Forgiving God?

[Aeris]

I have thought about the punishment, the "Hell". I was thinking that hell is like a temporary prison. The more evil you do in this universe, the longer you'll stay in hell. I don't think anyone deserves to be in hell for eternity.

Truly, that makes sense, but after that would all thought of evil just be washed away? And also, there is the verse in the bible where one person works in the field for 1 hour, another works for 5 hours(or something like that) yet they still get paid the same. Would it not be the same with sins? The message that I get from this(but do not really think is fair) is that you can sin once or a thousand times, the punishment is the same.

[sneezer3]

Ok, one at a time. ;)

I waited a long time for this:

Edric 0, how do you know that jesus had existed? it's quite easy to write a book, add some real characters from history in it and say that everything really had happened.

btw. don't tell me that the reason why they exist is because i am standing here today, it can lead to any 'god'.

It is because you exist today! ;D

If it was any other god then he would have shown himself by now. and there wouldn't be a Bible with no written around 600 years with no conterdictions found yet. with no prediction it made not come true it, indeed there are many sighns Jesus is God.

[TMA_1]

isnt it funny that people argue on issues they wont agree on? Whats the point? you already have your set of views. You are already negative to a God. Gods, Goddess',metaphysical powers. You cant say that you just want facts and arent negative. You know you cant have those facts and you use your anti religious ideals to seem self righteous and open minded.

[sneezer3]

isnt it funny that people argue on issues they wont agree on? Whats the point? you already have your set of views. You are already negative to a God. Gods, Goddess',metaphysical powers. You cant say that you just want facts and arent negative. You know you cant have those facts and you use your anti religious ideals to seem self righteous and open minded.

Yeah i know what you mean, sometimes i just get kind of frustrated and want to clear things up.

[Aeris]

But, isn't arguing fun sometimes? ;D

[Acriku]

People in here (cough SNEEZER cough) are so full of logical fallacies it makes me sick. And it isn't the lasagna I just ate. *Bleh*

[TMA_1]

thats the point. who gives a crap what you think? lol

[ken124578]

If it was any other god then he would have shown himself by now.

Neither has god.

And there wouldn't be a Bible with no written around 600 years with no conterdictions found yet.

The great flood, i could make a book too, add some real people in it and some wars that really had happened and voila :P

[Caid Ivik]

He shown himself. Just like i.e. USA shown nuke attack on Hiroshima. Do you believe it was really done? Some people (skinheads, antisemitists...) still don't believe holocaust was a reality. You can counter there are still some people which have it in their mind. But let's look at for example Attila. There are no Huns today, all were assimilated by Romans, Gals, Avars or other stuff. Why do you believe they've existed? Because you read something about them? What gives you evidence that stories about Attila are more true than i.e. book of Jozue?

I have thought about the punishment, the "Hell". I was thinking that hell is like a temporary prison. The more evil you do in this universe, the longer you'll stay in hell. I don't think anyone deserves to be in hell for eternity.

We believe in some "cleaning room", which is over the hell. Hell is a definite state, altough I don't know how it is really. Catholic Church teaches about that "cleaning room" as temporary place of suffering for our sins. Before Jesus opened Heaven, this room was the only place when soul could came after death (also called hades or sub-world), altough the hell, sheol (hebrew for "abyss"), existed.

[ken124578]

let's look at for example Attila. There are no Huns today, all were assimilated by Romans, Gals, Avars or other stuff. Why do you believe they've existed?

Never heard of huns :P

[Acriku]

Caid, all of those things were natural, as in it isn't hard to think that it really happened. When it comes to the supernatural, more than hearsay is needed.

[TMA_1]

thats all we really have acriku, and you know that. whats your point man?

[nemafakei]

Acriku, there's a simple solution to those who are not prepared to discuss logically: do not try to hold discussion with them.

[Acriku]

If hearsay is all you have, then it is indeed fruitless to believe in this supernatural being. With natural events, you can provide more than hearsay - so it isn't the same when talking about the supernatural.

I agree on that Nema, but gotta find out if they will or not you know?

[Caid Ivik]

Caid, all of those things were natural, as in it isn't hard to think that it really happened. When it comes to the supernatural, more than hearsay is needed.

Even nature has to be caused by something... But look at i.e. Alexander Macedonian who conquered half of the world with such small army. Or Jews (ehm, "chosen nation"), whose culture resisted all attacks for 4000 years. Nature is sometimes more weird than God.

[TMA_1]

remember nema, you dont argue with fools.

[Anathema]

If there were evidence that God existed, then people would believe, and people would convert- but only out of fear and not because they always "knew" in their hearts that God existed. So what's the point in trying to convince someone that God has been proven?

[Caid Ivik]

God was feared by early Jews. Most of the other gods (instead of thunder-gods and other such natural powers) were just like helpers, who for a nice sacrifice "did" what their believers wanted. This God, named "He Who Is", not just a "lord" (like Baal, Marduk, 'El and else), was feared because He showed Himself to them. And this fear remained until Jesus came and teached what really He wants from us.

[hilamobster13]

ahh, it truly brings a tear to my eye to see some of this. a happy tear. this is, by all accounts, one of the most collected, constrained, conserved religious argument ever. maybe there's hope for this yet. :_)

oh, and when'd you join tana??!! incase you don't know, the japanese money guy (me) is jaemin. :P

[TMA_1]

what the heck are you talking about man? and you dont live in japan. People over there would be freaking scared of you, good grief.lol

[lowzeewee]

its hila.

With so many forms of 'evidence' for each god,which shall we believe?

[Aeris]

With so many forms of 'evidence' for each god,which shall we believe?

That would be one of the reasons we're arguing.

[lowzeewee]

Sry i didnt read the first few posts of the thread :-[

[Edric O]

Caid, all of those things were natural, as in it isn't hard to think that it really happened. When it comes to the supernatural, more than hearsay is needed.

"Hearsay" is all we have as proof that Attila the Hun existed. "Hearsay" is all we have as proof that Ghenghis Khan existed. It's all we have as proof that Christopher Columbus ever existed, that Brutus killed Caesar, that Odoacer conquered Rome...

And yet you accept all those on hearsay alone, because they are "natural". Then tell me, Acriku, where do you draw the line between the natural and the supernatural? Or do you simply label anything that you don't particulary feel like believing as "supernatural"?

[Acriku]

History isn't about proof. It's about evidence.

And yet you accept all those on hearsay alone, because they are "natural". Then tell me, Acriku, where do you draw the line between the natural and the supernatural? Or do you simply label anything that you don't particulary feel like believing as "supernatural"?

I accept as most probable, not as truth. When learning history, we use what we find, and then interpret the evidence to explain history. We have been wrong in the past, even now in history books there are wrong facts. Drawing the line between the natural and the supernatural is simple. Making up an army and fighting against another general is perfectly natural. Going through over 20 years on a boat trip fighting two-headed large beasts, getting your friends turned to pigs, going into the Underworld, all of this is not natural. With what we have, there is no way this can happen in the natural world. If you followed along, I was talking about Odysseus and his journey. With the 'hearsay' we find on natural events, we find it probable that it happened. But we don't stop there. We make expedition sites, we go to the lands and dig for evidence. We approach the evidence for natural events and people, and interpret them. Many believe certain things about history, and we can now go to the site of the history and find evidence. There's a show on History Channel called "History Unraveled" I think, where it goes to the sites of history and looks for evidence for the certain part of history - like Custer's Last Stand. Then, with the evidence we can determine if the 'hearsay' of the facts of this time in history is true or not. If we all accepted all natural events as truth, we wouldn't be doing that. But, we find it probable that it did happen, and then we can find out for ourselves if it did happen or not.