US vs. France

[Babylon]

I've been reading the jokes thread and have been wondering about this for a while now. What's with the US hating the France, calling them cowards and all.

Those guys helped you become a nation you know. They've send you the statue of liberty. Is the average US mind only capable of thinking 60 years or less in the past?

Calling oneself gracefull...

[Gobalopper]

Are you saying France doesn't do the exact same thing?

[Caid Ivik]

Ok, France sold Statue of Liberty to USA. But USA, for example, twice took them from misery in world wars.

[Babylon]

France is not happy with the way US handles things in the Middle-East to say the least. But I see a lot of anger directed to the French because of that. And everyone is bringing up the two world wars. Then saying France should be gratefull for that and shouldn't bitch on the US so much, because the US did save them. (Just like Caid did just now).

I think France has no obligation to the US for saving them, if it wasn't for the French the US independence war against Brittain would have taken a lot longer, that is IF they could win that without the French.

And the Statue of Liberty was a gift.

[Acriku]

France is suppose to be our allies, and is not suppose to be against us during a conflict. We supported them (wrongly) right before the Vietnam War broke out, because we were allies.

[alchemi2]

i dont like french stance on Middle East but values change. France & Britain are old enemies agincort, napoleonic wars but then allies ww1 ww2 now different again remeber the falklands exocets but thats how it goes.

French cant help being french probably all that garlic and uht milk yuck.

best army france has forign legion lol

[Babylon]

France is suppose to be our allies, and is not suppose to be against us during a conflict. We supported them (wrongly) right before the Vietnam War broke out, because we were allies.

But being once allie doesn't mean you have to support the other one's oppinion now matter how stupid you think it is! France doesn't think the US is acting very smart (I agree with France here, incase you didn't notice), allies can think that of eachother. If your friend doesn't want you to jump of a bridge no matter how much you want to jump of it, it doesn't mean he isn't your friend anymore. (Unless you start calling him a coward that is ::))

[Caid Ivik]

In fact, USA were a british colony, and they had fierce fights of and after liberation. Now they are the closest allies.

[Babylon]

In fact, USA were a british colony, and they had fierce fights of and after liberation. Now they are the closest allies.

Wauw! I didn't know that, they don't teach history on school here...

[exatreide]

The Rebels were doing fine with out the french, their assitence never came into play untill late in the war, a few supplies and advisers thats it. They say the americans faught for freedom becouse thats what happend the french were also fighting the british in Europe. America was just a side thought.

Not to mention that whole war of 1812 deal to......the french didnt do shizzle for that and they were fighting the Brits again....

Hmmmmm yes not to mention that france got kicked out of 9/10th of its possesions world wide. To defend the French is like defen.....Well some body has to defend the french they aint going to do it themselfs :)

[Babylon]

The Rebels were doing fine with out the french, their assitence never came into play untill late in the war, a few supplies and advisers thats it. They say the americans faught for freedom becouse thats what happend the french were also fighting the british in Europe. America was just a side thought.

Not to mention that whole war of 1812 deal to......the french didnt do shizzle for that and they were fighting the Brits again....

Ok, it came in handy that they could fight the Brittish by saying it was to help the Americans. But that didn't change the fact that their help, helped a lot. The British where way stronger then the rebels.

Hmmmmm yes not to mention that france got kicked out of 9/10th of its possesions world wide. To defend the French is like defen.....Well some body has to defend the french they aint going to do it themselfs :)

So have the Dutch, British, Portugees, Belgiums and Spanish. They all had a lot of colonies and now have allmost none left, but you don't go calling them cowards.

The whole thing is: France is against the US invading Iraq and US citizens blame them for not agreeing with US government. I have even seen as far as an American calling France an enemy of the US. Bush and his administration is loving it. "As long as they blame the French, they won't blame us."

[Andrew]

Umm, no one really has any colonies anymore. They are mostly independant countries.

[offtopic]

Oops forgot the U.S. has Iraq and Afghanistan as colonies. ;) ;)

Well at least they're not letting these "terrorist" countries grow into big problems by not attacking them, say like before WWII they did nothing against Hitler's will and let him do anything he wanted. (no one wanted another world war)

[/offtopic]

[ordos45]

Actually Ex, if it wasn't for the French Fleet you would be singing "God Save the Queen". The French Fleet managed to box in Cornwallis's forces by sea, bombarding them from the ocean, while holding off the British Fleet. If the British Fleet hadn't been held off by the French, it could have allowed Cornwallis and his forces to escape to sea, land elswhere on the coast, and begin again.

France has its own worries with Iraq. Look how much oil was at stake...the French, last I checked, don't have the huge backup oil supplies we do. And besides, France had to oppose, look at the articles popping up on all sorts of media about modern French weapons being found in stockpiles.

My personal favorite stupidity by the USA in all this is renaming French Fries and French Toast with "Liberty" or "Freedom" names. ><

My personal favorite stupidity in France in all of this is that protestors would protest at the US Embassy in Paris all day, scream about the evil US pigs and such, and then go eat dinner at the nearby McDonald's. :)

[Mahdi]

The Rebels were doing fine with out the french, their assitence never came into play untill late in the war, a few supplies and advisers thats it. They say the americans faught for freedom becouse thats what happend the french were also fighting the british in Europe. America was just a side thought.

Not to mention that whole war of 1812 deal to......the french didnt do shizzle for that and they were fighting the Brits again....

Hmmmmm yes not to mention that france got kicked out of 9/10th of its possesions world wide. To defend the French is like defen.....Well some body has to defend the french they aint going to do it themselfs :)

You are kidding, right? Right? I hope so....

"Americans" would have been crushed in the "revolution" (which is technically a civil war) had it not been the french. Practically every shot they used was made in France. It was the French that blocked the British retreat, whcih had they been able to do, they would have easily re-formed and anihilated (that's right, annihilated) the "American" forces.

Also, the American revolution had little to nothign to do with freedom. Nor was it much of a revolution. It was the trading of one elite for another, and was based soley on money.

As for the French military history being horrible, it's a hell of a lot more successfull than the American military history (althoguh if you get right down to it, Canada technically has the best military record in the world. We've never once lost a war).

First, the Francs were one of the main German tribes that beat up the Roman Empire.

The Caloringians, (Charlemagne's tribe, long before he was around) is noted world wide for their great abilities at war and plunder, and creat two main territories: Neustria (France) and Austrasia (Germany). Yes, that's right, The French actually created and ran Germany. This was 486 under Clovis.

As the years go by the Merovingians (Clovis's successors) become the major player in western europe, a large part due to there incrdible skills in war and great military victory's. There kingdom is now called Francia (which includes Neustrasia, Austrasia, and Burgundy).

Next, Charlemagne, in the late 700's, creates one of the most powerful empires in the european world, and is even crowned the Roman Empire by the pope. This is, again, due entirly to the French having such an incredible military, allowing him to capture so much territory. The entire basis for this empire was war, without war they could not survive, so they fought, and won, every single year. In a side note, this also casues a small renassaince. Reason it eventually fell was becasue of unsuitable rulers (after Charlemagne) and a lack of liguistic unity. Not out of war.

Ever heard of William the Conqeror? He captured England. He was Norman, or, in other words, French.

The crusades? Guess who led the first, successful one. The one that captured Jerusalem. That's right, the French.

Hundred years war between France and England? French won.

The French were the first to re-instate the standing army since Rome fell, giving them, again, the msot powerfull military in the world.

Less skip over some other wars (if we didn't this post would go on forever) and get to some of the better known. Should note, though,t hat the Burbons ruled many more kingdoms than just France.

French Revolutionary wars and Napoleonic wars: Basically, for thirty years, the French kicked EVERYBODIES asses.

(Between these two the French crush several revolutions)

Crimean War: British and French cream the Russians.

WW1: French lose, but the Americans didn't save them, despite what you mgiht have heard in your 6th grade history class. German defeat was inevitable before they joined the picture, and most allied troops ebelived that while having the Americans join the war was a psychological blow against the Germans, they were jsut as dangerous to the allies as they were to the Germans in the trenches.

WW2: Americans did have a major part to play, however it was relaly the Russians who won this one. Had American shared a border with Germany, and not France, it would have been crushed just as easily.

Short, quick overview. Many, many, many wars and such overlooked. The French have had both victories and losses, but so has everyone else. And the French victories have been bigger than most.

[Acriku]

France is suppose to be our allies, and is not suppose to be against us during a conflict. We supported them (wrongly) right before the Vietnam War broke out, because we were allies.

But being once allie doesn't mean you have to support the other one's oppinion now matter how stupid you think it is! France doesn't think the US is acting very smart (I agree with France here, incase you didn't notice), allies can think that of eachother. If your friend doesn't want you to jump of a bridge no matter how much you want to jump of it, it doesn't mean he isn't your friend anymore. (Unless you start calling him a coward that is ::))

Not when a conflict is going on! When a conflict is going on, you take sides with your allies and that's it. You do not take the side of the enemy(to bring up Bush's 'either for us or against us' mode of thinking) , not as allies. Perhaps we need to explain what an ally is?

[Andrew]

Wasn't Joan of Arc French? :)

EDIT -

Ally - A friendly nation

An associate who provides assistance.

[Mahdi]

Wasn't Joan of Arc French? :)

Hundred years war, however she mgiht not have ever existed as she is presented to today. Napoleon wanted to make a hero for France so he took an obscure story (joan) and blew it up.

[Dunenewt]

William The Conquerer was Norman, therefore Norwegian/Danish.

[Mahdi]

Meh, Normandy was a French Duchy.

[Dunenewt]

Normandy was given by the French to a group of Vikings.

[Mahdi]

Given to them as a French Duchy, no different than giving land to any other Feudal lord. They quickly adopted French culture, language, and religion as there own, becomign French in all but there direct ancestry, although intermarriage helped that out.

[Babylon]

Not when a conflict is going on! When a conflict is going on, you take sides with your allies and that's it. You do not take the side of the enemy(to bring up Bush's 'either for us or against us' mode of thinking) , not as allies. Perhaps we need to explain what an ally is?

I know what an ally is. But once again, an ally doesn't have to follow the other one's lead blindly. Next thing that you will say is that if the US tries to conquer the whole of South America and Africa and the rest of NATO doesn't join, they aren't allies anymore. (Just blowing things up, to clearify my perspective)

[Acriku]

If a country goes into conflict with another country, the invading country's allies must not internationally belittle the invading country for their own personal reasons. If they will not support their allied country and be supportive, then they aren't allies, and should break off.

[Babylon]

If a country goes into conflict with another country, the invading country's allies must not internationally belittle the invading country for their own personal reasons. If they will not support their allied country and be supportive, then they aren't allies, and should break off.

From their point of view France is telling the US that they are being stupid for invading Iraq. This is not betraying your ally, it is helping your ally with what they think is good advice.

If you where my friend and you wanted to kill a guy because he raped your sister and I told you that I think that killing that guy is a bad idea, it's not betraying you. If you then call me a traitor and a coward for not helping you killing that guy, then you are the stupid one. A major asshole infact and you would be the one guilty of ending the friendship.

Just as much as the US is placing all the build friendships at risk by continueing their ongoing warmongering, not listining to others and blaming them for not helping the US.

[exatreide]

[qoute]

The French were the first to re-instate the standing army since Rome fell, giving them, again, the msot powerfull military in the world.[/qoute]

Actully it was the Ottomans...

And it was mostly the british and the turks who defeated the Russians in the crimean war..