sneezer3 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 If there is no God, all of our lives are in vein. If there is a God, and you reject Him, your life will still be in vein anyway.As an Atheist, I do not understand the logic behind this statement. Can you please clarify what it means in detail?Are you suggesting that if you have no God (in the case of Atheists) that your life is in vein (as in not worth living, or living for no purpose?) What exactly do you mean by 'life in vein'? ???What that he ment was<or at lest i think this is what he ment>. say there is a God. you life would be as an Atheist in vein. there wouldn't be no point to it but to disprove God. and therefore if he is alive. you life on hold no value.on the other hand. if he isn't and the the big bang is true. your life would hold almost no value. since you came from nothing. your life would be pointless but to disprove you came from something. and even if you did disprove it. your life would still be pointless. there would be no purpose to it. you came from nothing. and there is no reason you should live any longer. :)
Anathema Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 If there is no God, all of our lives are in vein. If there is a God, and you reject Him, your life will still be in vein anyway.As an Atheist, I do not understand the logic behind this statement. Can you please clarify what it means in detail?Are you suggesting that if you have no God (in the case of Atheists) that your life is in vein (as in not worth living, or living for no purpose?) What exactly do you mean by 'life in vein'? ???What that he ment was<or at lest i think this is what he ment>. say there is a God. you life would be as an Atheist in vein. there wouldn't be no point to it but to disprove God. and therefore if he is alive. you life on hold no value.on the other hand. if he isn't and the the big bang is true. your life would hold almost no value. since you came from nothing. your life would be pointless but to disprove you came from something. and even if you did disprove it. your life would still be pointless. there would be no purpose to it. you came from nothing. and there is no reason you should live any longer. :)That smiley makes the whole text offensive. Are you suggesting atheists might as well commit suicide?
TMA_1 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 the big bang in many scientists views was just an occurance that happened billions of years ago. Energy, which was the only thing in the universe, condenced and exploded, antimatter and matter were made from it and still more explosions occured. latest theories show it didnt happen at just one point but "everywhere at once". It is just a theory and shouldnt be taken as canon.
IxianMace Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 What that he ment was<or at lest i think this is what he ment>. say there is a God. you life would be as an Atheist in vein. there wouldn't be no point to it but to disprove God. and therefore if he is alive. you life on hold no value.on the other hand. if he isn't and the the big bang is true. your life would hold almost no value. since you came from nothing. your life would be pointless but to disprove you came from something. and even if you did disprove it. your life would still be pointless. there would be no purpose to it. you came from nothing. and there is no reason you should live any longer. :)You're confusing me even more. The question was directed specifically at emprworm. I will await his response, as I am sure that he knew exactly what point he was trying to make.
Acriku Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Yes if I, an atheist for now, am right, there is no heaven and I just fade into non-existence. If I am wrong, then I go to hell. There is no win in my case, but you see having no win is not a consequence of atheism, it is a reality. I have this life in my hands, and whatever I do with it will emerge my worth in this world, my point to live and to die.
Edric O Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Like I said, Acriku, you are the only one entitled to judge the worth of your own life.
sneezer3 Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 "Are you suggesting atheists might as well commit suicide?" You could say i was thinking ahead to what emprwom might say when he replys. but i was not trying to put words in his mouth. As for the smiley. i din't mean anybody to be offended by it. i'l edit and remove it. ;)but if you think about it. if evolution is true. then there isn't much of a point in life. besides to live it. and to fullfill all of your disires. good or bad. if my logic is flawed then explan how. if its true also. you couldn't much arugue with somebody that is going to kill thereself.
Anathema Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 For animals there is only the urge to live, not reason. We are different.
Acriku Posted January 4, 2003 Posted January 4, 2003 Sneezer you don't seem to have a good grasp on what evolution is. All evolution is, is changes of the frequency of the alleles in a gene pool from one generation to another. Or basically changes in the properties of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual, basically moves on through the offspring. That's what evolution is. Where in there do you see kill, survival, etc? We all know evolution exists, no scientists refutes that. Nobody should refute this, because it's been seen in nature and in labs. That is not what is at question here. What is in question here is how it occurs. And there are theories about it, such as Darwin's theory, survival of the fittest. Does that clear it up for you?
Dude_Doc Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 See this topic turned into "another religious flame war". Hehe, well, you can as well hear my point as well. I have some "private positive/negative theory". Don't know if anyone else have/had it, anyways... I was thinking of, if there is a positive, there must be an equal opposition to it, a negative. No shadows without light. And, well you can call me crazy (and no, I don't have proof of these claims :P), I have considered this theory into the real world, what has happened, what will. We can even see this in religion: namely Heaven and Hell. Heaven is the ultimate good/positive side, so Hell must be the ultimate bad/negative side. God is ultimate good, and the Devil is ultimate evil, that we can all agree on. We can see this in science, a positive side need a negative. If you were to erase all positive or negative poles in all atoms in the whole universe, it would collapse. And also in life: when we do something ultimate good, we work hard to achieve (negative), we can get our revard (positive). And I think our lives follow the same pattern. We live, we "fight" for our survival, we have to get money to pay everything, we have to pay for food to live and so on. So in another view, you can say that the whole life is a negative end of it all. Heaven is the positive, because there we can do whatever we desire.As I said, I have no whatsoever proof, or quote or any backup for this theory, so well, I welcome any counter-proof you may have :).Next point in topic: Does God exist? For atheists, no. For christians, yes. And there is no proof. I believe in God. Why? Because I believe He must have created the universe, and as well as our existance. Why? Well, if you go back in time, the most logical explanation to this universe birth must be the Big Bang. And even that is a theory. So? Big Bang held everything we are doing now. It held every rule this universe applies to. And so comes the next question: from where did the Big Bang come from? And if the Big Bang came from another source of power, from where did that one come from? And the most logical answer I can provide to myself is: God created it. As we know it for now, everything must come from something, right? 0=0! That means that 1=1, or 1=0.5+0.5 and so on. And the only one who can change 0=0 into 0=1 is God. He has the power to create anything anywhere at any given time, past, present or future. Okay, so from where did God come from? He always have existed, will always exist. Like Edric and others here said, time outside the universe, or the place God is in, does not exist. Time is a rule applied to this universe, to this planet, to us. Why doesn't God tell us why we exist, or why doesn't He proove that He exist? A hard question indeed. Well, in a point of view, He has already prooved that He exist, we can read that in the Bible. Sure, I don't expect everyone who reads the Bible to start believing in God, but think about it. If people 2000 years ago or even further, were so "stupid" as you call it, how could someone just gotten the idea to "write" religion out of nothing. So person X wakes up with the perfect idea to rule the world, he creates religion. This will affect on a global scale thousands years into the future, but what did person X gain on it then? What does he gain on it now? Nothing! So what about Jesus all miracles? Well, of course everyone on the whole planet can't see him at the same time, which means not everyone on this planet can witness his miracles. And I don't expect everyone that was living a normal life, that suddenly experience how a man heals another man with his bare hands, go insane instantly. What if a large mass of people, that were living normal lives with normal parents, suddenly saw a flying pink elephant, with great white wings. They all agree on what they saw. Now imagine, one of these people is your friend. You know him as an everyday nonbeliever, who does not believe in supernatural things (ghosts, alien abductions, the matrix etc). He lives a completely normal life, does his work like evryone else. And he is also completely sain. Your phone rings, and you hear him tell this story about a big flying pink elephant with big widespread wings. He constantly insist that he saw it. You meet him, and you can see that he is actually telling the truth (he is not laughing). And so each time you ask him about this, or whenever you two talk about this, he insist that this is the truth, and that he would swear on anything that this is indeed the truth. So what? Your best friend suddenly goes crazy? He changes just like that? So there must be something in what he said. The same goes for the Bible and the people who witnessed Jesus miracles. I also think that this whole "why" question may be just too big for us humans to understand. What if we found out that God really exist, and that if we all died, we would go to Heaven and never again have to learn anything, work anymore, spend time on useless work that someone "up high" reads once and then throws it away. Why do we have to live when we can have everything we ever wanted if we die? That is why we have doubt in any religion. And so the final question: Why (if God exist (in anyone other's eyes)) did He have to make the universe so big? Well, if you consider the other questions, it is to make our existance believeable. We know for example that our planet is round, because every other planet in this universe is round. We know that we have a gravity that points to the center of our planet, because every other planet has it also. And yes, I am aware that we discovered this before we knew of any planets in our solar system, so to say, but in the universe, we can find other "things" that prooves that not only Earth applies to the rules of this universe. And the meaning of this? So that we can have freedom enough. How, for example, would it feel if no matter what we did, we would never be able to reach another place than Earth is there were only Earth and the moon and the sun, and nothing more? I'm saying that mankind couldn't stay on one continent, but had to move to others. And long time into the future, we won't be able to have the whole human race here on this planet. It is in our nature to expand and explore. Life is meaningless if we only exist, we must fight for something: survival, overcoming great barriers, do the impossible. And the universe gives us the best opportunity to do this. Even when we will be able to reach distant solar systems in this galaxy, there will be the challange to reach other galaxies, explore what they include. If we would live in a cage, what would the meaning of life then be? We get fed, we can move and do what we want, but that's just it, we're living. We have to fight for something, we must have pain, becuase these things makes us alive, it makes us who we are, that every misstake is vitali for future generations to learn of, every border is vital to break. And so we get the somewhat size of the universe: unlimited. And if we do nothing, we will simply fade away. Time will take us. And yes, in the end, we won't have anywhere to go because time will aslo consume the universe in the end. And that's where the Apocalypse enters. And now, over to you :).
emprworm Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 i made this statement earlier:"If there is no God, all of our lives are in vein. If there is a God, and you reject Him, your life will still be in vein anyway."Some of you hear wondered what I meant. I will let an "ex" atheist explain it for you- much better than I can.Please, if you have time, read this page. It is truly amazing to read.http://www.ex-atheist.com/2.htmlMake sure that at minimum you read the paragraphs under the section "RATIONAL THOUGHT REPLACES MY COMPASSION FOR OTHERS "Did you read the section RATIONAL THOUGHT REPLACES MY COMPASSION FOR OTHERS ?Ok, now read it, I just cannot possibly explain it better than he did.
Acriku Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 I see your reasoning, dude_doc, but perhaps there is something more to it, not a matter of balancing, because there's chaos all around us, and who said Hell was all that bad? 8) I remember a joke about hell being nice and there was a spot for christians beneath the fun beaches where all the torture they believed in was only in there. ;)So you believe in God out of ignorance? Note that ignorance isn't an insult, we are all ignorant of how the universe came about, but we shouldn't resort to a conclusion out of ignorance. But hey we all do it :)
IxianMace Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 I read the paragraph RATIONAL THOUGHT REPLACES MY COMPASSION FOR OTHERS, and as far as I see it, that person has absolutely no respect for life, or self awareness in particular.I will leave it at that, I do not want to spark a flame war over differing opinions. All I can say is that I do not share his values or his way of thinking.
hilamobster13 Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 ok, back to my argument:if the big bang did indeed create time (which is really just a measurment, so it cant be created.)and space, then what created the big bang?? even if it was energy for that created the big bang, what created the energy??
Acriku Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 Empr, this person obviously can't do anything for himself, and he has to be completely dependent on religion. And do you realize that he is saying that being an ex-atheist, he abandoned all rational thought and science? Or perhaps I couldn't bare any more whining and fits and didn't read on. Anyways, I can't find that joke online, damn it was funny.
hilamobster13 Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 seriously though, im not trying to say that christianity is rational, im just trying to say that its just as irrational as everything else.
Dude_Doc Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 Acriku: "Better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven", sounds familiar huh :)?I got it from Deus Ex, the very beloved game of mine hehe... actually, I think it was quoted from someone, not sure who...
Dude_Doc Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 About the chaos thing: We can find both positive and negative ends in chaos too. I mean, chaos is just some randomize unstable mass, as I would view it hehe, but even in chaos you can find equality. Like I said before, if you remove all positive or negative "dots" in the chaos, the chaos itself would collapse. I may have said before that all positive and negative points care pointed against each other, and in some greater matter, yes, like the Heaven and Hell, life negative-after death positive, but I believe that the same quantity of negative and positive "dots" also exist in chaos. And quantity is the main point of this. Whenever we can find a great spot of only negative points, we can be sure to find another spot, probably with equal quantity, filled with positive points. As for my belief: you may also have a point ;). To be honest, I believe in a kind of mix between scientifically explained facts, and "spiritual" facts. To make the sentence shorter, I could simply say: "Where science can not reach, Religion takes over". With this I don't mean that because we don't know exactly what kind of minerals can be found on Pluto, that must have something to do with God. No, I believe that where science can not reach as a logical destination, say, outside the universe or the question "from where did "Everything" come from", I believe "spirituality" and belief of a Greater Being, comes in. In my case, God. So if we find out that there are enormous slimy bugs beneath the surface of Mars, don't come flaming me that "God does not exist" or something like that :D.
emprworm Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 Acriku, that atheist is being truly honest. The pure, true end of atheism is that all life is just hapless unguided random chance, and no life has any more value than a brick, or a glob of hydrogen atoms, or a few photons scattered in space.This is the truth of atheism. You know it deep down, Acriku. Laugh all you want, but those words, in the heart of any true honest atheist would ring true.there is no purpose in life. you have no purpose, and no hope.how can you claim otherwise and be an atheist?and if you claim otherwise, after explaining how- please tell me what is your hope and what is your purpose?
emprworm Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 Like I said, Acriku, you are the only one entitled to judge the worth of your own life.well, Edric, I would just want to clarify this.Subjectively, yes, you are correct. Acriku can determine his subjective worth. But objectively, that value is not for Acriku to determine.Example: I have an old tin box my grandma gave me when I was a child. To me, it is worth a lot, but objectively, it is a scrap heap of worthless tin. I couldn't get 2 bucks for it, even though I place great value upon it. So it is not accurate to say that it is ACTUALLY valuable- only valuable to me.That said, the question is now: What is the value of Acriku's human life?We are not interested in his subjective value. We are interested in his ACTUAL, OBJECTIVE value. What is Acriku truly worth?If God exists, he is worth a great deal. His value is determined by God and he is of great worth.If God does not exist, he is as worthless as a quivering mass of organic pustules, or a chunk of frozen gas orbiting in the rings of Saturn, or a pulsating neutron in the outer core of an unknown neutron star in a lifeless galaxy on the edge of the universe. And that goes the same for all of us. If God does not exist, we are nothing but masses of particles which came together in chance chaos and random, hapless unguided riff-raff; doomed to experience pain, loss, suffering, misery, and ultimately death, while the atomic particles that once comprised our brains and our bodies move on to take other forms- such as rocks, mud, air molecules, etc. There is no more worth and value for a human life than that of a gnat or a speck of meteoritic dust.
hilamobster13 Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 we dont need to sit here and try to argue our religions into others, guys. ever notice how everything here involving life, the universe and everything gets turned into a religious debate? break the circle, guys. let the feng shui balance of religioso in these boards keep everyone incheck, and try to stay on topic.peace is the message im spreadin'.because im a symbol, like prince.
Acriku Posted January 5, 2003 Posted January 5, 2003 Hey empr guess what? BAM! I shot you in the head. You are dead. You fall down. I hover over your limp body and whisper in your ear, "Reality's a bitch."And it is. Maybe you need to cower in the corner hanging onto religion for whatever it is worth, but I go out into the world and face the harsh reality that surrounds us, and I stand tall. I don't need the hope that religion offers, I accept death, I embrace death as an end to my direct journey. I make my purpose! I, a human fucking BEING can make my own purpose in life. I don't need religion to cling onto and walk through life blindly guided by the hope that religion offers. So take your religious ass of that computer chair, and walk outside. Strip yourself of all that is religion for just a minute, and embrace the sunshine of life that your hope has shielded from you. That!-- Is atheism.
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