GO BUSH!!! YEEAAAA!!!

[Dante]

Eww, yuck! How could something that wrinkly ever be a child?

I mean I know he has the brains of an infant, and that's insulting to infants, but still...

[Wolf]

Anyone ever read that book "Bushisms: The Accidental Wit and Wisdom of our 43rd President" (I think that's the title). It's hysterically funny, no matter whose side you're own. Even funnier, there's enough of it to fill a calender, and I think I'm going to go get my 2004 Bushisms calender.

[Inoculator9]

I read it in a book store, lol :P Comfy chair and a coffee along with it ;)

[Edric O]

Hey, I have another question. Say, what if I make a song, in "your/the" communist system, will I be able to own that song too, or is it aviable to everyone, like P2P is today, only legally?

It would be made legally available to everyone. In socialism, you will also receive a one-time sum of money for it. In communism, you should already have everything you need, so you can create art for art's sake.

Edric; Sorry about that, Yes, I am new here, and I am beginning to think that you people have this discussion before...

...more than once...

All right, now I see what you mean. Communism isn't so much an economic system as it is a social system. The economics come only into part when a certain social mind-set is achieved.

Namely, people overcome the need to amass wealth/power and begin working towards the betterment of society. (That's what the characters in Star Trek claim is the driving force in the Federation; the goal of bettering oneself.)

The motivation comes in not from avoiding poverty (the gun example) or from accumulating wealth (capitalism). The real motivation comes in because you desire to better YOURSELF -- which does not mean the accumulation of wealth or possession, but the real "fruits of your labor", you desire to become better, and so therefore, you work better. That is how communism (not Stalinism! I got it!) works, as opposed to Stalinism...

Stalinsim, or, the Soviet Union, wasn't really communist, but something using the communist name/appearence to win its own political power. That makes sense, I guess you could say the same of Democracy/Capitalism in some states. (Kind of like Pre-war Iraq, where Saddam would be unanimously elected President.) What about China? Is there such a thing as a capitalist/communsit hybrid? Perhaps, something that we evolve into before achieving the mind-set of... say... the Star Trek world? (I'm not really asking if one exists, because that's apparent. I'm asking if that's the ONLY way to achieve that kind of society).

...am I getting the picture? If not, feel free to explain. I really should learn this.

Actually, I think that's better than I would have said it myself. You've summed up everything very nicely!

About China, I think you could say that it represents the Worst of Both Worlds. It combines the worst part of Stalinism (the oppressive totalitarian dictatorship) with the worst part of Capitalism (the capitalist economic model). So the end result is a half-capitalist/half-stalinist dictatorship which claims to be socialist... Probably one of the weirdest hybrids in history.

As for your second question: The whole reason why the intermediate system called socialism must exist is because society cannot jump directly from capitalism to communism. People would not be able to make it work, because they would still have the capitalist mindset. There is no single one-size-fits-all formula for going from capitalism to socialism and then onward to communism. It could be peaceful or violent, gradual or sudden. And it will probably be different for different countries.

[ordos45]

Found this on someone I know who keeps track of Politics (A Bush Resume):

Past Work Experience

Ran for congress and lost.

Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.

Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas; company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.

With father's help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

Accomplishments in Previous Positions

Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union.

Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog-ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

Set record for most executions by any governor in American history.

Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my father's appointments to the Supreme Court.

Accomplishments As President

Attacked and took over two countries.

Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.

Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

First president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.

First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in U.S. history.

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

Set the record for most campaign fundraising trips than any other president in U.S. history.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.

Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in U.S. history.

Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in U.S. history.

Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in U.S. history.

Presided over the biggest energy crises in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

Presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)

Dissolved more international treaties than any president in U.S. history.

My presidency is the most secretive and unaccountable of any in U.S. history.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history (the 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleezza Rice, has an Exxon oil tanker named after her).

First president in U.S. history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.

Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

First president in U.S. history to order a U.S. attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation.

Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in U.S. history.

First president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the human rights commission.

First president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the elections monitoring board.

Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in U.S. history.

Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

Withdrew from the World Court of Law.

Refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

First president in U.S. history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. elections).

All-time U.S. (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

My biggest lifetime campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in U.S. history.

First president in U.S. history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

First president to run and hide when the U.S. came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

First U.S. president to establish a secret shadow government.

Took the biggest world sympathy for the U.S. after 9/11, and in less than a year made the U.S. the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in U.S. and world history).

With a policy of 'disengagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

Fist U.S. president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

First U.S. president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the U.S. than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated U.S. law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.

Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive.'

Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capital building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

In the 18 months following the 9/11 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.

Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in U.S. history.

In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the U.S. has ever been since the Civil War.

Entered office with the strongest economy in U.S. history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

Records and References

At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available)

AWOL from National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.

Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. (Even though it is known I used cocaine.)

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father's library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (they can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)

[Gobalopper]

Counties won by Gore: 677

Counties won by Bush: 2,434

Population of counties won by Gore: 127 million

Population of counties won by Bush: 143 million

Square miles of country won by Gore: 580,000

Square miles of country won by Bush: 2,427,000

States won by Gore: 19

States won by Bush: 29

Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2

Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1

[Anathema]

Where's that from Gob? And why do they call states counties while America never had an aristocratic system ???

And Gore did win the popular vote. He lost because Bush deliberately had the recount of the Florida votes interrupted, and even without Florida he still had more overall votes then Bush.

[Acriku]

Counties make up states.

And Gore did win the popular vote. He lost because Bush deliberately had the recount of the Florida votes interrupted, and even without Florida he still had more overall votes then Bush.

Popular votes do not make someone a president. It's the number of electorial votes given to each state, added up. Bush came out the winner. And it was the Supreme Court that ended it, not Bush. Some say, however, that the SC should never have seen this case, and some way they should have.

[Inoculator9]

Where the heck did that crap come from Gob?

[Acriku]

http://www.republican.villanova.edu/history.html

You know, you can always google it you lazy bastard ;)

[Guest Eric E.]

Hey, I have another question. Say, what if I make a song, in "your/the" communist system, will I be able to own that song too, or is it aviable to everyone, like P2P is today, only legally?

It would be made legally available to everyone. In socialism, you will also receive a one-time sum of money for it. In communism, you should already have everything you need, so you can create art for art's sake.

For art's sake?

I'd rather sit in my chair all day watch tv and eat fish&chips. Sounds (And tastes) much better than making art for art's sake

[Anathema]

I know how the electoral system in the States works Acriku.

So what you and that Republican site are saying is basicly that it's a good thing that the US has a system in wich the candidate most popular and respected is not necessarily the next president?

Edric, you believe that in the future people will think differently from what Eric just said? Don't get me wrong, I despise people who don't do anyting except sitting and eating (and if I were rich I'd still get a job to prevent me from becoming like that) but it's what a lot of people would do if basic luxuries (like a TV and fish and chips) are garantued anyway.

[Guest Eric E.]

If those luxuries are garantued, I'd want more luxuries. The human race will always have a weakness, like having a need for more power.

I have a 100 hertz BIG screen, But I don't like it.. I want a bigger one! I want laser beaming projectors! unfortunately I can't have those because *The communist world* has no funds for it.

Also, If I work harder, I still wouldn't get my laser beaming projector due to lack of funds, And if there were enough funds, I want 10 Laser beaming projectors, and 50 flatpanels.

Heaven is knocking at my door.

And the best thing is: I Don't have to do anything for it!

The fact that I can't work for something I want means I don't really have a goal.

That just totally drains all my energy and motivation out of me.

[Acriku]

So what you and that Republican site are saying is basicly that it's a good thing that the US has a system in wich the candidate most popular and respected is not necessarily the next president?

You have to look at the system's history. If it was by popular vote alone, smaller states would be ignored entirely. What would be the use if bigger states are all you need? Screw the small states! This was reasoned out by makers, and made an electorial college system that would give smaller states enough electorial votes to make politicians care about the smaller states, as much as the larger states. It was kind of a compromise, if you will.

[Inoculator9]

Yep, lol, I'm lazy :P And the electoral college looks worse and worse every time I think about it :P

[Acriku]

Make up a system that recognizes smaller states, and accounts for the larger states' populations, and maybe we can make our own little country. ;)

[Edric O]

For art's sake?

I'd rather sit in my chair all day watch tv and eat fish&chips. Sounds (And tastes) much better than making art for art's sake

See, that's exactly why it will take several hundred years of socialism before we finally reach communism. We will not reach communism until this way of thinking has become very rare. In the mean time we will have socialism, which guarantees your basic necessities, but no more than that. If you want that TV and those fish&chips, you're going to have to work for them.

If those luxuries are garantued, I'd want more luxuries. The human race will always have a weakness, like having a need for more power.

I have a 100 hertz BIG screen, But I don't like it.. I want a bigger one! I want laser beaming projectors! unfortunately I can't have those because *The communist world* has no funds for it.

Also, If I work harder, I still wouldn't get my laser beaming projector due to lack of funds, And if there were enough funds, I want 10 Laser beaming projectors, and 50 flatpanels.

Like I said, this is the kind of thinking that will need to become very rare before communism can be achieved. It's the typically capitalist idea that money brings happiness (even when that money is completely wasted on totally useless things). Hopefully, most people will understand that there's more to life than just a really big TV...

But the more immediate goal (socialism) doesn't require any change in the way most people think about life. You have a basic standard of living guaranteed, and if you just want more and more, you'll have to work hard for it.

[Guest Eric E.]

See, that's exactly why it will take several hundred years of socialism before we finally reach communism. We will not reach communism until this way of thinking has become very rare.

Yes, Why would I work my ass off if I don't even get to see the result?

But the more immediate goal (socialism) doesn't require any change in the way most people think about life. You have a basic standard of living guaranteed, and if you just want more and more, you'll have to work hard for it.

The result of my hard labour will pay off several hundred years later, So why would I work hard? There's a fat chance I wouldn't get my 50 flat panels even If I worked Hard.

[The_Sadukar]

Yes, Why would I work my ass off if I don't even get to see the result?

for the greater good of mankind, perhaps

[Guest Eric E.]

LOL, Don't be a fool. You don't really think 6 billion people are going to invest in ''the greater good of mankind'' ?

Not now,

Not in a hundred years.

[Babylon]

thats a great way to start..

[Guest Eric E.]

It's the typically capitalist idea that money brings happiness (even when that money is completely wasted on totally useless things). Hopefully, most people will understand that there's more to life than just a really big TV...

If you don't waste your money, then it can make things alot easier for you.

Which automatically brings happiness, this is not always true though, It depens on your personal, financial situation.

Unfortunately, most people think that there's nothing more in life than having a tv and eating fish&chips.

All these things combined make it impossible for communism (as edric O discribed it) to exist.

StarTrek is diffrent from this, They have food Replicators. Too bad things like that can't be made with our current technology.

[Scrinlord]

See, that's exactly why it will take several hundred years of socialism before we finally reach communism. We will not reach communism until this way of thinking has become very rare.

which is exactly why we will never have communism. it is a great idea in theory, but people do not work that way. people do not conform to a perfect model that you can fit to your government theory. people want to improve themselves, to improve their standard of living. and deep down, people want to do things for themselves, not just have the government give them everything.

communism works just fine for things like ants, and bees. it works just fine for things that have no compulsion to improve. people, would rather work for themselves, than for the benifit of society. this is not just a cultural thkought, this is a basic human thought, part of our emotions. you cannot change that thought without changing and destroying basic human nature, making us less than we could be.

[Acriku]

We either need a drastic drop in population, or hundreds of years preparing for defense against enemies from the skies, for communism to work.

[Dante]

We could genetically engineer basic human nature (Me, ME, ME!) out of ourselves.