Navaros Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Veterans of Emperor will remember my brilliant essays of lore about why the Under 3 Rule is the best thing since sliced bread. Today, I approach this thesis in a slightly different yet equally brilliant and informative light. You see, the single most Strategy-promoting implementation Westwood ever made was the Under 3 Rule. Yes, I know: the n00bs will spam this thread saying: "if you quit under 3 you suck blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda" - when in fact only a skill-less n00b would take a offense at not being able to wait til after 3 to attack because he is too hopeless to have any chance of winning unless he rushes. ROFL. Nav the Psychic ;D; such spam will come to this thread, I am 100% sure, but us veterans can just disregard such n00bical spam because we see how silly it is. On to the subject at hand.I am now a veteran of WarCraft 3 as well as Emperor. Yes WarCraft 3 royally sucks (more than the Contaminator unit sucks in Emperor, in fact LOL) and is a babyish imitation of an RTS in which the Winner is almost always determined by sheer dumb luck. How does this relate to the Under 3 Strategic-gameplay-promoting? I'll tell you.In WarCraft 3, everyone, I mean *everyone everyone everyone* will ALWAYS use the *EXACT* same BO. It's Altar/Farm/Barracks, PERIOD. Those who do not use this BO in WarCraft 3 are dead dead dead, period ( a couple of exceptions apply such as tower rushers, but if the tower rush fails the tower rusher is dead - guranteed, so tower rushing is just bad strat period, esp. with the prevalence of maphacks for WarCraft 3). So *every single game* of WarCraft 3 starts out in exactly the same way: *every* player builds *exactly* the same thing in *exactly the same order*. Does this make for creative, interesting, or compelling gameplay? Or course not! It makes for dull, monotonous, entirely predictable, insomnia-curing, babyish, redundant nonsense! Moreover, it defeats the whole concept of "Strategy" right from the word "Go". The same would be true of Emperor - if not for the Under 3 Rule. The great and legendary ATR players who trained me always said: "get a Fac first or you're dead, period". Of course, without the Under 3 Rule, they'd be 100% right and Emperor would be *just like WarCraft 3* {shudders} in the respect that anyone who did not conform to one exact BO had just earned himself a *guranteed* loss against any good, rushing player. With the implemenation of the ingenius Under 3 Rule, you see a variety of BO's, you see creativity, you see ingenuity, you see un-predicatable gameplay, you see compelling surprises {gee, thx for Kobra rushing me at 2 Mins you silly Ordos, think I'll take my Win now - sorry for not conforming to the BO you *thought* I'd do of Fac Ref, I'll just laugh at you as I steam roll over your base now that your rush has failed - ha!} Statements like that don't happen in WarCraft 3, and they'd never happen in Emperor without the Under 3 Rule.Conclusion: Emperor is a much better game *with* the Under 3 Rule than it ever could be *without* it and every RTS to ever come out in future should have the exact same rule in order to make for interesting gameplay. Any that don't will fall into the same trap as WarCraft 3.
GhostHunter Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Well Nav, I'm a vetren of Emperor dating back to way before you touched the box, this time even though you said something that could of been shorter, I do agree with you that the 3 minute rule was a good idea and gives people a little bit more room for new strats and bos etc...
rogue1896 Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 what's your point? we all already know you like the 3 minute rule so aside from the WC3 information, i don't see the point. unless you wanted to remind us that you liked the 3 minute rule. was that it?
Navaros Posted January 2, 2003 Author Posted January 2, 2003 rogue my point is i want you to please stop spamming my threads. thank you. i've asked you several times in the past and yet you still spam every one of my threads. please knock it off. to make things simple, just don't ever post in any of my threads: frankly, they are too good for you and your spam.
ethan Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 nav, if you wanted pepole to not "spam" youre threads, maybe you shouldnt "spam" yourself, or just lock the thread rightafter, so no one "spamS"
DukeLeto Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 In WarCraft 3, everyone, I mean *everyone everyone everyone* will ALWAYS use the *EXACT* same BO. It's Altar/Farm/Barracks, PERIOD. Those who do not use this BO in WarCraft 3 are dead dead dead, period ( a couple of exceptions apply such as tower rushers, but if the tower rush fails the tower rusher is dead - guranteed, so tower rushing is just bad strat period, esp. with the prevalence of maphacks for WarCraft 3). So *every single game* of WarCraft 3 starts out in exactly the same way: *every* player builds *exactly* the same thing in *exactly the same order*. He does have a point...same thing happens in SC.
Fuzi0n Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Total crap, all the newbs use the same bo, elite players have very different bo's..
Fuzi0n Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Oh yeah and the 3 minute rule is for pussies, and im glad blizzard left it out. Every elite player should be able to hold its own in every stage of the game, gues u never were elite nav.
DukeLeto Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Such as? ::)I'm not dissing Blizzard here. It's not (entirely) their fault. I guess they just attract a less creative community. :P (j/k)
Fuzi0n Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Well i dont know them all (if u want to know watch the rep's of elite players) but here are a couple that i use.Undead: Crypt,zig,zig,graveyard,altarCrypt,Altar,zig,zig,graveyardCrypt,zig,altar,zig,upgrade hallsCrypt,zig,zig,upgrade Halls, AltarEveryone starts with crypt cuz thats what u need to get wood, kinda like starting with a ref in empAnd i dont play Nightelves but what if seen:Altar,moonwell,moonwellAOW,Altar,moonwellAltar,Moonwell,AOW,AOW.And if u really want various bo's play orc. I think they have the most different bo's with their strats: tower pushing, hard teching, solo creeping etc etc....
DukeLeto Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 It seems to be: Crypt,zig,zig,alter, only with the position of the Altar shuffled around a little. ::)
Anathema Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Duh, of course you build your altar early on! Even a fresh noob could think of that.
DukeLeto Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Well, I don't have the game yet! Give me a few hours! ;)
d3m0nger Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Every Elite player starts either with a barracks or alter, the humans usually go farm/barracks/alter at the same time, which is best, or barracks/farm/blacksmith, for Rifle man, which can be used against Ne skum.Im an orc player now, and im pretty good with them, i wooped alotte high leveld players, anyway, I know a thing or 2 about Ud as well, i got this Bo from a level 25 player :built 2 aco's, at the same time built : alter,crypt and as soon as possible built a a ziggurat, then when ur first ziggu is almost ready, built your next ziggu, make ghouls as soon as possible and at the same time make more acolytes until you have 3, and when you do, send your 4/5/6 ghouls with your Death knight(which is ud's best hero) to the nearest gold mine, creep it, and get your 2nd gold mine up and running, built 3 ziggu's infront of it, and 2 graveyards infront of your ziggu's, after your second gold mine is running, upgrade your necropolis to Tier2, mean while, get about 20 ghouls. When your upgrade is finished, upgrade your halls of the dead right away to Tier3, (since you have 2 graveyards your ghouls schould be at level 3.3 before your halls of the dead reaches tier3) after your starting to updrade your halls of the dead, get 2 temples of the dammed, and 1 slaughter House, get about 4 - 6 Abominations, and waste the rest of your food limit by building Banshee, they are the best Ud units in the game, they can posses other units, so if the enemy gets alot of strong units( lets say knights) you can steal them, this way your foodlimit can be over 90.You have plenty of money to do anything, there are just a few playes who can figure out that you exped so fast, with this tactic that works almost on every map against every opponent will get you level 15+ in no time.Glavatar
Fuzi0n Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 Yeah exactly fast expanding brought me alot of wins, although good players send their 6th aco to scout so they can see if their opponent is early expanding.
rogue1896 Posted January 2, 2003 Posted January 2, 2003 congratulations nav, you've created a topic that discusses strategies for WC3 in an emperor forum. i guess there was a point to your post after all.
Navaros Posted January 2, 2003 Author Posted January 2, 2003 argh! can you guys please stop discussing only War 3? *I* compared it to Emp - so if you guys are gonna discuss War3 in this thread then make sure you relate it to Emp as well. don't spam this thread with irrelvant War3 babble.hahahah north - you'd get so owned by trying to use those varied BOs! - LOL! guess you never played any good players yet because War 3 allows no room to stray from the conventional BO and Win unless the guy you are playing has no clue what he's doing. all because Blizz was too stupid to make an Under 3 Rule like the one which greatly enhances Emp gamplay and makes sure all Emp players are free to be creative and still Win.
DukeLeto Posted January 3, 2003 Posted January 3, 2003 Nav, you should know if you bring up WarIII, people will start discussing it. Heck, it gets discussed in threads that have nothing at all to do with WarIII. *Glares at poeple*
Taqwa11 Posted January 3, 2003 Posted January 3, 2003 Well, C&C Generals supposedly will have no under-three rule. I just hope that its matchmaking works better than Emperor's so that you get matched up not only with people of similar skill, but people with similar connections. The ONLY good reasons for the three-minute rule are:A worm or storm wipes you out early.The other guy gets a great crate, such as a Guild or a Devastator right off the bat.The other guy has a terrible lag.Being rushed IS NOT a good reason for the three-minute rule. The fact that the other guy used a BO that gave him an early advantage over you is NOT a good reason for the three-minute rule. The reason people like Nav prefer the three-minute rule is because they can bail out if the game doesn't go exactly as they want it to from the beginning. For a long time, Nav was infamous for quitting under three when his own rush attempts failed. He's still well-known for quitting if you rush him. I, for one, have NEVER quit under three to avoid a loss. If there is a big lag, I wait it out for awhile to see if things improve, and I talk to the other guy and ask him about his game speed settings, etc. Only then will I DC. I'm not a "demi-god," to use Nav's words, but those players who consider themselves very good at this game should be able to handle the first three minutes well enough that they ALWAYS get through them with a good chance of winning.
Navaros Posted January 3, 2003 Author Posted January 3, 2003 taq, you have no conception of what i have said.would i be able to handle most rushes *IF* i used a conventional BO (which I always choose *not* to use because they are boring and strategically-weak) even though ATR is fundamentally weaker than the other Houses by a *huge* margin? probably. maybe not sometimes. morally speaking, should I *have* to? of course not, that's unfair. however, these are not the important questions as far as the message being conveyed in this particular thread is concerned, and i feel i must spell it out since you and n00bs reading this thread alike don't seem to understand:it is *impossible* to beat any good, very-early rush in Emp if you do not get a Fac first. not hard, not unlikely, *impossible* having to conform to a standard BO is nonsense for the reasons outlined in my original post in this thead and i don't care *how* good you are, if you don't get a Fac first in Emp and are too chicken to quit under 3, your lose. end of story.
GhostHunter Posted January 3, 2003 Posted January 3, 2003 Nav you must learn to always be on the offensive, ask Viron, Rogue, Darkruler, Slaphapy5, Nyar, Skumruler, and many more, I myself are hard to get to harvesting wise and destroy my harvs because if you get past my offense and into my harvs you wont stay there long, isn't that right anyone I just listed? And once I get started I dont stop am I right, or is Navaros's idea of Atreides true?
rogue1896 Posted January 3, 2003 Posted January 3, 2003 if you don't like rushes and like to use 'unconventional' build orders, play on a map that isn't inteded for rushers. i.e. almost any 8 player map. that way by the time anyone gets to your base you are already ready to deal with it, so therefore it'd be suicide in most cases. and for that reason most people wouldn't try to rush. and like taq said, the purpose of the three minute rule wasn't for rushers, or at least i don't think it was. as far as i know it was so that if the game was horribly laggy you could quit without it counting on either side. rushing is a tactic though, if you can't handle the rush that's your problem. i'm sure emprworm has something on his strategy thing that allows for an early enough production of units as well as enough for a 'massacre' at the end.
Navaros Posted January 3, 2003 Author Posted January 3, 2003 quitting under 3 is a perfectly legit way of "handling" a rusheri play QM tournament games mostly, because they are more meaningful, but they have no 8 player mapsI do always go on the offense whenever the opportunity arises. but for an ATR to go on the offense early vs. a good player of another House is suicide for the ATR. i do it when it's feasible, and vs. a good Hark or Ordos player, it is never feasible for ATR to launch a full-scale attack very early into the game
Elite47 Posted January 3, 2003 Posted January 3, 2003 Quitting under 3 is for weak ppl, who are scared to lose. ppl who quit under 3 prolly will build ref,fac and a rusher will build fac,ref... i rush, u lose now. Why dont u try another bo like sard,fac,ref or fre,fac,ref, or fac,fac man u got no skill. its ok though... ill wait 4 minutes to trample over you Navaros and ill build fac first. Atreides rushers own! you suck! you cant rush with atreides cuz u suck! Please take your n00bical spam off these forums you're giving ppl bad advice and they might get teh wrong impression. they should be taking advice from elite players with experience and good advice, which would cancel you out, and then we would have a bunch pf good players instead of super duper pussies like yourself. BTW u must be pretty damn cool nav, you got no life except on an emperor forum WHERE NOONE LIKES YOU~ youre like one of those kids that everyone wants to beat up and throw in mud puddles~ you are not elite, so STFU NooB!!
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