"There can be no world peace without religious peace"

[Edric O]

Acriku, are you so blinded by your hatred of religion as to ignore the obvious?

Country A is rich. Country B is poor and jealous of country A's wealth. Country B declares "holy war" on country A and declares itself the rightful owner of all their land and property, because "God said so".

And you're telling me the cause of such a war is religion? ::)

[Acriku]

Oh please edric, that situation has nothing to do with what happened in the past. I agree that other factors may have been involved in these "holy wars" but religion was the major factor. Nothing of my so-called "hate for religion" has to do with this conclusion.

[emprworm]

There are numerous wars in the history of man that are not caused by religion.

This stupid idea that religion causes more wars than anything in history is bullhockey. Show me the proof of that claim.

[Andrew]

it may not be that reliogion causes war, but that the opposing sides have different religion, and that is why people relate religion as a cause of war. and yes some wars(fights?) were caused by religion. and me not know any right now, but i know there are..me busy updating Dune Jihad!

[Caid Ivik]

Mention that worst wars and slaughters were caused by atheists. And how much people meanfully survived them thanks to their religion. Yes, every religion has some militant zealots, but those "spiritual leaders" like Bin Ladin have primarily political, not religious targets. He is fightning against USA and Saud dynasty too, he fights protectors of Mecca!

[Acriku]

Caid, wars in Russia were in the name of communism. Communism was the main factor, and the reason for why they did everything, even why they did stuff to religions - because it went against communism. Bin Ladin with political targets? Bin Ladin is an extremist of his religion, and uses it to back him up with his own interpretations, although I do not claim to know his exact motives, religion is a big part of it, as well as other reasons.

[Caid Ivik]

No it's political opposition than any other. Fight against Saudis is arab way of solving their arguments. Fight against USA is pathetic jealing over their wealth, power and primarily order.

[Acriku]

I guess those guys just like to fight ;)

[Dude_Doc]

If there wouldn't be any religion, people would have to invent one. That's just the way. If God didn't give us the Bible, if everything religious in the past did not happen, then the cause would be different. They'd probably slaughter each other in the name of their kings or something. I promise you, in 1000 years, non-religion "based" wars would have ANY meaning against the wars we will have...

[nemafakei]

Religion is not to blame. What is to blame is the vast difference in wealth across the world, and people's perceptions about their power to change it, expecially in their own favour.

[Acriku]

You mean currently Nema? I was talking about the past past wars.

[emprworm]

not even past wars. i challenge the notion that the majority of wars in the history of man were religiously motivated.

to say religion played a part- well duh! of course since nearly all people are religious...but to say that religion was the PRIMARY REASON for the wars is absurd in my mind. take out religion and those wars still would have been fought.

[Edric O]

Oh please edric, that situation has nothing to do with what happened in the past.

Country A is the Arab Caliphate (sp?). Country B is France/England. There you have it - the Crusades. Even the slightest glance at crusader history will show you that they didn't care much about taking the important religious sites. They did, however, care A LOT about rich cities that they could plunder, even if those cities were WAY off the crusaders' intended course.

Look at the 4th crusade. If that was a religious war I'm the Pope.

Furthermore, even if we admit that all these supposedly religious wars were indeed waged in the name of some religion or other, the nationalistic and secular bloodbaths of the 20th century make them look like pathetic jokes. Can your medieval religious wars match the 80 million dead in just the two world wars?

I didn't think so.

[Davidu]

I think this <<General>> part of the Fed2k forum is anything BUT Dune. No problem with that.

I see that people like to discuss, to think, to look for the reasons of the presents problems. That's good.

Now, yes religion is used, but also religion uses...

Wars will forever be... Among us or aganst other races(aliens...)

To make people not to hate eachother and not to wage war agaisnt each other is a matter of education, I think.

But, I dosen't matter how educated you are when you're attacked. Then you have te defend youself and draw back the attackers. Then you're almost one of them.

What I really like is that I see people talking. Comunicating. You know, it should be more young people (like you all) in the governments around the globe. I think that would be a good idea, 'cos young people are usually curious and therefor are receptive to new ideas.

They will have the patience to discover foreign cultures without judging them first.

That is the power of a person: to draw logical and realistic, and objective conclusions. Judging is always bad, 'cos then you tend to forget the others' opinions and beliefes.

I don't know how much sense my writing has, but... well... that's it.

[emprworm]

the Crusades...fine, I am willing to grant that they were religious wars...even though as Edric points out some of them used religion as an excuse for a totally DIFFERENT motivation.

But is that all you anti-religious people have against religion? Is that all you got are a few crusades and a couple of inquisitions to support your argument that human evil derives itself from religion? LOL. Ha ha, man that is funny. Like I've been saying, take away religion and you still have wars.

[SurlyPIG]

Even today it still happens. Doesn't anyone remember Bush saying "God is on our side." in the state of the nation address? Man he must be losing support if he needs to claim his decisions are the will of God.

"Mention that worst wars and slaughters were caused by atheists."

No they weren't. I assume you are referring to Communism. 95% of the world believes in some sort of supreme being. Less than 5% of the world (atheists and not agnostics) did not cause 100% of the wars. LOL. That's ridiculous. Look at every war in the past 100 years. Almost all have been started by people who are theist. Not necessarily in the name of theism, but they are theist nonetheless.

That's ridiculous.

Acriku : Look at these wars started in the name of religion...

Caid : Yes but this one war was started by an atheist in the name of communism.

"And how much people meanfully survived them thanks to their religion."

So you're saying they survived because of devine intervention...yeah ok there dude. You might want to get a catscan.

"Yes, every religion has some militant zealots, but those "spiritual leaders" like Bin Ladin have primarily political, not religious targets. He is fightning against USA and Saud dynasty too, he fights protectors of Mecca!"

BS. Yeah he attacked the pentagon where lots of civillians work. He brought down the WTC towers with 100% civillians inside. He's a terrorist who hates other religions. He doesn't attack "political" targets.

How the hell is a group of bars in Indonesia full of Australians a political target? That's BS. Total BS. They think "We can't get back in the US because they've beefed up their security. So we'll just go attack this group of people who are sinning by our standards anyway." Remember that drinking fermented (alcoholic) drinks is a sin in Islam. Obviously it's one of the reasons they attacked bars and night clubs. LOL. Man that's just dense. "Political targets" rofl. They're religous targets. Nothing more. And he (Osama bin Laden) fights a religous war. I mean FFS, he declared a Jihad (Arabic for HOLY WAR)! And you still say it's political. ROFL.

[emprworm]

I can tell you assuredly, Bush is not going to war for religious reasons. if anything they may be personal, or based on oil, or based on revenge, or based on simply justice (my view). but not religious. lol

"Mention that worst wars and slaughters were caused by atheists.

No they weren't.

uhhh...yes they were (at least as far as slaughter goes, anyway).

[Apollyon]

Is that all you got are a few crusades and a couple of inquisitions to support your argument that human evil derives itself from religion?

when was that the argument? ever? at all? The argument is primarily :"There can be no world peace without religious peace" and maybe that wars are caused by religion, I see no posts other than your own arguing that religion is or isnt the source of all evil.

[Edric O]

95% of the world believes in some sort of supreme being.

Correction: 85%

According to the latest census data, approximately 15% of the world's population declare themselves atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, etc.

Look at every war in the past 100 years. Almost all have been started by people who are theist.

Irrelevant. I am a communist. Does that mean that everything I ever do is in the name of communism? ::)

And since theists are the overall majority, isn't it a little obvious that the majority of evil people also happen to be theists? Just like the majority of good people.

Doesn't anyone remember Bush saying "God is on our side." in the state of the nation address?

He's pretty much believing himself to be God, so I'm not surprised. ;D

Seriously though, that is simply a quick way of getting all naive Christians on his side. And it works.

[SurlyPIG]

I can tell you assuredly, Bush is not going to war for religious reasons. if anything they may be personal, or based on oil, or based on revenge, or based on simply justice (my view). but not religious. lol

I agree, but that doesn't explain why he said "God is on our side", now does it?

"Mention that worst wars and slaughters were caused by atheists."

No they weren't.

uhhh...yes they were (at least as far as slaughter goes, anyway).

No, they just weren't. I've seen facts on this. Sure there was Stalin and that one Chinese dude, they were atheists, but it doesn't mean they slaughtered in the name of atheism. And that was DEIFINATELY not the majority of human lives lost in war/genocide.

Correction: 85%

According to the latest census data, approximately 15% of the world's population declare themselves atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, etc.

Wow...Do you have a link or something you can refer me to on that? It's not that I'm doubting you but that's a BIG change, because I know that as of 1992 it was 95%.

Irrelevant. I am a communist. Does that mean that everything I ever do is in the name of communism? ::)

That's what I said about stalin...People like emprworm and Caid seem to think that Stalin waged war in the name of atheism whereas it was actually communism. That's a lie. And it creates a false aura of inhumane evil. Obviously I responded with the fact theists start wars too...

And since theists are the overall majority, isn't it a little obvious that the majority of evil people also happen to be theists? Just like the majority of good people.

Yes of course. But both Caid and emprworm seem to think that atheists are exclusively the ones responsible for war/slaughter. How else was I to respond?

I'll summarize with this...Wars can be started for any reason. History has shown it can be about money, land, power, people, pride, and religion. Wars HAVE BEEN started over religion and by religion. And religion is often a factor in underdeveloped warfare. I'm not saying they're the biggest cause at all but they've happened.

There has NEVER been a war started by atheism. Atheists have started war, but NEVER in the name of atheism. Never. You cannot say the same about religion. I've never heard of an atheist wanting to "purge their holy land of people of x religion".

[emprworm]

"Mention that worst wars and slaughters were caused by atheists."

No they weren't.

uhhh...yes they were (at least as far as slaughter goes, anyway).

No, they just weren't. I've seen facts on this. Sure there was Stalin and that one Chinese dude, they were atheists, but it doesn't mean they slaughtered in the name of atheism. And that was DEIFINATELY not the majority of human lives lost in war/genocide.

but it didn't say that they slaughtered in the name of atheism. it simply said that some of the worst slaughteres were caused by atheists. There is no such thing as 'the name of atheism' that I know of.

[SurlyPIG]

My point exactly. There were equally brutal slaughters organized by theists too. Hitler was a Christian, though he certainly didn't do it for Christianity that's for sure.

[Edric O]

Hitler had his own warped pseudo-religious dogma, far removed from Christianity... and at the center of the madness was himself as a God.

You asked for the census where I got my 15% atheism (as it turns out, it's 14%) figure from. Here it is:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The 5 largest world religions:

1. Christianity: 2 billion

2. Islam: 1.3 billion

3. Hinduism: 900 million

4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

5. Buddhism: 360 million

[Caid Ivik]

Hitler a Christian? Bah. He was a fanatic with his own world based on those brainwashing thinkings which he found in Wagner's operas and ancient german myths. He believed in God, but it was Odin. He was insane. He had hated Jews and was chronically scared by spreading communism. And also he had a charisma to lure more people on his way. And he wasn't the worst - Himmler was one of the most active members of Thule Gesellschaft, militant organisation truly believing Aryans are survivors of fallen Thule (german equivalent to Atlantis) island, chosen by their gods to lead the new world. I think when Hitler talked with Himmler about that he was more fascinated than when he read (IF he read) Bible.

[Inoculator9]

You can make up any warped form of Christianity and slap that name on it. Hitler was a Christian, all be it a very bad one to say the least, Nazi equipment even had religious mottos like "God is with us"(although this may have been refering to Hitler himself, lol) or some other similar saying.

And religion, IMO, has caused many wars but in many cases religion is just used to try and justify a war.