Satan...a decent guy?

[Acriku]

My mind tingles with anticipation...

God doesn't take the choice from you. He is just like a parent which was showing what he knew as right (he KNEW, if we consider him perfect which is a requirement to be God). There is only ONE truth, should it be theist or not. Thus God, in a theist model, is the one who wishes to lurn others good (=true) things (it's not imposed, we got the choice from the moment we chose soemthing else). It is not because of God that people doing bad things get unhappy, but simply because he cannot force us to a true way of happiness and keep us free.

First off, what choice are you talking about? Second, perfection is not a requirement for a god, like Zeus for instance. All you need is a supernatural attribute or ability, like Pluto's immortality. Or the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god's infinite-self.

Also, you are referring to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god's omniscience, right? In the bible, god is portrayed many times as not knowing certain things. Like the hide-and-seek game the god plays with Adam and Eve, asking what happened. When Cain slayed Abel, god asked where Abel was, seeming to be unknowing of what had taken place. God didn't seem to know at all that the snake possessed by Satan would convince Eve to take the fruit and eat it, if his rage afterwards is honest. I could go on.

Also, do not think of things in black and white. There doesn't have be one truth, part of Christianity can be right, and part of the Islam. Or none are right. (To be right or wrong, there must be a tangible concept, like the belief in a specific god. Lack of a belief is not tangible, and therefore cannot be right or wrong. A person who not only lacks a belief, but declares the unexistence of another being or concept, then it becomes tangible and can be right or wrong.)

A god being the TRUTH, does not necessarily need to wish to 'lurn' others to good. Especially when this TRUE god denies the knowledge of good from them in the first place. And does good equal true? Of course not. And if you are not going to blame god for the bad things on Earth, then you must also not give thanks to god for the good things on Earth.

Thus, Satan (if he exists, I still did't concluded) is not like you said.

Can you tell me how you concluded to that from above?

How's that for a first glance? ;)

Acriku's arguments are based on wild guesses about events which he believes never happened. Now how much sense does that make?

Christian scholars studied the Greek mythologies from the West, but they did not believe it. They made assumptions about it, like any scholar would do, and talked about what happened here or there. Is that sensible? Yes.

Actually, Acriku, I'm afraid you're one of the millions who did the burning and stoning. You show utter intolerance for any other point of view than your own...

Where is my intolerance? I showed my view. You challenged it, and now I am challenging your challenge. This is the basic procedure for a discussion. Do you want me to concede after someone challenges my view? I hope not!

And now for the long-awaited refutation of Acriku's arguments. (don't get me wrong, Acriku, I love making up "what if" scenarios too, but I never take them seriously, like you did)

This isn't a "what if" scenario, this is expressing my views on Satan, and how bad he really is. The battle has begun!

Ah, so Satan is the Osama Bin Laden of heaven... so how does that make him a nice guy again?

You undermine the significance of the situation. These are angels. Not petty humans who make mistakes and sin like there's no tomorrow. To be blatant, they are the kiss-a$$es to god. When 1/3 of the angels go against god, following this "evil" Satan, it brings light to how "evil" Satan really is. Ah, but there's more...

You've completely twisted the original meaning of the story... Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence and bliss. Like happy children with no responsibilities. By giving them knowledge of good and evil, satan took away their innocence and burdened them with responsibilities. He didn't "free" them - on the contrary, he placed a heavy burden on their shoulders.

They were in a state of ignorance and bliss, they didn't know anything except what god told them. Their minds were slaves to god's will, and power. They couldn't go against god's will, they were drones! I would rather be an individual, going through life with heavy burdens and responsibilities, knowing that I am independent from any god, and that I can do it myself. Satan brought Adam and Eve into our reality, and I would bless him everyday if I believed in him.

You really hate God, don't you?

Anyway, the point was that the snake, just like Adam and Eve, had willingly done what Satan told him. He was not a victim

That was a sidetrack...but I got myself back on track. So now snakes talk by themselves...interesting. So they lost all mechanisms that enable them to talk, and any trace of them talking during all the commotion of god's pissy fit? It doesn't say in the bible that it can't talk anymore...

WTF...? Chinese tradition? Okay, so the Chinese use different symbolism... So what? What does Chinese tradition have to do with Judeo-Christian beliefs??

I refused the Christianity's assessment of the Dragon, so I borrow one assessment that I agree more with, which is from Chinese tradition.

My conclusion: You've got waaaaay too much time on your hands.

Really, Acriku, you should have posted this in the Joke thread... You're not actually serious, right?

This was a one-nighter, didn't take me long (an hour I think, with a half hour of research into the KJV bible). And besides, school is one week from over, there is no homework, and I'm bored. :P

Of course I'm not serious, if I was then I would believe it wouldn't I? But I am not joking either. This is indifferent, really.

[TMA_1]

Christian scholars studied the Greek mythologies from the West, but they did not believe it. They made assumptions about it, like any scholar would do, and talked about what happened here or there. Is that sensible? Yes.

You are by no means a scholar of any kind.lol That is just the truth man, so do a lot more homework, and dont call yourself things you are not.

Also, he meant that with all you do all the time, that you have way too much time on your hands. all you do is debate this stuff over and over. and then if somebody actually makes you emotional, you ignore him, or only speak to him when you can get off a good jab.

and you are intolerant, not because of your arguments, but your statements. Your arguments could lead to somewhere and if anybody else pointed them out, I would answer them seriously. but I didnt for yours obviously because it would make no difference anyway. You say things, which I have shown you before personally, and attack perosnally, but seem to find ways of narcing on people and manipulating to athiest-bash people.

[Acriku]

I never called myself a scholar.

So if anybody who puts a certain amount of time that you deem is "too much" into anything, they have too much time on their hands? Or do you find this trivial, where I find it very interesting? Differences of what we find interesting, and worth time spent.

[TMA_1]

ahh... but why do you find it interesting?

see, its great you find something interesting, but if there is immature and divisive intent behind it, then it is worthless in the first place.

if it is of real value, you will express your knowledge in a decent and honest manner. I have known guys that find it interesting to snort crank and play cards at the same time.

is that worth their time? well you are right in one sense, I am not the judge of that, and it is my own opinion. I still think though in my opinion and probably others too that it is worthless. just as I think sometimes your attacks are. they seem to be founded on malice.

[sneezer3]

to Acriku

Lately, I've been thinking that Satan is...well, not that bad of a guy.

For starters, he rebelled (and convinced 1/3 of the angels, so it had to be good) against the Supreme, the AlMighty, the One, and the Lord. He was fighting against the monopoly (I am the Lord, your God, you shall not have any other God besides me.), the bully, and the United States of all that is heavenly. I respect him for that. But that's not all.

He gave that commandment to the jews for idols. That could not happend with angles because for the main thing The worship of idols is the result of the rejection of God.

Angles were made and had a simple choice. go for or agienst God. Since they were made in the perfect Environment and already had the truth either they stick with it or go agienst it. They had a free will but a little less of a choice. Why? The answer is Luke 12:48 "...To whom much is given much is required...."

Adam and Eve. An interesting story. God says, nay commands to Adam, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:...But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. Of course, Eve is left out of this peptalk.

She was in one after all she answered the Serpent(devil in the form of a snake.) In Genesis 3:3 Saying God had told her not to eat of that.

Notice the order.

3:2 And the women said unto the serpent......

3:3 But of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, ....

3:4 Then[/b[ the serpent said unto the women.........

She was created after he commanded Adam, and it does not say that God commanded Eve at all (just to clarify).

no but he did obviously according to chapter 3:2-3

Now comes the ssss-nake that is Satan. He asks a few questions, and urges Eve to know the knowledge of good and evil. He wanted Eve free of God's grasp, and of the robotic slavery to His command! That deserves a great deal of merit.

No. You are no more under robotic slavery then they were.

First he caused her dought. 3:4 "Ye shall not surely die...."

don't sound like an urge to know the knowlege of good and evil to me, sounds like an attempt to make mankind fall to the sad position it's in now.

Then he said

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, ....

that was a flat-out lie.

Now God, being the bully He is, punishes the snake for Satan's righteous deed, not Satan himself. It wasn't the snake's fault that Satan had possessed it and used it for good deeds, but God didn't want that of course. Now one good thing that God did as a consequence, was to give plants defense mechanisms (Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee), but it had bad intentions indeed (this was a mild curse).

Thats the way sin goes. Sin had entered into the world. God didn't do that just to be a bully.

Ah, I am getting offtrack. Back to that guy, Satan. In Revelations of the New Testament, Satan was a Great Dragon. In Chinese tradition, a Dragon was the symbol of happiness, immortality, procreation, fertility and activity. With these descriptions in mind, Satan was indeed very great. This is not so with Christian tradition, but Christian tradition portrays Satan as bad, evil, and horrible, so I choose a different perspective on the Dragon.

Whom also will make lots of people worship him and go after God's chosen people (the jews) to wipe them out right along with the rest of the world in deceit?

umm no. thats not good logic.

My conclusion is basically: I would worship Satan anyday over God. If I believed in either of them, of course. Satan is portrayed unfairly, and is really put into stories with only oneMichael's side, if you include the battle against the Great Dragon). I say, give Satan a chance. He doesn't seem that bad at all. Really. :)

Then i'l be praying for you. i'm not saying that just to be harsh. but because i seriuosly will.

[Egeides]

First off, what choice are you talking about? Second, perfection is not a requirement for a god, like Zeus for instance. All you need is a supernatural attribute or ability, like Pluto's immortality. Or

[GUNWOUNDS]

Hey Acriku.... I would like to have another warm calm chat with you as i have had in the past.

You may remember me.... or not... We have talked before.

i know this is a long post but i tihnk you will find it interesting so try to read it all.

One of the things i think that is going on here is that you are thinking of Satan in another way..... That is good it means you think about things.

However the way you think about God is a bit bitter sounding. You see, I dont think you need to think of God as some bill gates or something like that. Think of God as a father and things will fall into place and make much more sense.

God did not want adam and eve to lose their innocence....he wanted them to be able to come to him and ask questions about what they should do .. and gain the knowledge from him. Building their knowledge up slowly from a divine being. (what better teacher?)

He wasnt trying to make drones.. he was trying to raise a race of judges for judgement day. But thats a whole other story.

Lets get back to satan. I agree with you about satan. He is not a monster. Satan was one of the most beautiful angels that god created. His gift was music and none compared to him.

In addition Lucifer was an "ArchAngel" this means he was one of the angels who hovered by God and spread his wings to cover the glory of God. He wasnt the only one.. but he was one of the few. God's glory must be covered because it is so powerfully blinding and awesome. The ArchAngel had to be especially powerfull to be able to cover God and gaze upon him.

As we have heard in the bible God's glory is so powerful it can kill a man if he gazes upon it. Ok.. lets continue....The Story goes that lucifer was constantly exposed to god's glory and this made him even more beautiful. And Lucifer became so wanting of this wonderous power that he tried to usurp God with over 1/3 of the angels. Wow i wish i could have been there to see that... I mean how in the heck do you fight a god??... plus 2/3 of the angels?

Anyways, God didnt destroy Lucifer because God will not destroy beings that he has created. I guess its a rule of his. The immortal souls of man and the immortal spirits of the angels cannot be destroyed because God has commanded it so.

And actually god was saddened by the rebellion. It was like a son rebelling against his father. I would be heart broken if my own son whom i created decided he wanted me dead and wanted all my power for himself. And yes they say a piece of heaven was lost after that rebellion.

However the angels are not gods source of power. God could have made a replacement angel to cover the spot that is now missing lucifer. but he chose not to. obviously lucifer meant something to him.

And the true definition of hell is actually the absence of God.

That is what is going to be the real torture. because God created us we are all linked to him.. you are linked to him now but you take it for granted... the peace it brings you .. you take it for granted because you have had it all your life. The link is special. They say there will be two times that the link will be broken. The first time when the rapture comes. When the rapture comes God will remove his prescence from the earth and man will feel what it is like to be truly alone. The second time will be in the realm of hell.

I know they say hell will burn and have physical pain.. but that is not what will be hurting the most. Being void of any link to god ... being out of his prescence will torture our souls more than anything.

And whats more??.... the knowledge that god is making the second earth with all the righteous immortal souls after judgement day and that you will be left out of the whole scheme of things..

Hell is like solitary confinement... while everyone else gets to carry on with life.. you will be alone.

Thats why i believe.... i want to take part in the second half of the time continuum.. i want to be with everyone else when the new spiritual world is made. I want to be with my father who has created me and breathed life into me.

Nice talking with you Acriku ;) ;) ;) ;)

;)

[Dude_Doc]

What if nothing can exist without evil? Ever thought of why there is a positive and a negative? Why must there be two types of every species? Hell, if there was no problems in this world, what would be the point of living here instead of heaven?

[Egeides]

An orthodox priest better not come here or he may be shock for his life about this ferment for heresy hehe

:D

[sneezer3]

What if nothing can exist without evil? Ever thought of why there is a positive and a negative? Why must there be two types of every species? Hell, if there was no problems in this world, what would be the point of living here instead of heaven?

That is impossable because at one time God existed in Heaven without any evil.

and at the time of Adem and Eve we were perfect.

[Miles]

I served you just facts, no thesis. Everything i wrote is historically proved. Pure information. Of course is my intention of christian nature, but i never included the presence of anything supernatural.

So? I never said you did. My point was to the fact that politics and religion are inevitably intertwined. This is what satan in my scenerio is playing on.

Yes i clearly see the "attacks" on your "revolutionary and creative ideas" (quote, btw. you're not the first ones to come up with this :))

BTW, I never said so. I cannot speak for acriku, but my scenerio is of my own creation. Maybe someone else thought of it before, but that's not the point.

Though im always trying to be as rational as possible, i can understand them. Try one time to look through the eyes of a christian who reads your ideas. This ideas are "attacking" the basic ground of your beliefs, something you experience daily, something you really discovered for yourself.

I understand too. I merely observed the anger and fear it produced in them and found humor in their hypocrasy.

Of course it's not the right reaction to attack the author (what actually did not happen, as i see, but perhaps i missed something)

Case in point-- see the post immediately below the one I am quoting here.

, but wouldn't you try to fend off that theories or at least show your disapproval ? I see no fanaticism in that.

The fanaticism is in the immediate dismissal of any new ideas without consideration. This demonstrates the closed mindedness of the religious, and the blindness that creates. Is there any logical reason that mine or acriku's assumptions are any less viable than christian ones?

[Egeides]

The fanaticism is in the immediate dismissal of any new ideas without consideration. This demonstrates the closed mindedness of the religious, and the blindness that creates. Is there any logical reason that mine or acriku's assumptions are any less viable than christian ones?

You are making a generalization when you say "This demonstrates the closed mindedness of the religious, and the blindness that creates." since I know many that do not do this and are religious persons (me included I believe).

About logical reasons for believing in God, I do have some but I guess the topic here is about Satan, not God.

[Caid Ivik]

So Acriku believes in Satan but not in God? If you were an atheist, I could appreciate it, but...SATANIST? ;D l.o.l.

[Edric O]

Miles:

The fanaticism is in the immediate dismissal of any new ideas without consideration. This demonstrates the closed mindedness of the religious, and the blindness that creates.

Alright then... so if I tell you that the Earth is in fact shaped like a giant pretzel twisted around the horn of an invisible pink unicorn, and you don't take the time to write an essay explaining why exactly I am wrong, that makes you a fundamentalist close-minded fanatic? ::)

Is there any logical reason that mine or acriku's assumptions are any less viable than christian ones?

Seeing how they are both statements of faith, no. But then again, consider this: You are taking the concepts of God and satan from a source (namely the Bible) and then you are saying that this source is full of lies and propaganda. If so, how can your hypotetical religion assert that some parts of the Bible are true (i.e. God and satan exist), but others are intentional lies? Isn't that just a little self-contradictory?

[Edric O]

Acriku:

You undermine the significance of the situation. These are angels. Not petty humans who make mistakes and sin like there's no tomorrow. To be blatant, they are the kiss-a$$es to god. When 1/3 of the angels go against god, following this "evil" Satan, it brings light to how "evil" Satan really is. Ah, but there's more...

Again, you bring up the argument that satan is good because rebellion against an authority is somehow inherently good, no matter what the rebels and the authority stand for.

So if you've got a noble and just leader, ruling with love and kindness, and a bunch of nazi rebels who want him taken down, the rebels are the good guys...?

They were in a state of ignorance and bliss, they didn't know anything except what god told them. Their minds were slaves to god's will, and power. They couldn't go against god's will, they were drones!

Ummmm... if they couldn't go against God's will, then how come they DID go against His will by eating the fruit? ::)

I would rather be an individual, going through life with heavy burdens and responsibilities, knowing that I am independent from any god, and that I can do it myself. Satan brought Adam and Eve into our reality, and I would bless him everyday if I believed in him.

So you'd rather be free in a world of chaos, murder, injustice and suffering... than be a law-abiding citizen in a perfect Utopia where evil does not exist?

Interesting...

That was a sidetrack...but I got myself back on track. So now snakes talk by themselves...interesting. So they lost all mechanisms that enable them to talk, and any trace of them talking during all the commotion of god's pissy fit? It doesn't say in the bible that it can't talk anymore...

I thought we were discussion on the assumption that Genesis is literraly true. If you're going to argue against that assumption (which I don't support myself), then your whole satan-is-good argument falls, because the story that you're basing it on is just symbolic.

I refused the Christianity's assessment of the Dragon, so I borrow one assessment that I agree more with, which is from Chinese tradition.

The problem is that the two are completely unrelated. Their respective "dragons" are two different things altogether... But this has nothing to do with our discussion anyway...

This was a one-nighter, didn't take me long (an hour I think, with a half hour of research into the KJV bible). And besides, school is one week from over, there is no homework, and I'm bored. :P

Of course I'm not serious, if I was then I would believe it wouldn't I? But I am not joking either. This is indifferent, really.

This is what you do when you're bored? LOL. :)

But really, try to find some other passtime except bashing Christianity... no, seriously, I mean it...

[Acriku]

Sneezer:

Angles were made and had a simple choice. go for or agienst God. Since they were made in the perfect Environment and already had the truth either they stick with it or go agienst it. They had a free will but a little less of a choice. Why? The answer is Luke 12:48 "...To whom much is given much is required...."

Cite the verse that says Angels were made, and then cite the verse where there is a choice to go against or for god. And that they have free will.

She was in one after all she answered the Serpent(devil in the form of a snake.) In Genesis 3:3 Saying God had told her not to eat of that.

How do you know who told her that? God, or Adam? It would make more sense for Adam to have said it to Eve, and Eve repeating what she was told by Adam to the serpent. This is negligence on god's part, since she did not understand the seriousness of it (since it probably didn't come from god).

First he caused her dought.

Oh, perfect beings can have doubt now? Doesn't seem very perfect to me to have a conflict of morals.

don't sound like an urge to know the knowlege of good and evil to me, sounds like an attempt to make mankind fall to the sad position it's in now.

Then he said

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, ....

that was a flat-out lie.

It doesn't sound like that at all. It is only saying that god lied. And it wasn't a lie, if Satan thought to be "as gods" is to know good and evil. Not as GOD, but as gods.

God didn't do that just to be a bully.

Atleast you agree that god was being a bully...

Whom also will make lots of people worship him and go after God's chosen people (the jews) to wipe them out right along with the rest of the world in deceit?

That's what the bible says Satan will do, if it does at all - I don't know, do you trust everything that the bible says? That was one of the whole points of my post, do not trust a book that gives only one side to the story, and claims to be the truth.

Then i'l be praying for you. i'm not saying that just to be harsh. but because i seriuosly will.

That makes 10 praying for me! I do feel the love, Jesus!

[Acriku]

Egeides:

I don't take the Bible litterally so all this is irrelevant. Do you take it litterally? If so, no surprise you don't agree with it

Oh, but if it claims to be the TRUTH, it has to be taken literally. The bible does not say: do not take this literally, we were high that night.

Thus, if God is perfect he necessarily embraces this truth, not the false stuff. If you say that part of Islam is true and part of Christianity, than the whole that all this forms is the truth.

How did you come to this understanding of the necessities of a perfect being?

He does if truth also means good. Platonician trinity could explain perhaps: something that is true will also be beautiful and good (see text about the cavern). Therefore, being perfect means that he wants other's perfection too (which includes freedom, otherwise it's slavery).

Truth does not equal good. The two are separate. The truth can be good, it can be bad, or indifferent, but not only one of them. How do you know what being perfect means? This concept cannot even be grasped in our minds! We just slap it onto a god without even thinking about it, and if we did we would just end up with a hurting brain.

GUNWOUNDS:

Hey buddy, glad to have another calm person to discuss this with. They run rare these days ;)

Wow i wish i could have been there to see that... I mean how in the heck do you fight a god??... plus 2/3 of the angels?

That would indeed be interesting, too bad it didn't touch it much in the Revelations.

Anyways, God didnt destroy Lucifer because God will not destroy beings that he has created. I guess its a rule of his. The immortal souls of man and the immortal spirits of the angels cannot be destroyed because God has commanded it so.

But the physical beings he created are not exempt from this destruction of course (Think Noah...).

And actually god was saddened by the rebellion. It was like a son rebelling against his father. I would be heart broken if my own son whom i created decided he wanted me dead and wanted all my power for himself. And yes they say a piece of heaven was lost after that rebellion.

It seems we are adding human traits to a god, much like the Greeks did. A perfect being shouldn't have feelings, right? Feelings affect judgement, which is imperfect if affected. A being able to be affected by feelings is not very perfect to me.

I know they say hell will burn and have physical pain.. but that is not what will be hurting the most. Being void of any link to god ... being out of his prescence will torture our souls more than anything.

The only reference to a "hell" is the gnashing of teeth verse, which does not mention burning or pain.

Nice talking with you Acriku

Touche. :)

CAID:

So Acriku believes in Satan but not in God? If you were an atheist, I could appreciate it, but...SATANIST?

Heh, of course not ;)

EDRIC:

So if you've got a noble and just leader, ruling with love and kindness, and a bunch of nazi rebels who want him taken down, the rebels are the good guys...?

Noble and just? Again, I do not trust Satan's portrayal in the buybull (sorry guys, had to try it out once), and since when is Satan and 1/3 of the angels Nazi's? They were just as noble and just as god.

Ummmm... if they couldn't go against God's will, then how come they DID go against His will by eating the fruit?

They only had god telling them what to do, they were trapped with no outside perspective. These so-called perfect beings had one channel, where Satan brought another, giving them this explosion of mentality that there is something outside of god's will (my opinion of course).

So you'd rather be free in a world of chaos, murder, injustice and suffering... than be a law-abiding citizen in a perfect Utopia where evil does not exist?

Interesting...

Evil would already exist. God created it. And yes, I would rather live in this reality, than to be another drone in god's slavery. I don't like the idea of my mind not gaining its full potential, and knowing as much as I can. To be trapped within the confinements of god's will and only his will, makes me shudder.

This is what you do when you're bored? LOL.

But really, try to find some other passtime except bashing Christianity... no, seriously, I mean it...

I could be playing Xbox LIVE, but I gotta take a break sometime ;)

[Davidu]

ON TOPIC REPLY:

<<POLY WANNA CRACKER?>>

[King-Mega]

Satan is just a myth,story or legend that Humans believe. 8)

[drahgoon]

like hell he is a myth he is real but he is evil for those who have read the bible what is heaven and what is hell ??? those would answer which is better unless you like burning. thats all i have to say.

edit and yes by the way i am Christian

[Acriku]

Heaven is the "firmament" in the midst of the waters. Hmm...

[drahgoon]

and for those who havent read the bible heaven is cristal rivers, golden streets, and hell is all fire and burning now which one would you like, burning for eternity or living for eternity ??? not a hard question and you can probably tell i am very pissed about this topic.

[Acriku]

I choose neither: nonexistence. Oh baby ;)

[Edric O]

Noble and just? Again, I do not trust Satan's portrayal in the buybull (sorry guys, had to try it out once)

And why not? Do you have ANOTHER source that potrays satan differently?

And let me point out once again that your position is self-contradictory: On the one hand you claim that the Bible is true (satan exists), and on the other hand you say that the very same Bible is in fact full of lies.

and since when is Satan and 1/3 of the angels

Nazi's? They were just as noble and just as god.

Oh, so that's why satan wants to put himself in God's place and have all human souls burning in hell, right? Wow, I can already see the nobility in that... ::)

They only had god telling them what to do, they were trapped with no outside perspective. These so-called perfect beings had one channel, where Satan brought another, giving them this explosion of mentality that there is something outside of god's will (my opinion of course).

Yes, there is something outside of God's will: EVIL. Hatred, suffering and death. I guess we should be thankful to satan for giving us these wonderful things, eh? ::)

Evil would already exist. God created it.

Evil would still exist (satan), but humans would have no contact with it.

And yes, I would rather live in this reality, than to be another drone in god's slavery. I don't like the idea of my mind not gaining its full potential, and knowing as much as I can. To be trapped within the confinements of god's will and only his will, makes me shudder.

LOL. God gives you complete freedom to choose for yourself, and you're still accusing Him of enslaving you? Acriku, God wouldn't be able to please you no matter what He does. You expect Him to:

1. Create a perfect world with no evil for us, and constantly use His powers to stop us from corrupting it with evil ourselves.

2. Give us complete and absolute freedom to do ANYTHING we want with no consequences.

Your demands CONTRADICT EACH OTHER, Acriku. Your argument against God is a catch-22. He fails short of your expectations no matter what He does.

[Davidu]

ENOUGH! >:(