jacobdouds Posted March 23, 2002 Posted March 23, 2002 Looks like I have to clear things up for you AGAIN...Jacob, you are ignorant to think that parents passing their religion to children is the only thing keeping religion alive. Far from it! There are countless millions who converted whithout any "input" whatsoever from their parents. I'm one of them.I'm not saying it's the only thing, but it is one of the most common reasons. I know many people converted by their own will. Including my own mother.
The_old_worm Posted March 23, 2002 Posted March 23, 2002 Like I said Ordos, your own needs and desires also influence your choices of beliefs. If you are trying to say, though, that your parents, peers and society had no influence on your beliefs, then you are fooling yourself. Just because your needs sent you in a different direction for truth, doesn't mean that your parents, peers and society had no influence on you. It just means that you weren't totally satisfied with what they offered.Ordos, have you not been reading my posts? Truth is an idea, not a reality(at least not in our human perceptions). I do not mean that science, religion, and philosophy contain truth, I mean that they search for truth. The search is what they have in common. Truth is not dangerous. The proclaimation of truth is dangerous. People are so thirsty for answers, that they will accept many things on faith as long as it satisfies that need for truth. This leads to Blind Faith, which in turn leads to fanaticism. This is why I say that we all need to be skeptical of the "truths" that people proclaim in religions because usually they have some kind of ulterior motive.
jacobdouds Posted March 23, 2002 Posted March 23, 2002 Everything in your life, including the ant you saw on the pavement the other day, affects you greatly. While everything affects you, there is still free will and your choice. You may convert out of your free will. Yes, everything affects you, but it was still your choice.And yes, you are right, truth only goes as far as your own beliefs. Like a quote from a band a hate so much I won't even type the neme of. 'What you believe is true.'-"I think I think, therefore I am, I think"-
Acriku Posted March 23, 2002 Posted March 23, 2002 The "true" from "What you believe is true" is a false true that can blind you. Like cults, and you commit suicide with bunch of other believers.
evilbaronatreides Posted March 23, 2002 Posted March 23, 2002 I have a strange memory of Heaven's gate all of a sudden.....hummmmm. My opinion on death cults is thats what happens when you get a lot of like minded whack jobs togather and brainwash em. I have no problems with cults, just as long as the decide not to try to sacrifice me or anything.What Aricku just mentioned is something that has grazed this topic many times: What is this supposed "truth" and does it exist?
gryphon Posted March 23, 2002 Posted March 23, 2002 Just some insight anout that.Descartes begon his experiment to find some for of ultimate fruth. He got a long way, but afther his "cogito ergo sum" his theory is at most questionable. A lot of "great minds" have tried to compleat it but in 200 years there are still no answers. The only thing that can be said is that we at this point probbebly have now idea of what truth is, what it could be or if it even exists.This has also been caled one of the scandels of science / philosophy, the exual thing we are trying to prove just slips out of our grasp the more we try to categorise it.I myself like the theory of Kant. "there is no data uncooked by human understanding". What ever is "out there", we have now way of seeing it without the "prejudgment" of our own sences and mind.
IxianMace Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 About the main topic, well I'm just a plain atheist. I believe in nothing but science (backed up by evidence, the more undeniable the better ;D) and I'll leave it at that. I don't want to offend anyone by expressing my entire view on this topic. ;)
The_old_worm Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 I have a strange memory of Heaven's gate all of a sudden.....hummmmm. My opinion on death cults is thats what happens when you get a lot of like minded whack jobs togather and brainwash em. I have no problems with cults, just as long as the decide not to try to sacrifice me or anything.What Aricku just mentioned is something that has grazed this topic many times: What is this supposed "truth" and does it exist?Don't you see though, the only difference between those cults and organized religion as a whole it the number of people brainwashed?
nampigai Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 How can you compare cults with religions? I'm not brainwashed I just believe I don't give the chirch my money and I won't kill myself if a priest told me.
gryphon Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 I think there is a bigger difference between cults and religions as well. And although that line between them is sometimes verry thin, there is a line between those two.Religion comes from a personal believe in something, a cult dies without the prime leader that invluances his folowers for instance.
Acriku Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 It is sometimes true that without a leader it perishes, but there are cults around here that have been here for centuries. When the leader, made through sets of trials, dies, selected people go through the trials, and then a leader is born. These cults follow a book, containing rules and such. So what is the difference? Is it recognition as a religion? Nah. You guys are thinking of the stereotype of cults. The kind that has one leader, brainwashes a few people, and then tells them to commit suicide so they can meet some aliens. There is a whole world of cults and few end in mass suicide, sacrificing animals to the devil, etc. Also, how can you know you are being brainwashed? People brainwashed say they aren't over and over, thinking they have free will, but in reality they follow someone or something. For all you know, your parents brainwashed you to do chores. You may think you say yes because you willingly will do it, but it is the brainwashing talking.
gryphon Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 Yea, that's true.Couldn't have said it better myself ;)
jacobdouds Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 My point is that we cannot perceive truth, it cannot be known to us.
gryphon Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 It's strange but there are 2 types of "truth".One described already by me above, and sofar we arn't able to get any closer to that one. If it even exists out there.The second, the things you personally believe, you think are real and form your perseption of the world. You put your faith in this "truth".It's my interpretation that you, Old Worm are talking about the first one, and Jacob Douds, you are refering to the second ?:)
jacobdouds Posted March 24, 2002 Posted March 24, 2002 Yes thats right. Thank you for that. Now we can start talking about Religion again.'Mormonism, a church or a cult?'
ordos45 Posted March 24, 2002 Author Posted March 24, 2002 First of all I want to say to Old Worm, you are taking my paranoia reputation. Now I want to move on to the question just proposed.Religion. Mormonism is a religion. I consider anything that can stretch across a the world with many members a religion. SO what if when members of this "religion" come to my door I turn off all the lights and mute the TV and try not to make any noise? That or go up to them and tell them that if they try to convert me I'll slap them with a lawsuit for religious harassment.
jacobdouds Posted March 25, 2002 Posted March 25, 2002 My thoughts. There is no difference between between a Cult and a Church aside from size.
Acriku Posted March 25, 2002 Posted March 25, 2002 Why should it be differentiated by size? So to make it a religion it has to convert people all over the world? What if a whole country or state is in this cult, is it not a religion? So did every religion start out as a cult, and if so, how many cults will make it to the oh-so-great religion status, using your methods? I think the only difference between religion and cult is that a cult has a purpose, using religious methods. Be it mass suicide, achieving greater life, or just to inform people, etc.
The_old_worm Posted March 25, 2002 Posted March 25, 2002 My whole point is that in order to acieve intellectual freedom, you have to shed those "truths" and step outside of your beliefs to see the bigger picture.
gryphon Posted March 25, 2002 Posted March 25, 2002 A followup question :)The first you consider as "truth", the sencond as "believe".And this so I understand your point correct :At this point we arn't able to say what that "truth" is. We all have our own interpretations in the form of "belives" about this truth. Those belives are a representation of how whe see "truth". Now, will we be able [ as humans ] to know this "thruth" or is it something that is totally beyond our sences and will always be beyond our [ human ] sences ?You don't have to answer it, you can ofcourse also edit parts of it to make it clear.And the question isn't just for you, others may feel free to answer as well.
The_old_worm Posted March 25, 2002 Posted March 25, 2002 You hit the nail right on the head Gryphon. That's exactly my point.I am extremely doubtful that we can ever know the real truth, that not to say that our theories might not be the truth, the big bang may be exactly what actually happened, just that we will never know for sure.The best we can do is hope to find the most likely explainations, and rule out the least likely with the understanding that we could be wrong. That is where religion fails. It doesn't accept that it could be wrong.
nampigai Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 So if we will never know the truth all we can do is believe right?
The_old_worm Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 No, we should accept them as likely truths with the understanding that they might be wrong. This leaves us open to new discoveries that might contradict what we originally believed.
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