the protest in England

[TMA_1]

Hmm,

I am not a fan of george bush jr. I just want to get that point across. Also, I do not like Tony Blair and how he is handling things, but I dont think it would be wise of me to say too much about him as I dont live in England, and it would be pretty presumptious to say something against him. Still though the protesting, which wasent as bad as the media hyped it to be, still annoyes me. These people held of signs like "free palistine" and "no war", and the thing is, The war is over! and what the hell does palistine have to do with all of this? People are forcing their own agendas in at the wrong moment in time. Now the US is in Iraq simply to wait till there is a strong enough government and fighting force to protect itself, till then we are trying to keep the peace. I dont want to argue about how well we are doing with it, because it is pretty lackluster, but the point I am making is, the protests have really nothing to do with what is happening over there. Also, since groups like the Red Cross and many UN beuros are backing otu of Iraq out of fear, what right does the world have to say anything if they are backing out of Iraq, just an opinion.

The loud minority in england seems to be complaining too much for the wrong reasons. of course they have a right to, but it is rather silly in my opinion. Radicals seem to be growing in numbers these days, and it is turning into a big joke. They are a dime a dozen, and it just gets a bit annoying.

I know I have generalized to some degree, but I think my point has been made, plus I had to rush writing this, tell me what you guys think, and dont get too angry at me.lol

[Acriku]

Why can't some protest about Palestine? It's certainly a pressing issue currently.

[ordos45]

It wasn't as bad as you expected? The Associated Press reported 70,000-100,000 protestors the night they toppled the statue of Bush.

[TMA_1]

lol, ordos, it was a pre planned toppling of a statue they made, configured to topple exactly like the saddam hussain statue did. THat is hardly spur of the moment.

True acriku, but it seems a little irrelavent at the moment, when they are protesting against bush and blair, and the administrations in certain areas.

[Wolf]

Well, my question for the protestors is simple. What would they have us do? We cannot leave Iraq in the condition it is in; it would most likely become a terrorist state. We need to establish a democratic government -- with authority and the power to carry out its authority -- as soon as possible, and we cannot leave before that happens. We also need to capture/kill the remanants of the Baath party, otherwise terrorist attacks with continue, and the Baathists will go down in history as one of the more powerful terrorist groups of the 21st century.

So, we cannot pull out, and sending in more men would be widely unpopular, as well as draw criticism from dozens of areas. Because of Bush's decisions (I am not defending those decisions; I maintain my stance that Iraq should have been attacked ONLY if the UN mandated it, and not otherwise -- the best solution would have been not to go to war in the first place, since I don't plan on going back in time, can't really whine about that, can I?), anyway, because of Bush's decisions, we *must* stay until the job is done. We have to do a good job, and once we are done, we must leave and never come back. We must do this as soon as possible, and with as much disclosure to the world society as MUCH as possible. This way, we can keep the politicians honest.

So, the protestors couldn't have been protesting going to war with Iraq, because that issue is kind of moot right now -- we are at war, whether we like it or not. So, what was the protestors' stance?

[TMA_1]

I have to agree with you on what you said wolfblitz. Just because I see faults in this protest does not mean I like the american administration, but I do think that many protesters havent thought everything out clearly. Orh ave thought things out in a twisted and idealistic/pesimistic way.

[Dante]

Let them protest. I'd have gone myself, but I'm too far north to get down and back in a hurry. As for what they think we should do, everyone has different opinions.

Some say we should leave now.

Others say that we should repair what we can and then get out.

Some say that we should stay and make Irag a colony.

I say we fire Bush and put the UN in charge.

But we all agree on one thing. As many of the protestors shouted,

"Peace off Bush!"

[TMA_1]

lol thats good. actually it would be neat to join a peaceful protest. I would have to believe in what they were protesting obviously. Still though it would be neat.

[Edric O]

It's a case of misdirected anger.

The protestors are angry with the way things are going in the world, and they are angry at Bush and his acolytes (including his lap dog, Tony Blair). I completely agree with them - after all, I feel exactly the same way. But they are making FAR too much of a big deal over the Iraq issue. Like Wolfwiz pointed out, there's no turning back now. Coalition troops have to stay in Iraq until the job is done. The war in Iraq is a moot point. Yet people still gather in the tens of thousands to protest it, because it has become a symbol: a symbol of the Bush administration's contempt for the will of the people of the world, a symbol of imperialism and deceit... a symbol of many things, but only a symbol nonetheless. There is no substance to it any more; it's just a symbol.

And that's my problem with these protesters. They should stop protesting a symbol. They should get over it already and start protesting some REAL issues.

Many of them are anti-capitalists. That's very good. But if they want to smash capitalism, they should seriously re-evaluate their priorities.

[nemafakei]

"The loud minority in england seems to be complaining too much for the wrong reasons. of course they have a right to, but it is rather silly in my opinion. Radicals seem to be growing in numbers these days, and it is turning into a big joke. They are a dime a dozen, and it just gets a bit annoying."

Be aware that the Hutton inquiry into the manner of Dr Kelly's death and the preparation of the Iraq war dossier has not yet passed a verdict, and there remains a large question about the conduct of the New Labour government. The protesters know they won't change what happened, but they're still gathering to oppose the belligerent attitude of the US.

They're also rather annoyed that many millions of taxpayers' money is going to fund security for Bush's visit, some of which demanded by the Americans (And Blair won't, of course, pass the bill on).

[shygirl4]

I like Tony blair , He appeared in the Simpsons the other day(you carnt get much bigger than that) :) , these protests in England where anti Bush protests , and not anti American protests. and lets get this in to perspective 70,000 Muppets protested , out of a population of 65 million. :)

shy ::)

[Wolf]

Well, I'm happy to say that people here are not against Americans. On my visit to Europe over the summer, I did not feel that there was any anti-Americanism in the least. As Edric said, it's more like anti-Bushism, and anger with what the American government has decided to do with itself. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and the freedom to express them, but I must ask, what do you expect the US to do about it? Revolt against Bush? Personally, for this rally to be effective, protesters needed to call out to American voters and ask them not to re-elect Bush. That way, we have the best chance of altering the current billigerent foreign policy of the US -- even though we still have to get the job done. That phrase, "getting the job done", might be just what gets Bush reelected. If that happens, we just have to hope he changes his policy stance...

[TMA_1]

I see what you mean nema, but frankly it should be a worthy obligation to help the security of another nation's leader (even though I think it is totally up to that leaders country to find the right amount of funds), and though the president is way way overprotected in many ways, it really isnt going to effect the people of england and their pocket books. talking about a small amount of money compared to real spending.

A lot of the issues you mentioned are almost unknown to most protesters I know. You ask them details on these issues and most of them, remember MOST of them I know dont know these things. Remember nema, you are a knowledgable person, and in reality there arent many of those types out there. I struggle with it frankly. You are also intelligent, and well you know the world, it isnt exactly full of genius'.lol I think that many of these protesters are either shallow-minded or so focused on their individual fanatical desires that a real and fresh mind of matters doesnt exist for most of them.

I know I have made vary broad and sweeping statements, and I hope that you guys dont think I am slamming the entire protesting movement against the war and many other matters. All I am getting at is that there is a large group of protesters that frankly just annoy me, and many others I know. Annoying in the sense that it seems to be a rising epidemic that I am growing to worry about. Governments are beginning to heed the voice of a few radicals, and not the majority all the time.

[NeoLogiX]

The England is not against American people, but Bush itself appears to be proxy clown for THEM.

Bush was innocent gentiles drag by cruel Zionist behind your noble Lincoln statue.

[leo]

The England is not against American people, but Bush itself appears to be proxy clown for THEM.

Bush was innocent gentiles drag by cruel Zionist behind your noble Lincoln statue.

LOL #$%$#^$%^$%

[Dunenewt]

I like Tony blair , He appeared in the Simpsons the other day(you carnt get much bigger than that)

He did?? What happened?

[nemafakei]

"talking about a small amount of money compared to real spending"

You may be used to grander figures over there, but over here, it could mean quite a lot.

Frankly, if I were a president, I'd be booking myself the cheapest flights there were, going by public transport, and talking to anyone who stopped me in the street.

But that's just one of many issues.

"A lot of the issues you mentioned are almost unknown to most protesters I know. You ask them details on these issues and most of them, remember MOST of them I know dont know these things"

I don't know a huge number of protesters personally, but all of those I know are clearly very intelligent... but that's by the by. From what I gather in other means, people don't trek all the way to london from across the country for no good reason, and most I've heard don't seem to be in the least bit mindless. Many are also university students, which generally puts them in the more... academically capable section of society.

Remember also that it is somewhat erroneous comparing number of protesters with the actual population. Most of the population can't afford to pay £40 a week or whatever exorbitant amount it would be to go to every demonstraytion, and a good section of the population are either too old or too young to do so. Plus, people have other things to do.

Put another way, I have not seen a pro-war rally in Britain.

[Inoculator9]

I think protesting the war at this point is simply idiotic, and intellectually lazy. You can't think of anything intelligent, so you pretend you were one of the people that was intelligently recommending not to go to war. The war is over, the damage is done, and now we have a chance to do good. If we can stay in Iraq long enough, and improve the countries policy enough, we might be able to end the propoganda war against America. I mean... if a mainly Muslim, or supposedly Muslim nation begins to support us, America can have an impact. Before this, our only Middle Eastern ally was Israel, and being allied with Jews made Muslims hate us even more, lol :P If we can get a larger power in the area, make it better (economically), and let pro-American sentiment seep out to places like Iran and the like, we can start to end the propoganda that has so long plagued America.

[ordos45]

Dunenewt: He greeted the Simpsons when they got off of the plane, and that was it. He looks younger on the Simpsons.

[Inoculator9]

A stunning performance :P

[Dunenewt]

Dunenewt: He greeted the Simpsons when they got off of the plane, and that was it. He looks younger on the Simpsons.

Thank you.

If only the Simpsons visited Britain more often.

[Dante]

The Regina Monologues. Being shown here sometime January next year I think...

[shygirl4]

Dunenewt: He greeted the Simpsons when they got off of the plane, and that was it. He looks younger on the Simpsons.

excuse me ... he also took a $1 bribe off of homer to :)

shy ::)

[thomas]

a dollar? that .666666% of a pound!

[ordos45]

Oh sorry, should've payed more attention to the scene. :)