Evolution and Creation

[Acriku]

You loathe the idea of kneeling before a superior being. That is most likely the real reason you refuse to believe. But if you want evidence, it is there. A mountain of it. But because you don't believe in God to begin with, it is pointless arguing evidence for Christianity. Therefore, I am not going to focus on that topic. I am going to focus back on the topic of the existence of God. You accuse me of committing equivocation. You are repeatedly committing the fallacy of the red-herring and the strawman. You want to muddle the issue by

drawing focus off of talking about the question of God's existence by mixing it up with the accuracy of the Bible. Those are two completely different topics and it is 100% futile to talk about the Bible with an atheist. First we talk about "Does God Exist". Therefore, I am not going to talk about the BIble whatsoever because that is irrelevant to that question.

Ah, another mistake. You assume I don't want any superior authority to be under, and that is why I am an athiest. It is not likely at all. I have not met any athiest online and offline that is an athiest because he doesn't want the burden of a superior authority. I accept superior authorities all the time, police officers, teachers, the government, my father, my commanding officer in ROTC, etc. Yet again you commit an ad hominem fallacy, the Genetic fallacy, where all you are doing is attacking why I'm an athiest and not athiesm itself. This has no relevance to the topic, so please try to stay away from these.

[Dude_Doc]

But even if you don't believe in God, don't you want to believe? I mean, do you want to just -dissapear- after you die? I don't.

[emprworm]

fine, Acriku

[Acriku]

It is directly related to the Christian God, and its existence. Establish the falsity of the Bible, which the Christians follow as THE Word of God, and if you do that you prove the word of God is false, therefore there is little reason to believe in such a God.

[pointybum]

Now he's struggling with maths. I seldom say this anyone online - get a fucking life. You are talking complete bull and I honestly think you know it too. You will argue the case that the world is flat next.

pointybum, the one that needs a life is you. THis is simple high school math. Either you are not yet 14 years old, or you are an uneducated person who spends too much time wasting your brain on playing computer games. The math is very simple. SInce you obviously cannot understand it, i feel sorry for you because you dont care about education or your schools haven't taught you much. However, if you are a child who has not yet taken high school math, then that is ok and I dont hold anything against you. I am hoping that when you get to high school, they will teach you simple algebra. I am sure that most people in here who know simple algebra can understand it. And if you tell someone who studies mathematics to "get a life" then you have just told all the scientists at Intel and the geneticists trying to cure AIDS to get a life as well. Studying math is a noble profession, one that you could use dearly. So stop playing computer games and start studying things that matter. You dont have to believe in God, thats not what I am saying. I am saying that you should learn things that matter more than this fictional game.

And lastly, dont waste up the entire forum quoting my entire post just to post one sentence. What you did was rediculous and I believe it is against forum policies. If you want to make a short comment on my entire post, just quote a part of it. You don't need to quote 2,947 characters just to respond with a tiny 2 line post. You are wasting this forum.

Mmm.. I am a 34 psychologist with a BA and a MSC. I teach a program of re-integration into society 2 days a week to a drug rehabs clinic, I have 15 people on my books who pay me to make them feel better through some use of my input. I must be doing ok. I guess I do my job well because I have an open mind, which troubles me when I read your crap.

I have a nice life, I made my life - not god, not some higher being. My mother and father eloped, brought me up, gave me this gift of life - nobody else. The sooner you realise how corrupt the religuous faiths are the better you will realise what a small prick you sound. You mock other faiths, you mock non-believers, and quite frankly, if you were in the same room as me you'd certainly get a knuckle sandwich.

Put yourself in a palative care ward full of children for a whole day, and then tell me there is a god or whatever you personally want to call it. I've done it, I've spent a whole week in a ward - what do you tell these children that are dieing? What do they understand other than they should be out playing, they should have a whole life ahead of them. How's that? Why's that?

So, yeah, I dont care if this thread gets thrown in the can. You offend all faiths by assuming you have the answers and your faith is above others - which is merely suggesting that the others have got it wrong and you are right - doesnt that start wars as per usual?

Why cant people just accept things the way they are, dont preach - history is full of misery and bloodshed - just smell the flowers instead. Not too much to ask is it?

So, fuck off worm, people like you just ruin it for everybody.

[Anathema]

Hey, no cursing!

Emprworm, you claimed moral code is objective. I've discussed this before with Edric, I'd quote myself, but I forgot wich thread.

Suppose, in 200 years the US and Europe are ruled by christian zealots. They put atheists, agnostics and non christian believers in detainment and slavery camps. They claim that the people in the 20th and 21th century betrayed the principles of the bible by putting up a soft attitude towards non christians.

Hey Bob, you know what they did 200 years ago?

I don't know, Bill, what did they do?

They tolerated non christians!

What? You're kidding!

No, I'm not. They lived along side eachother, worked with eachother, and visited the same places.

Terrible! Good thing we know better these days, and put those pagans in camps, where they're supposed to be!

[TMA_1]

Christians were hated for 3 centuries. Finally with Constantine, the christians were able to worship freely. Sadly though the catholic church sprouted up. The catholic church caused many evils. They even killed off sects of christians that were totally toward the bible. I could list them if you want earthnuker. Dont blame christians because of the catholic/protestant churches. They were evil in many ways.

[Anathema]

Don't say protestants are always on the right side, because that's bullsh1t. I can quote one example (though I could easily look for others). Sadly, it involves my own country. After we revolted against the Spanish, we treated the catholics very badly. The spanish brought catholism to the Netherlands, and were seen as tyrants by the protestants. Catholics were long time considered not to be equal citizens.

[emprworm]

I have a nice life, I made my life - not god, not some higher being. My mother and father eloped, brought me up, gave me this gift of life - nobody else. The sooner you realise how corrupt the religuous faiths are the better you will realise what a small prick you sound.

i dont dispute your life or your happiness for your life. But your intolerance and closed mindedness is kind of sad. You have no tolerance for others. The majority of this world believes in the supernatural- probably upwards of 90% of it. So you are better than them now? You are smarter, wiser, and superior in intellect? Please. You cast judgment on all religions as if you know everything there is to know about the universe. The truth? YOu are just a 90% bag of mostly water. And if there is no God, then you have no significance other than a heap of biological matter- metabolizing nutrients, expelling waste, and inseminating the female gender to propogate your species. Thats it. If there is no God, then your sum value in this universe is equal to that of a lump of dirt. Thats the cold, hard truth. Now, if you want to believe that- if you want to believe you are just a giant randomized conglomeration of hapless particles that somehow through chaos found their way into forming your meager existence, then fine. It is your right to believe that. But dont lord yourself over others or think you are somehow intellectually superior because they believe that there is a real purpose in this universe.

You mock other faiths, you mock non-believers, and quite frankly, if you were in the same room as me you'd certainly get a knuckle sandwich.

unless you produce a quote of me mocking another religion, I will dismiss this ad-hominem attack. I have said numerous times even in this thread that I RESPECT faith and belief. I told Aikriku that i respect his beliefs- the only thing I dont respect are those who are too arrogant to admit their faith and be done with it. I happen to enjoy talking with earthnuker and adriku. I think they are intelligent people. I have no agreement with them, but they know how to control themselves. You need to learn that. Everyone can believe whatever they want. I force my views on no one. THis thread is to discuss this issue. I am here talking about the TOPIC of this thread. I am not out of line. YOur personal insults, however, are.

There IS someoneo mocking here. And it isnt me.

So, yeah, I dont care if this thread gets thrown in the can.

a typical response from an embittered man who wants to impose his narrow minded views on everyone else. And if that fails, he wants to silence them. Yea, all of us are enjoying this thread and here comes Mr. Know-It-All going to lock it down because of his closed-minded intolerance. How about you just ignore us and let us dialogue. We dont need you here if this is how you are going to be. I want a respectable, rational discussion about a very important topic, not an excercise in rampant uncontrolled emotional chaos. If you are too offended by me and unable to control your emotions, then please, by all means, just dont respond.

You offend all faiths by assuming you have the answers and your faith is above others - which is merely suggesting that the others have got it wrong and you are right - doesnt that start wars as per usual?

If people are offended by another mans personal beliefs, that is to their own discredit. That is their own weakness. FInd your own path, dont let your life be ruined on account of someone else's personal conclusions.

Why cant people just accept things the way they are, dont preach - history is full of misery and bloodshed - just smell the flowers instead. Not too much to ask is it?

accept what? That we are just a bunch of randomly strewn particles without purpose or meaning - with no hope and no real value? Accept that the universe is uncaused despite all scientific evidence to the contrary? Absolutely not. I will not accept that. However, I do accept that to each person, freedom to believe whatever they want.

So, fuck off worm, people like you just ruin it for everybody

unacceptable language. I would rather not have this thread locked on account of your inability to control your emotional rage. Get a grip on your emotions, and use your mind, then we can have a rational dialogue.

[Anathema]

If you make such insulting statements you aren't just offending Pointybum, but also me and other atheists. Consider well what you type, unless you want this thread to become a flame war.

[emprworm]

Earthnuker: i consider everything I say. At times, I become passionate about my point of view, but I am not going to make it personal by saying things like F-off to someone. That is uncalled for. If you are offended by something I say, please let me know exactly what it is (by quoting me) that personally offended you and I will try to explain. It is not my intent to personally flame anyone. However, it IS my intent to voice my opinions regarding religion in this thread. Religion is a sensitive topic, and some people get emotionally aroused when it comes up. Those people who get too emotional over this topic should probably stay out.

I hate to have a good thread locked on account of personal flaming. So, if you feel personally insulted, please quote me, tell me why your feelings were hurt, and I will try to clear it up- because that is not my intent. You and Aikriku have said some pretty bad things about my beliefs, and my country. Yet I dont take it pesonally. I know you are just sharing your opinion. But pointybum crossed the line.

[Anathema]

I wasn't emotionally hurt by anything, but the quote below suggests hatred. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

YOu are just a 90% bag of mostly water. And if there is no God, then you have no significance other than a heap of biological matter- metabolizing nutrients, expelling waste, and inseminating the female gender to propogate your species. Thats it.

[emprworm]

great quote Earthnuker. Lets talk about this:

It is a scientific fact that a homosapien is appx 90% water, which is contained withihn a leathery layer of skin. Perhaps the term "bag" was demeaning, but i only used it because it fit well.

All humans metabolize nutrients. Thats the only way they can live. A human being in this regard is no different than the most basic lifeform. They metabolize, expell waste, inseminate, ovluate, and propogate. I want you to tell me how you can ascribe any objective value to such a lifeform in the absence of a God. Since those 90% bags of mostly water (homosapiens) are here just by hapless chance- forming at random, upon what rational basis can you ascribe any REAL value to them? How is such a lifeform any more valuable than another lifeform that does the same thing (metabolize, expell waste, inseminate, propogate)?

I dont see how its hateful at all -if you are an atheist, its just the cold hard truth. Find a rock in the bottom of a lake. What purpose does it have? Why is that rock there? Is there some sort of greater "meaning" for that rock being there? Likewise for humans, how is a 90% bag of mostly water (homo sapien) any different than a random rock sitting in the bottom of a forgotten lake?? Are you denying that you are a biological mass of mostly water?

[pointybum]

I have a nice life, I made my life - not god, not some higher being. My mother and father eloped, brought me up, gave me this gift of life - nobody else. The sooner you realise how corrupt the religuous faiths are the better you will realise what a small prick you sound.

i dont dispute your life or your happiness for your life. But your intolerance and closed mindedness is kind of sad. You have no tolerance for others. The majority of this world believes in the supernatural- probably upwards of 90% of it. So you are better than them now? You are smarter, wiser, and superior in intellect? Please. You cast judgment on all religions as if you know everything there is to know about the universe. The truth? YOu are just a 90% bag of mostly water. And if there is no God, then you have no significance other than a heap of biological matter- metabolizing nutrients, expelling waste, and inseminating the female gender to propogate your species. Thats it. If there is no God, then your sum value in this universe is equal to that of a lump of dirt. Thats the cold, hard truth. Now, if you want to believe that- if you want to believe you are just a giant randomized conglomeration of hapless particles that somehow through chaos found their way into forming your meager existence, then fine. It is your right to believe that. But dont lord yourself over others or think you are somehow intellectually superior because they believe that there is a real purpose in this universe.

You mock other faiths, you mock non-believers, and quite frankly, if you were in the same room as me you'd certainly get a knuckle sandwich.

unless you produce a quote of me mocking another religion, I will dismiss this ad-hominem attack. I have said numerous times even in this thread that I RESPECT faith and belief. I told Aikriku that i respect his beliefs- the only thing I dont respect are those who are too arrogant to admit their faith and be done with it. I happen to enjoy talking with earthnuker and adriku. I think they are intelligent people. I have no agreement with them, but they know how to control themselves. You need to learn that. Everyone can believe whatever they want. I force my views on no one. THis thread is to discuss this issue. I am here talking about the TOPIC of this thread. I am not out of line. YOur personal insults, however, are.

There IS someoneo mocking here. And it isnt me.

So, yeah, I dont care if this thread gets thrown in the can.

a typical response from an embittered man who wants to impose his narrow minded views on everyone else. And if that fails, he wants to silence them. Yea, all of us are enjoying this thread and here comes Mr. Know-It-All going to lock it down because of his closed-minded intolerance. How about you just ignore us and let us dialogue. We dont need you here if this is how you are going to be. I want a respectable, rational discussion about a very important topic, not an excercise in rampant uncontrolled emotional chaos. If you are too offended by me and unable to control your emotions, then please, by all means, just dont respond.

You offend all faiths by assuming you have the answers and your faith is above others - which is merely suggesting that the others have got it wrong and you are right - doesnt that start wars as per usual?

If people are offended by another mans personal beliefs, that is to their own discredit. That is their own weakness. FInd your own path, dont let your life be ruined on account of someone else's personal conclusions.

Why cant people just accept things the way they are, dont preach - history is full of misery and bloodshed - just smell the flowers instead. Not too much to ask is it?

accept what? That we are just a bunch of randomly strewn particles without purpose or meaning - with no hope and no real value? Accept that the universe is uncaused despite all scientific evidence to the contrary? Absolutely not. I will not accept that. However, I do accept that to each person, freedom to believe whatever they want.

So, fuck off worm, people like you just ruin it for everybody

unacceptable language. I would rather not have this thread locked on account of your inability to control your emotional rage. Get a grip on your emotions, and use your mind, then we can have a rational dialogue. For a 37 year old, your lack of rational control leaves me to ponder if the mid life crisis is kicking in.

I am 34 - not 37, and no, I dont take shit from the likes of you who fail to see how insulting you are - the fact that I said fuck off to you demonstrates how you prioritise your thoughts - I am genuinely angered by you because of that substance that crawls out of your arse - namely verbal diarrhoeal shit.

You are refusing to take the real world into context in all your speech, you refuse to take the scientific context into your speech, and the worst part of it, you lack empathy to the suffering that religion causes - THAT IS MY ARGUEMENT.

We get loads of tourists in my country, especially americans who like to look at our old buildings - especially churches - some of them are over a 1000 years old. As they stand and marvel at such a construction, their blinkeredness reveals nothing of the suffering in the construction of the church, the suffering that the faith has caused, and the wars it has caused in that 1000 year period, again over a book that was written by persons who could write for persons who couldnt read.

I am looking at the suffering - thats all, and I have been trying to get answers off you - what would the place be like without religion? Is that remotely possible? But oh no, what do I get - just your lank efforts at being patronising, offering nothing educational to clear the path for religion over scientific fact. All you have done is answered your own points over and over again, often contradicting yourself.

Whats wrong with you? Are you blind? Hadnt it occurred to you why the world is in such a mess? And yes, I am blaming religion - I am blaming people with brains like yours who ruin it for others. I've said it, others have said it - you are brainwashed - I wouldnt trust you on my next flight to new york, no way.

[emprworm]

Whats wrong with you? Are you blind? Hadnt it occurred to you why the world is in such a mess? And yes, I am blaming religion - I am blaming people with brains like yours who ruin it for others. I've said it, others have said it - you are brainwashed - I wouldnt trust you on my next flight to new york, no way

Ok, you have some issues to deal with. THis forum and this thread is not the place nor the venue to help you deal with whatever rage you are dealing with. I value this thread and this discussion. I am sorry that whatever took place in your life caused you to have such bitterness and emotional hatred, but I can say that unless you deal with it, it only hurts you in the end. YOu need to work out some things internally. You are an angry man and bitterness will only eat you away. I do hope that whatever it was that happened in your life to cause you to have such a negative emotional outpouring over a very funadmental, healthy subject to talk about get fixed someday.

I do not want this thread locked, so it is better if you and I do not talk anymore (at least in this thread). This subject is a vital one. The question of God's existence is perhaps the most important question human kind can ask. If you cannot talk about it rationally by controlling your emotions, then it is better if we do not talk at all.

From this point on, I cease any further dialogue with you in this thread.

[Acriku]

i dont dispute your life or your happiness for your life. But your intolerance and closed mindedness is kind of sad. You have no tolerance for others. The majority of this world believes in the supernatural- probably upwards of 90% of it. So you are better than them now? You are smarter, wiser, and superior in intellect? Please. You cast judgment on all religions as if you know everything there is to know about the universe. The truth? YOu are just a 90% bag of mostly water. And if there is no God, then you have no significance other than a heap of biological matter- metabolizing nutrients, expelling waste, and inseminating the female gender to propogate your species. Thats it. If there is no God, then your sum value in this universe is equal to that of a lump of dirt. Thats the cold, hard truth. Now, if you want to believe that- if you want to believe you are just a giant randomized conglomeration of hapless particles that somehow through chaos found their way into forming your meager existence, then fine. It is your right to believe that. But dont lord yourself over others or think you are somehow intellectually superior because they believe that there is a real purpose in this universe.

Not trying to be picky, but I was taught we were 75-80 percent water, or I'm probably getting this confused with the Earth ;) But anyways, we have no significance but the significance we create for ourselves. I have no meaning, so I create one. I don't have one created by another being, I make my own. And since when did dirt "metabolize nutrients, expel waste, and inseminate the female gender"? I dunno, I'm just being picky. Once again, I make my own significance.

But even if you don't believe in God, don't you want to believe? I mean, do you want to just -dissapear- after you die? I don't.

Yes it's scary, but that's why I make everything I can of life. I don't believe in God out of fear, I lack a faith in God out of joy for life itself.

[emprworm]

its ok, Acriku

[pointybum]

great quote Earthnuker. Lets talk about this:

It is a scientific fact that a homosapien is appx 90% water, which is contained withihn a leathery layer of skin. Perhaps the term "bag" was demeaning, but i only used it because it fit well.

All humans metabolize nutrients. Thats the only way they can live. A human being in this regard is no different than the most basic lifeform. They metabolize, expell waste, inseminate, ovluate, and propogate. I want you to tell me how you can ascribe any objective value to such a lifeform in the absence of a God. Since those 90% bags of mostly water (homosapiens) are here just by hapless chance- forming at random, upon what rational basis can you ascribe any REAL value to them? How is such a lifeform any more valuable than another lifeform that does the same thing (metabolize, expell waste, inseminate, propogate)?

I dont see how its hateful at all -if you are an atheist, its just the cold hard truth. Find a rock in the bottom of a lake. What purpose does it have? Why is that rock there? Is there some sort of greater "meaning" for that rock being there? Likewise for humans, how is a 90% bag of mostly water (homo sapien) any different than a random rock sitting in the bottom of a forgotten lake?? Are you denying that you are a biological mass of mostly water?

I am a biological mass of water, yes like all people, like most mammals, like most warm blooded creatures.

Science is great - science is about to prove the existence of life on mars. Erm.. How would that go down in your mind, then? Are you going to discredit that because it is not written anywhere in your so-called book of life?

What you demonstrate is how stuck in the ancient past you are, how you are stuck on an old manual that has been re-written so many times, translated so many times, and then mis-understood so many times.

Anne Frank, her diary, is apparantly the most read book second to the bible. It shows her hope, her love, and her fears. We all know the conclusion. Isn't that ironic, like a billion other things when religion casts a shadow upon times of desperate need.

Have your opinions, by all means, but dont talk shit you know nothing about. It looks like you have to find solace in your book because it appears you have no respect for life with its cycles, it beauty, and its fragilities, despite what science has to offer. But be warned, your book will be of no use to you when the terrorists are knocking on your door to use your phone, unless it is the phone directory you are holding and not the bible.

[TMA_1]

"Dont blame christians because of the catholic/protestant churches. They were evil in many ways."

I said both catholics and protestant churches jackass.lol read the posts! geesh Thats what you get from foreigners I guess.lol

[pointybum]

Whats wrong with you? Are you blind? Hadnt it occurred to you why the world is in such a mess? And yes, I am blaming religion - I am blaming people with brains like yours who ruin it for others. I've said it, others have said it - you are brainwashed - I wouldnt trust you on my next flight to new york, no way

Ok, you have some issues to deal with. THis forum and this thread is not the place nor the venue to help you deal with whatever rage you are dealing with. I value this thread and this discussion. I am sorry that whatever took place in your life caused you to have such bitterness and emotional hatred, but I can say that unless you deal with it, it only hurts you in the end. YOu need to work out some things internally. You are an angry man and bitterness will only eat you away. I do hope that whatever it was that happened in your life to cause you to have such a negative emotional outpouring over a very funadmental, healthy subject to talk about get fixed someday.

I do not want this thread locked, so it is better if you and I do not talk anymore (at least in this thread). This subject is a vital one. The question of God's existence is perhaps the most important question human kind can ask. If you cannot talk about it rationally by controlling your emotions, then it is better if we do not talk at all.

From this point on, I cease any further dialogue with you in this thread.

Instead of trying your hand at being patronising, put your answers to where your mouth is - you wanted a debate, you got it. You havent done anything to shred light on any questions, just moved onto the next without thought thoroughfare. Oh, dont get me wrong, you think a lot but there is quality thought and then there is bollocks. Your post represents bollocks, whereas edric, acriku and quite a few many more lent plausable comments to support the religious theory as well as against.

What do we get from you? Paragraph after paragraph of nonsense to everybody but you. Go back a few pages and try to understand why this thread is in danger of being binned.

It's not because of me, it's because of you stupid boy.

[Anathema]

"Dont blame christians because of the catholic/protestant churches. They were evil in many ways."

I said both catholics and protestant churches jackass.lol read the posts! geesh Thats what you get from foreigners I guess.lol

Okay, to avoid misunderstandings in the future, what are you? Do you worship some African God ::). The fact is that all christian groups (any religious group) commited crimes.

Pointybum, are you Dutch?

And Emprworm, you kind of gave the impression of saying "ahteists are bags of water, nothing more". Essentially that is what I believe, but it may sound maliciously intended from a religious person.

Anne Frank, her diary, is apparantly the most read book second to the bible. It shows her hope, her love, and her fears. We all know the conclusion. Isn't that ironic, like a billion other things when religion casts a shadow upon times of desperate need.

Anne Frank was a jewish girl who lived in fear and hiding from the Germans and collaborators. The persecution of jews was a terrible thing, but how is this a religious crime?

[Dude_Doc]

What if we don't find any inteligent life anywhere? Say another 10000 years pass, without any sign of other beings. What if we are alone?

[DjCiD]

Anne Frank, her diary, is apparantly the most read book second to the bible. It shows her hope, her love, and her fears. We all know the conclusion. Isn't that ironic, like a billion other things when religion casts a shadow upon times of desperate need.

Anne Frank was a jewish girl who lived in fear and hiding from the Germans and collaborators. The persecution of jews was a terrible thing, but how is this a religious crime?

Maybe not a religious crime but a crime aginst a religion/race.

[Caid Ivik]

Darn, you write too fast, one day and two pages? :-

Holocaust was caused by nationalism and primarily materialism. Central Europe countries were spread by Jews, controlling vast economical resources of Germany, also much other countries. People were jealous, so they elected Hitler, who was fanatically against them.

[Edric O]

I've done it, I've spent a whole week in a ward - what do you tell these children that are dieing? What do they understand other than they should be out playing, they should have a whole life ahead of them. How's that?

I can give them hope, let them know that death is not the end, and help them find at least some peace. You can give them Nothingness. A great Void. Oblivion.

Perhaps you do not understand, Pointybum, but my religion is about love. Christianity is about love for your fellow man, which should take precedence over all else except love for God:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

- Mark 12:29-31