The Israeli- Palestinian conflict

[NeoLogiX]

those Jews will never admit their utterly mistake >:(

Pictures may be deceiving... Especially when taken by someone who takes sides.

.. same goes for foreign press slain by Israel bulldozer

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

they don't care either u Moslem, Christian even neutralist Jews and LOVE to kill

[Caid Ivik]

Silly girl. Bulldozer is a noisy vehicle and driver had no chance to see her. And that man in white - did he just stayed to look how that machine slays her? Those people should limit grass and then do their "protests".

[Wolf]

Sooner or later, people have to get tired of killing. As long as reason exists in some form, people will realize that to continue the battles they must commit their society to destruction. Hopefully people realize that before they go through and annihilate one side or the other. Even if that happens, the problem isn't solved in the long-term. Such horrible battles divide even your own people. There are elements in the leaderships of both sides that may actually want to continue fighting. There are also elements that desperately want peace. If the battle does not stop, it will never stop, in one form or another.

[Noam]

those Jews will never admit their utterly mistake >:(

.. same goes for foreign press slain by Israel bulldozer

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

they don't care either u Moslem, Christian even neutralist Jews and LOVE to kill

Well, I wouldn't expect much from someone whose Prime Minister said that the jews must be stopped before they succeed in their plan to control the whole world. Nothing personal, you see.

More concrete - Wolfwiz, I couldn't agree with you more. The violence must be stopped. Everyone agrees on that, yet nobody suggests a way of doing it. What's an ideology worth, if it is unreachable or very hard to reach? In my opinion, at least, a solution cannot come from inside the Palestinian Authority. The UN and the EU should interfere, if they want to reach somewhere, and do it with close inspection of what is done with their money. While the Palestinian people is extremely poor, Arafat's property is approximately 800 Million Dollars, Which he just took away from the EU's humanitarian assistance.

[Wolf]

Would Israel be open to a United Nations Security Council resolution authorizing peacekeepers to be sent to the region? I doubt that this is so, in addition, who would be sent? Who is unbiased? Would the French be willing to send troops, or the Germans, the Americans, the British, the Saudis? As I see it, the world's armies, with the exception of Europe and China, are a bit tied up right now. The situation, it seems, is too complicated to be solved with peacekeepers. What must be done is that people on both sides must WANT peace -- they must stop teaching each other to hate the other side. As things stand now, the medias and governments of both sides are playing off of the conflict, in a way, to insure unity. It has been done throughout history. In other words, people must WANT to stop the conflict if the conflict is ever to stop, as I see it, it doesn't seem that the leaderships of either side are really that committed to peace. If they are, they're not telling their respective combatants to stand down.

However, I would like to add that if the governments of both sides agree to peace, and say that they will stand down, and actually stand down, this is a good thing. However, the first person to break the agreement should then be seen as the aggressor, and then perhaps the UN must intervene.

[lowzeewee]

Wow you guys can really turn black to white... ::)

Let's just say UN since Palestine is not part of Europe.UN is just sitting around,muttering a few words and then going into hiding,WTF? >:(

[Wolf]

The problem with the UN is that sometimes it is designed not to work -- veto powers, cough -- and thus a solution is... elusive.

[lowzeewee]

And UN sitting around during the Iraq war as well...

Btw,why is every anti-Israel source biased? ;D :D

[Noam]

Would Israel be open to a United Nations Security Council resolution authorizing peacekeepers to be sent to the region? I doubt that this is so, in addition, who would be sent? Who is unbiased? Would the French be willing to send troops, or the Germans, the Americans, the British, the Saudis? As I see it, the world's armies, with the exception of Europe and China, are a bit tied up right now. The situation, it seems, is too complicated to be solved with peacekeepers. What must be done is that people on both sides must WANT peace -- they must stop teaching each other to hate the other side. As things stand now, the medias and governments of both sides are playing off of the conflict, in a way, to insure unity. It has been done throughout history. In other words, people must WANT to stop the conflict if the conflict is ever to stop, as I see it, it doesn't seem that the leaderships of either side are really that committed to peace. If they are, they're not telling their respective combatants to stand down.

However, I would like to add that if the governments of both sides agree to peace, and say that they will stand down, and actually stand down, this is a good thing. However, the first person to break the agreement should then be seen as the aggressor, and then perhaps the UN must intervene.

If all that matters is will of the both sides for peace, you have already half of the work done. Despite what is written in israel-sucks.com, the fraction of the Israelis who are convinced that no peace could ever be made with arabs is really small, less than 10%. On the other hand, you got the Palestinians who even after all the attempts made to make peace, still don't teach that Israel exists in their Geography lessons, and they have ceremonies in favour of their martyrs ('Shaheed'), who died while carrying out a suicide bombing. It all starts from up, specifically Arafat. No peace can be made with Yasser Arafat, ever.

They said Israel would not be willing to send international troops to its area before, but now there are international troops in the northern border with Lebanon. Israel will not be willing, but might accept troops, since no other solution can be found... Besides, I wasn't speaking of an international peace-keeping force, just mediating in the negotiation, like the US does.

Gotta run,

Noam

[Caid Ivik]

UN is no more than a discussion room. But even this is needed. It won't solve a real problem, but at least will show some possible ways. However, it is true there is no more than just technical problem: it is hard to find and destroy the source. Arafat and Jasin can be killed quickly, loss of Iraq is also painful for Hamas, Hizballah is under constant pressure beyond borders. So we have only few larger bands left. But even if these will fall, new ones will arise until all neighbouring countries are hostile to Israel. Their governments must change view on it. No other way.

[lowzeewee]

don't teach that Israel exists in their Geography lessons

Ever heard of the recent Israel "road map" issue,or whatever it is called? ;)

[Wolf]

1. I think the Iraq conflict might actually end up creating more bands of fighters if the United States does not create a free-government in time.

2. The "Road Map" was a term coined by George W. Bush, I believe. As for what it meant, I was never really sure. And as for what has happened to it, well, let's just say we ran out of gas.

[lowzeewee]

*Cough Israel-Palestine cough*

[Noam]

The so-called Road Map to Peace is Bush's plan for peace in the ME, that had in it stopping the settlements and a cease-fire for both of the sides, a few months for Abu Mazen to abolish the Hamas, the Jihad etcetera as a first step. Since Arafat didn't let Abu Mazen use the Palestinian armed forces, he couldn't do it and the first step of the Road Map was never taken.

Now let me ask you, lowzeewee - have you ever heard of the Road Map? You don't seem to know what you are talking about. And I never understand your points, what's between the road map and the Palestinian education?

Wolfwiz - The Iraqi war had to be. Either now with 94 American soldiers killed in the entire war, or in 5 years, or 10 or 20 or 50 years, when they WILL attack the western world. Don't forget that we're dealing here with fundamentalists. Now the US must establish a democratic stable regime, and when that is done, the war in Iraq is officially a success.

[lowzeewee]

Sorry I thought the road map was Israel claiming Palestine as part of Israel. :-[ Sorry my wrong. :-

[Caid Ivik]

Wolfwiz, free government is one thing. Other one is that even free government can start same hatred against coalition as Baas party did (and still does in Syria). Let it is even a theocracy, ok, but not hostile. That's a logic.

Road map is this; rather obsolete now, but better than nothing:

Press Statement

Office of the Spokesman

Washington, DC

April 30, 2003

A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

The following is a performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, under the auspices of the Quartet [the United States, European Union, United Nations, and Russia]. The destination is a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005, as presented in President Bush’s speech of 24 June, and welcomed by the EU, Russia and the UN in the 16 July and 17 September Quartet Ministerial statements.

A two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will only be achieved through an end to violence and terrorism, when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror and willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty, and through Israel’s readiness to do what is necessary for a democratic Palestinian state to be established, and a clear, unambiguous acceptance by both parties of the goal of a negotiated settlement as described below. The Quartet will assist and facilitate implementation of the plan, starting in Phase I, including direct discussions between the parties as required. The plan establishes a realistic timeline for implementation. However, as a performance-based plan, progress will require and depend upon the good faith efforts of the parties, and their compliance with each of the obligations outlined below. Should the parties perform their obligations rapidly, progress within and through the phases may come sooner than indicated in the plan. Non-compliance with obligations will impede progress.

A settlement, negotiated between the parties, will result in the emergence of an independent, democratic, and viable Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel and its other neighbors. The settlement will resolve the Israel-Palestinian conflict, and end the occupation that began in 1967, based on the foundations of the Madrid Conference, the principle of land for peace, UNSCRs 242, 338 and 1397, agreements previously reached by the parties, and the initiative of Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah – endorsed by the Beirut Arab League Summit – calling for acceptance of Israel as a neighbor living in peace and security, in the context of a comprehensive settlement. This initiative is a vital element of international efforts to promote a comprehensive peace on all tracks, including the Syrian-Israeli and Lebanese-Israeli tracks.

The Quartet will meet regularly at senior levels to evaluate the parties' performance on implementation of the plan. In each phase, the parties are expected to perform their obligations in parallel, unless otherwise indicated.

Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003

In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services. Palestinians undertake comprehensive political reform in preparation for statehood, including drafting a Palestinian constitution, and free, fair and open elections upon the basis of those measures. Israel takes all necessary steps to help normalize Palestinian life. Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied from September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed at that time, as security performance and cooperation progress. Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report.

At the outset of Phase I:

Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.

Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.

Security

Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.

Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption.

GOI takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction; destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other measures specified in the Tenet work plan.

Relying on existing mechanisms and on-the-ground resources, Quartet representatives begin informal monitoring and consult with the parties on establishment of a formal monitoring mechanism and its implementation.

Implementation, as previously agreed, of U.S. rebuilding, training and resumed security cooperation plan in collaboration with outside oversight board (U.S.–Egypt–Jordan). Quartet support for efforts to achieve a lasting, comprehensive cease-fire.

All Palestinian security organizations are consolidated into three services reporting to an empowered Interior Minister.

Restructured/retrained Palestinian security forces and IDF counterparts progressively resume security cooperation and other undertakings in implementation of the Tenet work plan, including regular senior-level meetings, with the participation of U.S. security officials.

Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms of support for groups supporting and engaging in violence and terror.

All donors providing budgetary support for the Palestinians channel these funds through the Palestinian Ministry of Finance's Single Treasury Account.

As comprehensive security performance moves forward, IDF withdraws progressively from areas occupied since September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed prior to September 28, 2000. Palestinian security forces redeploy to areas vacated by IDF.

Palestinian Institution-Building

Immediate action on credible process to produce draft constitution for Palestinian statehood. As rapidly as possible, constitutional committee circulates draft Palestinian constitution, based on strong parliamentary democracy and cabinet with empowered prime minister, for public comment/debate. Constitutional committee proposes draft document for submission after elections for approval by appropriate Palestinian institutions.

Appointment of interim prime minister or cabinet with empowered executive authority/decision-making body.

GOI fully facilitates travel of Palestinian officials for PLC and Cabinet sessions, internationally supervised security retraining, electoral and other reform activity, and other supportive measures related to the reform efforts.

Continued appointment of Palestinian ministers empowered to undertake fundamental reform. Completion of further steps to achieve genuine separation of powers, including any necessary Palestinian legal reforms for this purpose.

Establishment of independent Palestinian election commission. PLC reviews and revises election law.

Palestinian performance on judicial, administrative, and economic benchmarks, as established by the International Task Force on Palestinian Reform.

As early as possible, and based upon the above measures and in the context of open debate and transparent candidate selection/electoral campaign based on a free, multi-party process, Palestinians hold free, open, and fair elections.

GOI facilitates Task Force election assistance, registration of voters, movement of candidates and voting officials. Support for NGOs involved in the election process.

GOI reopens Palestinian Chamber of Commerce and other closed Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem based on a commitment that these institutions operate strictly in accordance with prior agreements between the parties.

Humanitarian Response

Israel takes measures to improve the humanitarian situation. Israel and Palestinians implement in full all recommendations of the Bertini report to improve humanitarian conditions, lifting curfews and easing restrictions on movement of persons and goods, and allowing full, safe, and unfettered access of international and humanitarian personnel.

AHLC reviews the humanitarian situation and prospects for economic development in the West Bank and Gaza and launches a major donor assistance effort, including to the reform effort.

GOI and PA continue revenue clearance process and transfer of funds, including arrears, in accordance with agreed, transparent monitoring mechanism.

Civil Society

Continued donor support, including increased funding through PVOs/NGOs, for people to people programs, private sector development and civil society initiatives.

Settlements

GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.

Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).

Phase II: Transition -- June 2003-December 2003

In the second phase, efforts are focused on the option of creating an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and attributes of sovereignty, based on the new constitution, as a way station to a permanent status settlement. As has been noted, this goal can be achieved when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror, willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty. With such a leadership, reformed civil institutions and security structures, the Palestinians will have the active support of the Quartet and the broader international community in establishing an independent, viable, state.

Progress into Phase II will be based upon the consensus judgment of the Quartet of whether conditions are appropriate to proceed, taking into account performance of both parties. Furthering and sustaining efforts to normalize Palestinian lives and build Palestinian institutions, Phase II starts after Palestinian elections and ends with possible creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders in 2003. Its primary goals are continued comprehensive security performance and effective security cooperation, continued normalization of Palestinian life and institution-building, further building on and sustaining of the goals outlined in Phase I, ratification of a democratic Palestinian constitution, formal establishment of office of prime minister, consolidation of political reform, and the creation of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.

International Conference: Convened by the Quartet, in consultation with the parties, immediately after the successful conclusion of Palestinian elections, to support Palestinian economic recovery and launch a process, leading to establishment of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders.

Such a meeting would be inclusive, based on the goal of a comprehensive Middle East peace (including between Israel and Syria, and Israel and Lebanon), and based on the principles described in the preamble to this document.

Arab states restore pre-intifada links to Israel (trade offices, etc.).

Revival of multilateral engagement on issues including regional water resources, environment, economic development, refugees, and arms control issues.

New constitution for democratic, independent Palestinian state is finalized and approved by appropriate Palestinian institutions. Further elections, if required, should follow approval of the new constitution.

Empowered reform cabinet with office of prime minister formally established, consistent with draft constitution.

Continued comprehensive security performance, including effective security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.

Creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders through a process of Israeli-Palestinian engagement, launched by the international conference. As part of this process, implementation of prior agreements, to enhance maximum territorial contiguity, including further action on settlements in conjunction with establishment of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.

Enhanced international role in monitoring transition, with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet.

Quartet members promote international recognition of Palestinian state, including possible UN membership.

Phase III: Permanent Status Agreement and End of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict -- 2004 – 2005

Progress into Phase III, based on consensus judgment of Quartet, and taking into account actions of both parties and Quartet monitoring. Phase III objectives are consolidation of reform and stabilization of Palestinian institutions, sustained, effective Palestinian security performance, and Israeli-Palestinian negotiations aimed at a permanent status agreement in 2005.

Second International Conference: Convened by Quartet, in consultation with the parties, at beginning of 2004 to endorse agreement reached on an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and formally to launch a process with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet, leading to a final, permanent status resolution in 2005, including on borders, Jerusalem, refugees, settlements; and, to support progress toward a comprehensive Middle East settlement between Israel and Lebanon and Israel and Syria, to be achieved as soon as possible.

Continued comprehensive, effective progress on the reform agenda laid out by the Task Force in preparation for final status agreement.

Continued sustained and effective security performance, and sustained, effective security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.

International efforts to facilitate reform and stabilize Palestinian institutions and the Palestinian economy, in preparation for final status agreement.

Parties reach final and comprehensive permanent status agreement that ends the Israel-Palestinian conflict in 2005, through a settlement negotiated between the parties based on UNSCR 242, 338, and 1397, that ends the occupation that began in 1967, and includes an agreed, just, fair, and realistic solution to the refugee issue, and a negotiated resolution on the status of Jerusalem that takes into account the political and religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide, and fulfills the vision of two states, Israel and sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestine, living side-by-side in peace and security.

Arab state acceptance of full normal relations with Israel and security for all the states of the region in the context of a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace.

(End)

Released on April 30, 2003