2. About if is rigth kill 100 to save 1000, all you make me laugh, we dont know the future so is useless talk about it, and if you remember that is the argument of C&C Red Alert, Hitler was killed and Stalin invades europe.

3. In resume: All the goverment systems have a lot of errors(

[quoudam72]

Shaddam first if you did not want to dignify my pathetic statement with a response why did you even mention it at the end of a wonderful counter you should learn to not get too far ahead of yourself. Second I don't believe that Ordos45 needed to you to attempt to come to his aid. He very well understood that I was talking to him directly and he defended himself rather well I will add. These statements are not filled with anger or hate just my opinions.:)

Now on to the discussion at hand....The jihad was not avoidable let's keep in mind Paul was the Kwisatz Haderach and in his visions no matter what he did he still saw the jihad. I know your opinion (Shaddam) will be different than mine in conjuction to the previous statement I made I present this from Children of Dune

The universe is just there; that's the only way a Fedaykin can view it and remain the master of his senses. The universe neither threatens nor promises. It holds things beyond our sway: the fall of a meteor, the eruption of a spicebow, growing old and dying. These are the realities of this universe an they must be faced regardless of how you feel about them. You cannot fend off such realities with words. They will come at you in their own wordless way and then, then you will understand what is meant by "life and death." Understanding this, you will be filled with joy

. Sometimes things are just what they are and there are no real answers for these things.

I hear your answer already Shaddam.

Let us take these words into consideration also:

In all major socializing forces you will find an underlying movement to gain and maintain power through the use of words. From the witch doctor to priest to bureaucrat it is all the same

.

So see it has always been a power struggle of words in any discussion as it is in this thread.

Paul choose to manage a vision that required him to balance on a single thread---a high tightwire with cosmic solitude on both sides. You can not change the past and you can not control the future.

This discussion is powerful I hope WE all can learn from the words we share amongest ourselves.

[garth]

The Jihad was done in Paul's name with Paul's consent and with Paul's legions. He was responsible and billions died.

"We want to avoid a showdown confrontation with out enemies," Alia said. "We have no special desire to kill them. There's enough butchery going on under the Atreides banner."

She feels it too, Paul thought.

He even admitted he was butchering people. It doesn't matter if he could or couldn't stop it, it still happened and it was done in his name and he didn't speak out against it or denounce it.

I did not run to Ordos' defense, you accused both me and him of having not read the books. You're getting caught up in your own rhetoric.

[Edric O]

So to sum it up Fedaykin, you think that Paul did humanity a service by starting the Jihad? There is no other way to explain your idea that the Atreides are actually good. But NOTHING can justify genocide, not even the possibility of a bigger genocide!

It is not right to sacrifice the few for the good of the many! That's wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong! And Paul didn't sacrifice the few for the good of the many anyway, he just sacrificed billions of people because he was too lazy to stop the Jihad!

I still think Paul could have easily stopped the Jihad, but that doesn't really matter. Even if he knew that the Jihad was inavoidable, he could have at least tried his best to stop it! Any good man would have told the fremen to stop! And if that failed, he should have killed himself to clear his name. If I saw a genocide being done in my name, I'd kill myself to show to the stupid fremen that their prophet is all too human!

Paul was evil at the core. In the desert, he chose the path of the Jihad. At that time he told himself that he must not let the Jihad happen. But when the Jihad actually started, he had become corrupted by power and I think he actually enjoyed the slaughter!

As for Leto II, there's nothing more to say. Leto II was not only a heartless, evil, bloodthirsty maniac, but he also considered himself a God!

[quoudam72]

Shaddam you know not what you are talking about I asked if anyone else had read the book I did not accuse you of not reading the book(s) I know that you have. Can't you get it right. The only reason I did not mention you or Ordos45 (by name) was because there was no need (although I should have for clarity purposes) my appeal was for other "memebers" to join this discussion with us. I could have worded that better so it would have been understood. All you talk about is the jihad and the so-called billions(a number up for debate). For the jihad to include billions would mean more than one planet what other planets had the Fremen traveled to while involed in jihad? If they had done that show where it took place. Edric what you have said about sacifices now do you think the Ordos behave that way? Not if it (cough cough) the spice is involed. Cause the the Ordos' greed is not something to be overlooked. Your tricks will not work cause I know what it is that bothers you about my posts. I should have been quiet a long time ago cause no one can challenge the you two that is the unthinkable the mighty Shaddam and Edric the Snake-god. The two-headed Ordos serpent is joined by the same spine. And we all know that even though the serpent has two-heads only one can feed at a time cause if both heads were to feed at the same time it would choke itself.