Evolution and Creation

[katnip03]

well then that makes you much better than me, doesn't it?

[Acriku]

Because I plan to go to college?

[katnip03]

No, I have also been to college. It is just that no matter what anyone says, you always have a better answer.

[emprworm]

quote]Empr, you are really stretching it.

I read it as I see it. If you want to stretch it, you have all the freedom to do so. We already had people in this thread try to scientifically debunk that the ark was large enough to hold all of the land animals, to which was proven drastically otherwise. We had ppl try to disprove a world wide flood. Nope, it is now a universally scientific recognized fact that the earth was once flooded.

Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away but the word of God remains forever" This is the second law of thermodynamics.

How is that? The 2nd law states that energy spontaneously flows only from being concentrated in one area to becoming spread out. How in the world does this sound like what Jesus said?

You very loosely state the 2nd law. It by no means does not say "becoming spread out" it confirms entropic prinicples which is exactly what Jesus said would happen to the universe. Not even Aristotle, Plato, or the other myriad of so-called "scientists" in his day would have even conceived that the universe is moving towards such a state. By the way, this view of the universe in a state of decay is mentioned several more times in scripture. It is a view that is 2000 years before its time, only in the last 100 years proven by science.

If you want to chuck it off, go ahead. I read it literally and thats exactly what it says.

"It is God who sits above the circle of the earth" - Is 40:22

Assuming it was translated correctly and not from an ambiguous word, God told them this no? That's the only way they could have known, so if God told them that, did he also tell them :

Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."?

It was translated correctly and it says circle. Circle is round. I choose literal interpretation, while you stretch.

As for leviticus- you are exactly right. Fortunately, Christ came to fufill the law, including the law of Moses.

The stars are too great in number to count Genesis 15:5

Maybe they didn't want to count 6,000 (or couldn't) stars that they did see? This says nothing about astronomy only to how incompetent they were.

however you want to minizmize it, I really don't care much. The fact is that such a view was not common and went against current 'scientific' theory for millenia.

Earth floats freely in space Job 26:7

Oh wait, I thought the Earth didn't float freely? Something about spinning on axis with the Sun's gravity...

LOL! You stretch and stretch. Let me put it simply so that you evolutionists can grasp the magnitude of this: if a cave man neanderthal scrawled in a cave wall 2 million years ago: "The earth floats freely in space," first of all there would be a lot more ppl believing in Panspermia and second of all it would seriously leave one to wonder just how in the world someone could have known that 2 million years ago when such a concept as the "earth floating in space " could not really even be conceivable to them.

Life is in our blood Leviticus 17:11

And you take "blood" literally?

Uuhh, yea. I dont stretch. I read it like it says. Last I checked, blood means ...uh...well. blood.

They could have meant blood as in family.

Or they could have seen somebody die with blood draining out, so they deducted that life is in the blood. Come on man there are so many interpretations, and yours is stretching it.

So many interpretations? I challenge you to read Romeo And Juliet by Shakespeare (or any other play) and do a report for school. When it gets to the line in Act 4: "How happy I am to see you, my lady and my wife." You should say something like "Well, did he really mean he was happy? Should we interpret this line to mean what it says? Of course not. If we really wanted to stretch the text, we would interpret what Romeo is saying at face value. If we assume that Romeo indeed means he is happy to see his wife, then we do not do justice to the text. Shakespeare could have written that to deceive us and actually wanted us to THINK Romeo was happy, when indeed he was distraught..." and on...and on...and on.

When I read a text, I just read it. I dont look for hidden meanings or all this mumbo jumbo about alternate interpretations unless the context calls for it. In this case, since you are just spewing aimlessly and have no idea what you are talking about because you didnt even read the verses, I will quote them in context and let YOu tell me if it is talking about some guys family or whatever the heck else you strecth it to mean:

Leviticus 17:11 (God speaking)

For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Lev 17:14 (God speaking)

it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, 'You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off

Since God created us, I think its pretty safe to say he means "BLOOD'. Especially since the above verses forbid the deliberate consumption of blood. And the above verses cite a medical scientific fact that was not known until the 18th century.

And you want to think it means family?

lol. ok man, whatever.

[Acriku]

You very loosely state the 2nd law. It by no means does not say "becoming spread out" it confirms entropic prinicples which is exactly what Jesus said would happen to the universe. Not even Aristotle, Plato, or the other myriad of so-called "scientists" in his day would have even conceived that the universe is moving towards such a state. By the way, this view of the universe in a state of decay is mentioned several more times in scripture. It is a view that is 2000 years before its time, only in the last 100 years proven by science.

Ok, he said Heaven and Earth will pass away. So Heaven is really out there to be energy floating around? Or is it that Heaven and Earth passing away is just putting more power to "but the word of God will remain forever" and only putting more power into it, nothing else. No sudden understanding of the laws of thermodynamics.

It was translated correctly and it says circle. Circle is round. I choose literal interpretation, while you stretch.

I only said assuming it was not ambiguous because angellos like Nema said could mean anything, and I wondered if the word for circle in the ancient text could mean anything as well, leaving it to the reader to interpret it at his will.

however you want to minizmize it, I really don't care much. The fact is that such a view was not common and went against current 'scientific' theory for millenia.

Oh please, saying there are too many to count does not mean there are more than 6 thousand. It just means there are a lot, and seemingly too many to count. Atleast that's what I interpreted it as.

LOL! You stretch and stretch. Let me put it simply so that you evolutionists can grasp the magnitude of this: if a cave man neanderthal scrawled in a cave wall 2 million years ago: "The earth floats freely in space," first of all there would be a lot more ppl believing in Panspermia and second of all it would seriously leave one to wonder just how in the world someone could have known that 2 million years ago when such a concept as the "earth floating in space " could not really even be conceivable to them.

When do cavemen fit into this? And don't cavemen refute the Bible? Goes against the Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel stories (since they were the first and could speak a language). Anyways, think about it. You are the head of the church and you believe Earth to be the center of it all. You know there is space, stars, and God out there. Would it not be common sense to think that the Earth wasn't exactly stuck on a chishcabob stick? Ah well, in a matter of speaking we are but you get what I'm saying. Studying the stars could tell you right then and there that they moved around, so it would be easy to think that since they move we move, too. Or atleast I might. Back then. If I lived back then. Which I don't. Ok.

Uuhh, yea. I dont stretch. I read it like it says. Last I checked, blood means ...uh...well. blood.

Blood could mean brotherhood, family, symbol of life, etc. Doesn't have to mean plasma and blood cells.

When I read a text, I just read it. I dont look for hidden meanings or all this mumbo jumbo about alternate interpretations unless the context calls for it. In this case, since you are just spewing aimlessly and have no idea what you are talking about because you didnt even read the verses, I will quote them in context and let YOu tell me if it is talking about some guys family or whatever the heck else you strecth it to mean:

If you read at facevalue then that is defeating the purpose, because much of the bible is metaphorical! You have to understand the meaning behind each lesson, each command brought forth by God, each prayer told at dinnertime. Come on man don't tell me you just read it and don't think at all about it.

And you want to think it means family?

lol. ok man, whatever.

Allow me to quote myself:

They could have meant blood as in family.

Note "could have". Not "they meant". "could have". But since you were so nice as to show the whole context I retract my possibility.

[emprworm]

If you read at facevalue then that is defeating the purpose, because much of the bible is metaphorical! You have to understand the meaning behind each lesson, each command brought forth by God, each prayer told at dinnertime. Come on man don't tell me you just read it and don't think at all about it.

the Bible contains 4 types of text: narrative, poetry, prophecy, discourse

only in poetry and prophecy do you deal with a lot of metaphors. They are used in narrative and discourse, but literal interpretations should always take precedence before looking for a hidden meaning. I.E: When the Bible says in a narrative text that Paul went to Corinth, we should interpret that to mean exactly what it said: Paul went to the city of Corinth.

You read the bible just like any other book.

[Inoculator9]

You can't take a lot of the bible at face value. Those two types of writing represent a large portion of the bible. For example, we can never know the exact thought of it's authors. And it is entirely possible that they meant something other then what we at first think they did.

[emprworm]

uhhh, lets see there innoculator:

"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."

-John 1:6

Hmmmm....I think its pretty easy to know exactly what the author was saying.

When people read the Bible differently than anything else, then they come up with all these excuses about interpretation.

I read the Bible just like I read what you write in your post. Sometimes you might not be sure, but usually its pretty obvious what they are saying. The old "no one knows what they meant" is just an excuse for people who do not want to believe it.

[Acriku]

But not everything is like that inthe Bible. It has stories with morals, which you can't get reading at facevalue.

[Inoculator9]

I didn't say that all of it wasn't straight forward. But the bible can be a very controversal thing. Some people can see things as metaphorical and others see them as literal. I'm not saying that all of it is metaphorical, I'm just saying that the bible uses symbols on occasion.

[Acriku]

Are you talking to me inoc? Because I was replying to empr, not yours :)

[Inoculator9]

We agree, I was talking to empr.

[emprworm]

Some people can see things as metaphorical and others see them as literal.

yes some people do see things as metaphors first, but that is their error. They are reading the Bible differently than they read other things and this should not be. I read your post, it was pretty clear what you were saying. I did not look for a hidden metaphor in your post Innoculator. People who reject what the Bible just plain says because they want to re-arrange everything are committing grievious literary errors, especially in Narrative or Discourse textual portions of the Bible (which make up at least half of it). Metaphors are abundant in the poetic and prophetic books, but not so much in the narrative and discourse. The Bible should be read just like any other literary work. I challenge anyone to do something so erroneous in a college level literature class.

[Inoculator9]

Just as you say, the narratives contain significantly less metaphors then other parts. I was basically agreeing with you. The only problem I have is that you seem to be implying that the bible contains very few prophetic sections. This I disagree with.

[emprworm]

no, it does contain many prophecies, i agree with that.. and yes prophecies are often a point of many differing interpretations. i agree with this too. but when people use the old "hey it could mean anything" argument on books of discourse such as Ephesians or say a narrative like 1 Samuel, then they are really stretching it because those books should just be read plainly.

[Inoculator9]

That I agree with. The bible has plenty of metaphors, but it's not chocked full them. People can't try to explain everything in the bible with a different meaning then is obviously implied.

[Acriku]

Yeah, but also think of the time they were in, while they wrote it. The language wasn't where it is today, so a lot of things that may seem literal may actually be metaphorical.

By the way, I just thought of this while bagging some old ladies groceries:

That verse says God standing on top of the circle or something like that. Notice circle is not 3 dimensional! They could have been saying that the flat earth was a circle, like a pizza. A pizza standing on it's crust with God above it smelling the good stuff. Who knows what they were smoking as well ;)

[DjCiD]

now you know whats coming from those incense burners :P ;D

[Caid Ivik]

Acriku, find and post that verse. Or get a Bible with official commentary.

[Repoman]

Well yes, technically that was a flame. Just like these:

Religion is racist, homophobic, sexist and dividing..... all traits of man.

Once achieved the fallacy of religion will be exposed once and for all.

Dont worry tma edirco usually comes up with some crap like that when he has no answer for what you are saying.

Take away a persons faith and they will see religion for what it really :Pis..

a fabrication.

these are statements you moron

while me calling you a moron is a flame ::)

Edrico For someone who can understand the one country concept you amaze me. How can one person say such an intelligent statement then next thing come out with a statement that is on par with a gorilla.

To take a great aussie quote from crocodile dundee

that's not a knife THIS is a knife

that's not a flame THIS is a flame

You are a gullible unintelligent simplistic fool who has no idea on life. 8)

quote]Empr, you are really stretching it.

I read it as I see it. If you want to stretch it, you have all the freedom to do so. We already had people in this thread try to scientifically debunk that the ark was large enough to hold all of the land animals, to which was proven drastically otherwise. We had ppl try to disprove a world wide flood. Nope, it is now a universally scientific recognized fact that the earth was once flooded.

You didn't prove shit man. If you honestly believe that God had 2 of every creature on earth in a ark you are a Imbecile. It is not a scientific recognised fact! ::) You have not once presented one scerick of hard core scientific evidence for any of your arguments. By your own admission you could not explain how techtonics fit into the God equation as it contradicts the God made the mountains in one day concept. You use nothing but historical opinion, the bible(opinion)(inspired by god ::)), and opinion from others which is based on historical opinion. ::)

Why do 99% of scientists believe in evolution???

Because 99% of scientists base their opinion on evidence

[DjCiD]

I think we are all forgeting something.... no matter how much evidence you say is out there and that it prooves evolution is right, nothing has been proven. They are all still theories, nothing HAS been prooven... but yet we all go around saying no thats wrong this is right, no THATS wrong THIS is right... when in actuallity we are all just speculating. I try to listen to all sides and not argue too much... keep an open mind to others opinions (cause thats what they are ;D)

[Anathema]

Now give eachother a hug ;).

[DjCiD]

GROUP HUG!!GROUP HUG!!

*SQUEEZZEE*

[Inoculator9]

I agree. Nothing is proven. Everything is only a theory. I was thinking about something recently that kind of has something to do with this. We have memories of doing things. But only memories. What if aliens were implanting memories into us, because the next day we remember doing something, but it's just a memory of doing something. If you've seen City of Darkness, then this will make a lot morer sense to you.

[Acriku]

Acriku, find and post that verse. Or get a Bible with official commentary.

Here:

"It is God who sits above the circle of the earth" - Is 40:22

Here we have the Bible saying the earth was round 1000 years before copernicus.

Posted by empr.