US and France and others

[Miles]

Will we ever be able to recover from this crisis?

I have found Spiceguild's statements to be a little encouraging and appreciate his posts.

However, while the French may be able to forgive us, I don't know if that forgiveness will come so easy from Americans. We respect the right of them to disagree with us, but the hatred shown by the population, and the undermining backstabbing of Chirac will be harder to forget.

To burn our flag in the street, and for Chirac to vehemently campaign against us to the world after all that we have done to help is reprehensable. Even now, Chirac campaigns against us and threatens to veto in the UN a resolution to rebuild Iraq under US leadership. This is going to be tough to forgive.

France has taken a gamble, as has Russia and Germany, and they will pay dearly for this when we are vindicated after the war. They will not be punished by force, but it is going to be awfully hard to sign those HUGE aid paychecks and trade agreements in the future.

I, personally, have a burning hatred for the french, and dislike Germany and Russia very much. This is a sentiment shared by most that I talk to. The way they have acted is NOT the way allies are to act. I hope that over time, this can be overcome, but don't expect it any time soon.

I do not speak for all Americans, although most that I talk to share these sentiments.

[Egeides]

I would add to this that the Canadian-USA relation seems to have suffered a bit of it too. Some Canadians did not appreciate that their decision wasn't respected while some Americans seem to have something against Canadians (isolated events recently).

And this does not count the US-Arab relation!!

[nampigai]

Let's see now after the war. Yes I agree that burning flags and saying "we will veto no matter what" is below the belt. However you must also hold in mind that if you hit France, Germany and Russia others will get hit indercetly, that's the problem of todays world. And in the end it will also hit back at the US.

[Edric O]

They have the right to burn your flag as much as they like. In case you haven't noticed, France is a free country. They can burn all the flags they want.

Chirac showed courage and determination, and for that I salute him! He stood up against an imperialist superpower. He followed his own path instead of licking Bush's boots. France proved to have more of a backbone than many other countries.

And France did the right thing, as did Russia and Germany. It is clear that the US no longer wants allies - it only wants vassals. As such, there is no reason why the free countries of Europe should bow before them. Now is the time for France, Germany and Russia to make a stand against imperialism! Disband the North Atlantic Terrorist Organization!

[Anathema]

Powel has already said that the US will take the responsibility to rebuild Iraq, and that the UN will only provide humanitarian aid (wich the US is apparently not interested in providing).

And the Americans did some pretty stupid things to, like the freedom fries thing and the bill to carry away dead bodies from WWII from France, wich is IMO a lot worse then burning a flag.

Anybody else wonder if someone is going to declare a boycot against American goods? I'd support it.

[The_Sadukar]

as always Edric is right...

[Dude_Doc]

Chirac showed courage and determination, and for that I salute him! He stood up against an imperialist superpower. He followed his own path instead of licking Bush's boots. France proved to have more of a backbone than many other countries.

What do you know? France didn't want any war because that would affect their economy.

And France did the right thing, as did Russia and Germany. It is clear that the US no longer wants allies - it only wants vassals. As such, there is no reason why the free countries of Europe should bow before them. Now is the time for France, Germany and Russia to make a stand against imperialism! Disband the North Atlantic Terrorist Organization!

Really? Think that's so simple? Russia, Germany and France are all corrupted, power-hungry bastards. Do you really think no one is poor in those countries? Do you think there are no corporations, industries and greedy people in those countries? You say so much about a country you do not know. You think the US is the only country that has poor people, greedy corporations and so on. You think the european currency will make the sun shine? No, it won't. It is a thing to control peoples money. The new currency is just a thing for the rich, can't you see? There is no democracy left in Europe, only in Britain. The rest seems to merge together to a new country, namely the Restored Soviet Union...

[Egeides]

All of them DID have some of their politicians that had less humanitarian reasons (access to petroleum, etc.) but it permitted to some of them that had good ideas to get up and talk without having others shooting them for going against national profit. Politics hs its problem, as it always did. But the people in France, germany and Russia: THEY have arguments and they aren't just 100 or 200! Spain is following USA while I heard polls said 80% of its population did not support Bush... And they still call Spain "a supporter of Bush" :P

[nampigai]

Dude_Doc defying the USA will also affect France's economy.

And Edric, what I say is that burning flags is respectless IMO. If I saw anyone burning I danish flag, I'd see red.

[Egeides]

NaMp, may I try?

[nemafakei]

"Powel has already said that the US will take the responsibility to rebuild Iraq"

Hm. I've heard US companies will be involved inreconstructions, but where will the moneycome from? The US itself? If so, good. If the UN, then the offer is not so much a favour as an opportunity to get more profits for US business. If Iraq... need I elaborateon the words 'Third world Debt'?

[Gobalopper]

The US has said that any money coming from the US sources to pay for rebuilding should not go to countries like France or Russia. I don't think they've said outright that they can't help. If you lived in Iraq and a bunch of countries had liberated you wouldn't you rather have those countries get the benefits of reconstruction rather then countries that were against it.

Also Earthnuker that bill wasn't a bill to move all the bodies back to the US but giving families the option to move them back. And after the recent action with the UK cemetary I wouldn't blame them for wanting to bring them back.

[Miles]

They have the right to burn your flag as much as they like. In case you haven't noticed, France is a free country. They can burn all the flags they want.

And we have the right to be pissed off about it. We also have the right to withold the goodies that they get from us in response to these actions.

Chirac showed courage and determination, and for that I salute him! He stood up against an imperialist superpower. He followed his own path instead of licking Bush's boots. France proved to have more of a backbone than many other countries.

France did not have to agree with us. Chirac probably took the right position in opposing the war. We have no problem with that. As I said, we don't want a bunch of ass kissing countries.

However, to backstab us by sending delegates to Africa and other countries to vote against us, to call us criminals in our actions and threaten to veto a US lead reconstruction and UN aid to Iraq is reprehensible. This is not how allies act.

And France did the right thing, as did Russia and Germany. It is clear that the US no longer wants allies - it only wants vassals. As such, there is no reason why the free countries of Europe should bow before them. Now is the time for France, Germany and Russia to make a stand against imperialism! Disband the North Atlantic Terrorist Organization!

No, read above, we want allies, and countries have the right to oppose their ally's actions. However, France Germany and Russia went too far. They fanned the flames of hatred already in the middle east, they emboldened Saddam Hussein with their cowardice, they emboldened Kim Jong by showing unnecessarily large cracks in the alliance. They destroyed the credibility of the UN by refusing to enforce it's own resolutions. Now, the UN is on the verge of irrelevance, and any hope of some kind of world order is slipping through our fingers. The US had to step up to the plate as other nations pissed down their leg, or any hope of credible order would have been lost.

You say Chirac showed courage and determination, I say he showed selfishness and stupidity.

[Nyarlathotep]

However, to backstab us by sending delegates to Africa and other countries to vote against us, to call us criminals in our actions and threaten to veto a US lead reconstruction and UN aid to Iraq is reprehensible. This is not how allies act.

Common Miles, the US showed same tactics to make countries support their hunger for war. They lobbied(sp?) the same way France did. There is no difference in that part between the US and the French, they both acted stupid.

About rebuilding Iraq, I think all countries that supported the war should have a say and benefit from that. As it looks like now, only American (and UK ?) companies get to aid and profit from rebuilding Iraq. Well done US for showing some gratitude for the war support of many countries you've bribed to support your war hunger ::)

Countries that did not support the war have no saying and shouldn't profit from the rebuild of Iraq, it's that simpel (in that I agree with the US government).

[Miles]

Common Miles, the US showed same tactics to make countries support their hunger for war. They lobbied(sp?) the same way France did. There is no difference in that part between the US and the French, they both acted stupid.

We lobbied for support of the war, France lobbied for opposition to us. Hell, they even threatened to veto helping Turkey defend itself by sending supplies. Now we are finding weapons sold to Iraq by France within the last year. France deserves to take a BIG hit after this is over, as do some others.

Acting stupid? Do you call liberating a horribly oppressed people stupid? Oh well, we will see how the opinions of the ONLY people who matter say about it in the near future. You will be proven wrong.

About rebuilding Iraq, I think all countries that supported the war should have a say and benefit from that. As it looks like now, only American (and UK ?) companies get to aid and profit from rebuilding Iraq. Well done US for showing some gratitude for the war support of many countries you've bribed to support your war hunger ::)

Most of those countries provided little to no actual support to the war. The countries that spent the most should be repaid the most. Do you disagree with this logic. Those countries you mention benefitted from the bribe itself. Billions of dollars of aid ain't too shabby. I think we are showing too much gratitude.

Countries that did not support the war have no saying and shouldn't profit from the rebuild of Iraq, it's that simpel (in that I agree with the US government).

Nor should countries that benefitted in other ways.

[Egeides]

"Now we are finding weapons sold to Iraq by France"

But you'll find ALOT more of stuff sent by Americans before 1991. What made Saddam so strong was all the support he got by USA, while he was a strategic advantage and let "correct" opportunities on oil.

[The_Sadukar]

Chirac showed courage and determination, and for that I salute him! He stood up against an imperialist superpower. He followed his own path instead of licking Bush's boots. France proved to have more of a backbone than many other countries.

France did not have to agree with us. Chirac probably took the right position in opposing the war. We have no problem with that. As I said, we don't want a bunch of ass kissing countries.

That's not the way it seems to me.

[Nyarlathotep]

Miles, you can't deny the fact that the US threatend other countries that didn't support their war view. Stop acting like the US is holy, cause they aren't. They bribed/threatend/what ever other countries just as bad as the French did (talking about governments here. I just want it to be clear that I have nothing against the American citizens here).

And I never mentioned any countries, I just think countries that supported the US should have some saying in it (I'm not talking about a equal share, that wouldn't be fair, I agree).

[Anathema]

Hehe, the Axis of Bribery ^-^

[Acriku]

The US did use money to help them get support, but what the hell are they going to do - kiss their ass? They want support, they give what they have, which is money. I guess giving aid to other countries for their support is bribery, too?

[Nyarlathotep]

The US did use money to help them get support, but what the hell are they going to do - kiss their ass? They want support, they give what they have, which is money. I guess giving aid to other countries for their support is bribery, too?

What I was talking about is poor countries not getting aid if they didn't support the US. That's bribing a country. If this war wouldn't have happened, they wouldn't have cancelled their support to that country now would they ??

Stating to Mexico that US companies will be forbidden to invest in that country if they didn't support the US' war hunger. Next to that, saying that rules for Mexican people migrating to the US would be simplified and made more easy. They wouldn't have stated and done that if this war wouldn't be at hand now would they ? Common guys, stick with reality here..

[Andrew]

Talking about financial support, couldn't the U.S. have brought Canada out of debt with all the money its spending on war? (how many billion $$$) They want to help those countries, but why dont they help a stable country like Canada so that it can be debt free and not spending 1/10 of every dollar towards debt?

[Acriku]

What would you want them to do, to gain support? "Oh Turkey, you so fine, you so fine you blow my mind! Hey Turkey! Hey, hey, hey Turkey!" ;)

We give enough (more than) aid to other countries, and to add more incentive to the situation for them to support us gives the countries a chance for a lot of money. Saudi Arabia had a chance at 8 billion, but since they stood by their first stance, against the war, the chance for that money was gone. The government stripped its people of this money, and the wonders it would have done just because they opposed something that was bound to happen anyway. Who is being more unjust now?

[Anathema]

What I was talking about is poor countries not getting aid if they didn't support the US. That's bribing a country.

That's not bribing, that's blackmailing.

[Acriku]

Blackmailing? No, it wouldn't be that serious, after all - what are they trying to conceal with the money? They just want support.