How to blow an issue out of all proportions, Bush-style

[Edric O]

Gay marriage used to be a minor argument focused mainly on semantics, as each side tried to define the word "marriage" according to its own interests and beliefs. But all that changed when Bush's campaign managers decided to try scooping up a few more votes by blowing the issue out of all proportions. Gay marriage is now the object of a possible Constitutional Ammendment. After all, who cares about unemployment, war, or the other unimportant little things like health care and education? It's the exact definition of the word "marriage" that every American worries about! ::)

Here are a couple of articles:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.marriage/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.marriage.reacts/

Perhaps Bush should also introduce an ammendment to define the exact use of a condom...

[ordos45]

Perhaps Bush should also introduce an ammendment to define the exact use of a condom...

Don't joke, there are already Federal programs that give schools funding to teach abstinence and nothing else about sexual education.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Don't joke, there are already Federal programs that give schools funding to teach abstinence and nothing else about sexual education.

which is exactly what some parents want.

I know many fathers and mothers

[Caid Ivik]

It's been time. EdricO, state shouldn't have no hand over marriages and such. But as there are systems (taxes, welfare) which are linked to it, it has to do so. State cares for family and family provides it with new members of society. If someone can't have a children and can't even try for it, he also can't marry someone else. You won't be a runner if you have no legs...

[Edric O]

Caid, that was just plain idiotic. Legal marriage has nothing to do with having children. The purpose of the family is not to "provide" anyone with fresh children! What is this, the Dark Ages?

[HasimirFenring]

"If someone can't have a children and can't even try for it, he also can't marry someone else."

Wow.  What utter nonsense.  So a person who has become sterile from radiation poisoning can't be married?  Someone who has passed childbearing age isn't eligible for marriage?

Wow.

[alchemi2]

lol typical of american politics focus on the issues.

1st they complain bitterly that the gay community is too permiscuos and then remove the means and recognistion of having along term partner for life. Bearing in mind that marriage is supposed to be that, the commitment of two people to spend the rest of their lives together.

By the way children have nothing to do with marriage, it don't get a mention in the standard vows love honour obey oh and of cause reproduce together.  ;D

[Mahdi]

The sanctity of marriage is being ruined by these same sex weddings! Who ever heard of two people sharing a loving, monogomous relationship for the rest of there lives?!

Screw that, I'm off to watch "Who wants to marry a millionaire", "The Bachelor", and "Joe Millionaire". Now that's the way marriage is truly supposed to be. An exploited fraud committed strictly for financial gain, between two people of the OPPOSITE SEX.

Who's with me?!

[Caid Ivik]

Caid, that was just plain idiotic. Legal marriage has nothing to do with having children. The purpose of the family is not to "provide" anyone with fresh children! What is this, the Dark Ages?

That's what you can derive from every constitution based on "modern" thoughts. I don't apply my moral view on it. State is a machine, if you want to understand it, you must think like it. It is you, who doesn't believe me we DID live in a dark age. Our societies must look into mirror.

[Filo]

Well. I'm the happy father of two children, and I've never been married... I don't consider it as a necessity. I don't need contract to proove my love, nor to society nor to my girlfriend.

I guess more and more laymen think so. (And it's cheaper when you split! huh!)

About gay's marriage, my opinion is shared... I wish happiness to the ones who love each other, and if they want to marry I'm OK for this reason, but when I think about an average child educated by homosexual couple, I wonder if he wouldn't miss something...

In France, we have laws which permit it. We have also the P.A.C.S, ("solidarity civil pact") which replace a civil marriage between 2 humans, without sex considerations or any else.

I heard in France that students can go up to a highschool teacher and ask for a condom and they will have them in stock in their desk...

That's nearly true... Not the teacher himself, but at the sick-bay... anyway you've got slot-machines everywhere, in the campus or in the streets...

[Caid Ivik]

Well, to be true I don't plan to marry officially as well. Before God I will as I am christian, but I want no cold bureaucrat making it some kind of "institution".

[Dante]

Considering the fuss that all this has kicked up (again and again) I wonder why we bother really. Most couples that would get 'married' don't need, or shouldn't need the institution to prove this. They should have their own commitment. This in turn means that marriage is a legal function to benefit and protect, nothing more.

Ordinarily I would be in favour of the gay community simply coming up with our own alternative that provided the same benefits. But this wouldn't have the same connotations, and it would additionally strengthen the divide between people.

I'm too young to do anything just yet; but when the time comes I would like there to be an oppertunity.

[ordos45]

True Gunwounds, but if they're already having sex, teaching them abstinence won't help at all.  Not that our current methods help a lot, but they do some.

[Acriku]

GUNWOUNDS, kids will have sex. It's inevitable, and foolish to think that parents can stop them. They get sexually frustrated, find someone else just as frustrated, and have sex. The point of teaching sexual education is to teach having safe sex - the kids are having sex right now, why not teach them how to do it right? If it is safe, then what's the problem? I would rather have kids who had sex safely than kids who had STDs after the school's abstinence lecture that fell on deaf ears.

Back to the topic, this is typical of politics in general. If you're not doing as well in areas like the deficit blindside the idiots who agree with this amendment and keep their votes in Bush's pocket. I don't blame Bush for this, I blame the game.

[Caid Ivik]

I would say it would be better to teach kids let they wait with it until they mature...then teach them what you want.

[Dante]

I think it would be more advisable to teach them what they want. But as Acriku said; there is no stopping people. Better to get them to do it safely than condemn them for doing it while being completely unable to alter the situation.

Besides, these parents need to ask themselves; if not in school, where should sex be learnt?

[Filo]

On a fucking screen, again! TV, web, magazines...

It's a pity, but it's true...

My daughter (her name is CHANI) asked to me all about sex at ten : I explained all, really all, even about condoms and safe-sex.

I mean the best is first parents' education ; I'll put school and friends in second.

[Caid Ivik]

I think it would be more advisable to teach them what they want. But as Acriku said; there is no stopping people. Better to get them to do it safely than condemn them for doing it while being completely unable to alter the situation.

Besides, these parents need to ask themselves; if not in school, where should sex be learnt?

Some children start fucking, others go for drugs. I don't want to condemn no one, it's just my opinion that they should follow some rules. Only parents can give it to them. I think that promiscuitic life in pubertal time isn't good as the organs used for it themselves aren't fully prepared for it, and also such child is too much influented from society around, so he can't see what's good and what's not. As parent, it would be my responsibility over him (or her). Especially if it'll be daughter, it wouldn't be very nice if she'll came home in 15 with a child...

In short, I would like to have my child under my control. As this is about reproductivity, it will find out even without state's intervention. And for advices are parents.

[Sneakgab]

I don't see the point of trying to force abstinence, even if it is succesful... as it shows that if the person in question being forced to abstain from sex could be a ''whore'' as such (Not to say that their is anything wrong with anyone who is obsessed whith hedonistic pleasures, or anything not not wrong with that person), he/she would, and I am under impression that the point of trying to force abstinence (and the point of abstinence) was to give a person a moral lift and teach that person some discipline,e.t.c. As for teaching abstinence, that is a different story.

It is probably good to get the idea across, but if the person in question refuses to follow the idea and is/becomes obsessed with hedonistical pleasures then it is of no use to keep on repeating the idea... Once a child/teen hears of abstinence it should be of his own choice whether he decides to take control of himself regarding the matter or instead surrender control of himself to his genitalia's whims...

For that reason, after abstinence has been mentioned to somebody, that somebody may as well be supplied with safe means to have sex...

[Caid Ivik]

Children in pubertal time have opened mind for all thoughts around them. You don't have to force such child to do so, just show him a bright side of it. Ie zigeuner colonies here teach their kids that it is better to steal then to work. If they will steal, they won't have to work, so they have motivation...

[Edric O]

Do you know why abstinence education is such an abysmal failure? Not because it is somehow inherently natural or inevitable for teenagers to have sex, but because peer pressure and the media have created an extremely sex-centered sub-culture. The few weak voices from parents and teachers who encourage abstinence are drowned by the hundreds of much louder voices shouting "have sex NOW!"

Teenagers should be left alone to make up their own minds. But instead, they are constantly pushed around by various groups with conflicting interests. And unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it.

[Caid Ivik]

Can you be left alone? Is there a possibility to live without any influence? I don't know how is it in Romania, but I live in a city of half-million population, three television channels, about ten great newspapers etc, how can I avoid here an influence? You can't ban presenting views, that's for sure. But you can have own influence on your children. You should, to be sure.

[Edric O]

I live in a city of 2 million people, 5 local television channels, and plenty of major newspapers. ;)

But you are perfectly correct. No person is truly independent. You cannot live without outside influence, especially not in your teenage years. That was my point when I said that "there doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it". Kids will always be under the influece of society, and the parents who believe they can change that are only deluding themselves.

[Caid Ivik]

Some parts of raising child are fully in hands of parents. For example school. It wasn't my decision to go to a christian school when I was 6. If parents are able to set some limits or create an enviroment around children limiting them, it would protect them. At least they won't be so quickly consumed by liberal fashion.

[Acriku]

Do you know why abstinence education is such an abysmal failure? Not because it is somehow inherently natural or inevitable for teenagers to have sex, but because peer pressure and the media have created an extremely sex-centered sub-culture. The few weak voices from parents and teachers who encourage abstinence are drowned by the hundreds of much louder voices shouting "have sex NOW!"

This is certainly a factor, but I find my inherent urge for sex much more compelling than what celebrities have to say about it. If we deny our perpetual urges, the pressure builds up so much that you may not be able to control yourself. Such is with the Catholic priests convicted of child molestation, such is with many rapists and molesters, such is with sexual harrassers, etc.