Hedonism and its effects.

[Edric O]

Acriku, don't get me wrong. I'm not blaiming NASA. They're doing the best they can (which isn't much, unfortunately) under the circumstances. But they need far more money and more public attention! Space is the future of Mankind, but your government seems to have got its priorities all mixed up...

[Acriku]

OIC, well yeah I agree, and if we were all united (and no wars) we can direct more funding for the space trek!

[VigilVirus]

Space exploration was only exciting as a part of the Space race during the Cold War. After that - things went down. The only thing right now is the International space station, but it doesn't look like it's getting until quite a while...

I agree about the united thing. The countries of Earth would have to unite under a signle government for any kind of space colonization to take place, I mean look at all the space scifi series - Earth is united.

Quondam, who are you to criticize a country's money management? I mean, yes, the communistic government has failed to provide for a long-lasting economy, but that was BECAUSE of the space race and other programs. It was logical to stop funding them, because anyway they have become quite useless after the Cold war was over.

[quoudam72]

Quondam, who are you to criticize a country's money management? I mean, yes, the communistic government has failed to provide for a long-lasting economy, but that was BECAUSE of the space race and other programs. It was logical to stop funding them, because anyway they have become quite useless after the Cold war was over.

I am Quondam but beyond that it is not important. My criticism is not without facts that I add to this discussion. Russian bureaucracy is what made Russia collapse from the inside out. It was not the space program or any of their other programs that you say it was the government itself. Who I am to criticize has no weight it is of no matter. The fact that my criticism has weight is what matters. :)

[VigilVirus]

It was the governmental policy of funding the space and other programs instead of developing a stronger economy that led to the downfall. The Cold War race exhausted the funds - people were starving and the income lowered as the people became poorer.

Your criticism has little weight, for you do not look at the CAUSE of the governmental failure.

[quoudam72]

You are funny. Maybe if we quit trying to out do one another in comebacks you would see the picture as a whole and not parts. The government is responsible period.

The history of Czarism and the Revolution, the Civil War, the war against Nazi Germany, and the decades of living under the US nuclear threat taught workers that imperialism was their enemy. The state was built and defended by the Soviet workers for the purpose of freeing them from these evils. Likewise, it was this same state machine that was supposed to suppress the growth of petty crime, gangsterism, corruption, anti-Semitism and chauvinism. How could they overthrow this state without opening the way to the domination of all these reactionary forces? Russian failure is deeper than the last 20 years. If you know the history of Russia then you might understand better what I am saying.

[VigilVirus]

LOL, what a stupid comment. I know the russian history far better than you, because I myself am russian.

The government is responsible, but I am looking at the specific aspects of the governmental failure.

It is true that the system was doomed from its very beginning in the October revolution, because communism itself was seriously flawed. What made it even worse is that the proletariat had no knowledge of how to rule and manage a country. It is like assigning a governmental job to someone who has just found out what the word "economy" means.

The Communist party basically dominated and the leaders of it were dictators.

After WWII and the defeat of the Axis, Soviet Union focused its resources in beating its nemesis superpower USA, instead of dealing with the crippling loss of 20 million people and the poor living conditions of its people - and that is where cause of the eventual crumble of the economy lies. All those decades put into developing more advanced technology, space exploration and weaponry had a horrific impact on the country.

As the Cold war neared to its completion, the Soviet Union economy began to crumble, because the citizens themselves had no money. The government desperately tried to balance the economy, but couldn't, because of the lack of skill and money.

So the real cause behind the poor economy and governmental failure to stop the collapse was the Cold War.

[Digital Guerrilla]

Vilgilant Live you silently agree with quondam because your post mirriors his in alot of ways.

[Anathema]

We created nuclear weapons, better us than them, eh? We prevent the world from facing total annihilation.

And what is so great about inventing nuclear weapons?

It could be argued that if nuclear weapons have not been developed, the world would be go into chaos afterwards, many new WW would have followed destroying the countries of Earth.

I mean a WW in 1917 and then in 1941. We haven't had one since. Why? Because of the deterrance effect of nuclear weapons.

WW II already began in 1939 ::)

As for the Soviet union, the party neglected the states problems and didn't think long term. But Breznjev was the one that really messed up. He consolidated his power and that of his friends so that eventually you only had conservative people of 70 years and older. The Soviet union became a geriontocracy with no innovation.

I think that Kruschev (Breznjevs predecessor who was relieved of duty by the party who did not like his ideas) could have saved the union but then again, who knows.

[VigilVirus]

Yes, that's right, I was thinking of when the conflict began in Russia (operation Barbarossa). My bad.

My post does not mirror quondam's for I show why the government had this problem - he doesn't want to see that it is mainly the Cold war and its projects that caused the economic breakdown.

[quoudam72]

he (quondam) doesn't want to see that it is mainly the Cold war and its projects that caused the economic breakdown.

What was Russia's state of economic affairs before the Cold War? During Russia's challenge of the West during the Cold War yes the economy stagnated and the nation was drained by the burden of an impoverished and overstretched empire. If you point to the Cold War my questions to you are who then started the Cold War? Did Stalin's policies cause the Cold War? Did America and Britain over react to Stalin's policies and cause the Cold War as a result?

[Caid Ivik]

Only thing whole Soviet Union was working on were tanks.

OK, half-true, they made also some planes, nukes and ships....

[VigilVirus]

BOTH started the Cold war. Remember Churchill's Iron Curtain and the view of US on communism?

[quoudam72]

Yes Vigliant I remember what Churchill said (speech at Westminster College in the USA) he effectively accused the USSR of expansionist policies which would eventually lead to world domination, called for a military alliance between the British Empire and Commonwealth states and the USA to stop Soviet expansion. Churchill was not the prime minister at the time (Spring of 1946) if I am correct but still it made Stalin angry.

[Anathema]

I believe it was him. He invented the term "iron curtain".

[VigilVirus]

Exactly. Then the NATO and the Warsaw pact were formed as two opposite alliances.

[quoudam72]

Also do not forget the Truman doctrine as known as the policy of 'Containment of Communism' along with the Marshall Plan.

[ordos45]

After the Warsaw Pact collapsed one can notice how NATO has seemed to be eager to absorb the countries in it.

Hitler's greatest mistake was screwing the Soviet Union. He had a non-agression pact with it, had he not broken that Pact he could have conquered all of Europe without worrying about the Soviets. Of course, he had to screw everything up by attacking the Soviet Union, who already had his forces being beaten back by the time of D-Day.

(Interesting note on D-Day, I was reading from the WW2 Class history book. If anyone had been brave enough to wake and convince Hitler to allow the panzers in France to counter-attack in Normandy the US/British attempt to open the second front would have failed. However no one saw fit to wake up Hitler, thus the panzers never went against the landing forces, and thus at least a little pressure was taken off the Soviet Front. Soviet entry into the war was what won it.)

Btw, what happened to hedonism?

[Edric O]

D-day was not about beating the nazis. The Soviets already had that covered, and were well on their way to Berlin. D-day was about getting Allied troops as far to the east as possible, to stop the Soviets from claiming all of Europe. Otherwise, as someone once said, "the Brits would have been staring out accross the Channel at the westernmost tip of the Soviet Union for the past 50 years".

[Anathema]

Yes. Stalin had asked the allies for opening another front since the start of the war, and they only started one when it turned out the soviets were going to win ::)

[TMA_1]

hmmm... I dont know about that Edric. Seems a little overthought.lol