Dune 2 was NOT the first RTS

[neonext]

So many people have said it, and I believed it myself for many years, but Dune 2 wasn't the first real time strategy game. It was the first main-stream real time strategy game.

Anyone remember Sim Ant? it had resource management (go out and get the piles of food, and return them to base). you build units (ants), and even soldiers, and eventually go and attack the other base and bring them down. Your queen ant was basically your construction yard. It even had a campaign mode where you take over the entire lawn and eventually the house. I'm sure Sim Ant wasn't even the first RTS game, but I don't recall any RTS games that came before it.

[nemafakei]

The real point about DII was that it was the RTS game that actually sparked off most other RTS games.

[Gobalopper]

It may not have been the first RTS but it did start the genre that has been built up by games like Starcraft, C&C, TA, etc. Sim Ant may be RTS in nature but it isn't really the same style as Dune II.

[neonext]

yes that's true, it was the first RTS that made the genre popular, but if you ask any gamer what is involved in a RTS they will say resource management, base building, and somewhat tactical combat, all of which is in Sim Ant. Hey, you even do rushes in Sim Ant, how is it not considered a true RTS?

[Acriku]

Just how much strategy was there? Could you build various soldiers with different advantages/disadvantages, could you repair your 'ant hill', could you produce other queen ants, could you plan many different strategies based on what the opponent was doing, rather than build ants for defense or offense? Also Sim Ant sounds like a 'sim' ulation of what being an ant is like.

[neonext]

Just how much strategy was there? Could you build various soldiers with different advantages/disadvantages,

to a point, yes. you could build workers, breeders, and soldiers. an RTS game doesn't need multiple offensive units to be an RTS. if you took warcraft 1 and took away all the units except the peon and the swordsman, you would still have an RTS. Sim Ant is essentially that - the peons are the worker ants, and the swordsmen are the soldier ants.

could you repair your 'ant hill'

no, but you 'build your base' just like in other RTS games by digging different tunnels for your food to be stored and for your ants to breed. you have to defend your 'base' from rushes of enemy attacks, just like every RTS game.

, could you produce other queen ants

actually, yes. you produce ants with wings that fly to other sections of the yard (or house) and make new 'bases'.

, could you plan many different strategies based on what the opponent was doing, rather than build ants for defense or offense? Also Sim Ant sounds like a 'sim' ulation of what being an ant is like.

i'm not too sure about the strategies involved because it has been ages since i've played it, but it is all the same RTS stuff. locate and protect the resource while harvesting all of it, and you have a good chance at winning.

i agree though that the name isn't really fitting

[jacobdouds]

Just how much strategy was there? Could you build various soldiers with different advantages/disadvantages, could you repair your 'ant hill', could you produce other queen ants, could you plan many different strategies based on what the opponent was doing, rather than build ants for defense or offense? Also Sim Ant sounds like a 'sim' ulation of what being an ant is like.

This sounds fun, anywhere i can get it?

[LPC-Disco_Inferno]

for me dune2 is the first rts and the best to!

Bless

[vidiware]

well at the-underdogs.org at SDune2 they says that that a genesis game was RTS before dune 2

but HAIL dune 2 your the first youre the best! (this is good but maby not the truth, but who wants to know the truth in a case like this ::))

[neonext]

yes, you can still say dune 2 started it all

[Omniviper]

There was an RTS before Dune 2: It was called Herzog Zwei for the Genesis. This game predates Dune 2 by almost 4 years.

[neonext]

how is that when dune 2 was also made for the genesis?

[Omniviper]

the Genesis version was released after the PC version. The PC version was released in 1992. The Genesis was released in the late 1980's i think either '88 or '89.

[neonext]

ok...it doesn't pre-date sim ant tho ;D

[gryphon]

I wanted to posted this from half way throught the topic, think it's time for it now. :)

Why shoudl anyone care !?

Who cares that Unreal was the firt 2GEN 3D shooter engine and that a lot of the following games used it ?

Games like TNT outdoors Pro Hunter, Navy Seals, X-Com Alliance, Star Trek DS9: The Falen, Klingon Honor Guard, Werewolf the Apocalypse, Heart of Gaia, Return to Pa Nali, New Legends, Hired Guns, Project V1, Dr Brain's Action Reaction, Gods of War, Aeon flux, Adventure Pinball: Forgotten Island, Alien Legion, Unreal Tournament, Seraphim, X-Com Enforcer, Rune, Wheel of Time, Dark Sector, Deus Ex, Nerf AcenaBlast, Second Genesis, Clive Barker's Undying, Duke Nukem Forever, Harry Potter TSS, UT 2003, Unreal episode 2, Thief 3, Mobile Forces, Deux Ex 2, devastation, Falcome: Into the mealstrom, The Y-project, Unreal championship and Hubris: Children of Prometheus.

Same with DuneII, who cares if it was or wasn't the really verry first ? HALO is suposed to be verry good, a brand new game with controles and a level of realism in you rcarracter we havn't seen sofar.

But still you'r unable to help you fellow soldiers when you have a full MED-kit and they have to leave in that stuppid boat that get' blow away ::)

You are still the same, one hero that saves the day, yea right. . .. ::)

So Westwood promoted the game of "the first RTS, in stores now Buy it !" and you belive it ?

[ do you by any change watch the home shopping channel ? ]

Never learned that comercials don't have to be telling you the thruth about a product and the view of the generalpublic could be wrong ?

So about DuneII, they say it is the firts, but you know. There is probably some guy who made one even before. Having nothing to do on weekends and making that game. But no one has heard from that on.

Just as Bell wasn't the guy inventing the telephone, just the first to pattent the darn thing. But does anyone care that their history books show it wrong ?

And then who says you have to be able to repair and rebuild your ant hill ? That's crazy. It's a strategy game, what if ant's don't rebuild there hill but just build another ?

Are you playing C&C with the same idea in your head ? That 2 infantries should create a extra one ones a year or so, you should refuel your tanks, have vehiceles that bring those enourmous rockets to your launchers . . etc.

well, think that settles it . . . for now ;)

[Mahdi]

Bell did invent the telephone.

[gryphon]

See what I mean ;)

It was a door-to-door sales men [ or somting like that ], he had somthing to do with vacuem clears to. The device he made wasn't that mechanical luxorious as Bell's one but still the same.

He also did go to the pattent office, but the story goes he missed Alex by just a few minutes. In reality, he was a few days later, when he heard Bell pattented the same thing he whent over there.

You can find the story with the US pattent office, [ they have a book with all kinds of "funny" stories like that ] I saw it 2 years ago so some things could be a little bit twisted.

:)

[neonext]

::)

[Mahdi]

Please. The only reason the US is changing their "history", which isn't very historical accurate to start with, is because they are going through another big "we are the best people in the world" phase because of the September 11 attacks, which is why they decided to change there minds about who invented the telephone. "Hey, this italian guy, he was an American citizen. This Bell guy was Canadian. Who cares if all the evidence says that he invented the phone and the Italian guy just had two cans an a piece of string, he's American so we'll say he invented the phone!"

[gryphon]

I think you'r taking it more serious then it was ment to be. If you'd ask me who invented the telephone I would say Bell.

And I'm not saying they falsifiel history, because it's not just an American thing.

[ And just two cans with a string between them is hardly a telephone, if you would consider that you must agree that Bell didn't invent that. ]

The point I wanted to make with it is that after a thing has happend a lot of poeple and groups stand up and say "he, we where the first !".

Many of them don't hold up under the then following scruteny, some do.

The point in this case, who cares which is the first. People really don't care. For all they care Mengler invented the telephone, as long as we have it.

Same with the Dune II discussion, who cares which was first. To what should that be important, ar ewe going to buy it then, does it get a money reward, a gueness book entry ?

A few post about it ok, but all other games that should be "the first RTS".

:)

[Mahdi]

Ah, I thougth youw re referring to tjhe recen congresional action which "re-wrote" the history books tos ay that Bell did not invent the telephone,a nd it was, in fact, an Italian-American, even though there is absolutly no evidence to support it,a nd the guys "telephone" did pretty much consits of two cans and a string.

No, America isn't the only country that has "changed" history to make there country look better (Japanese schools claim Pearl Harbour never happened, for example), but they have done it quite a bit, and are still doing it, as evidenced by the whole phone thing.

[gryphon]

Yep, there is also a lot of internet sencoring. Japan and China block about one thirth of the internet an dth egovernment monitors there emails. [ still tink Big Brother was just a story ? ]

Same with Arabic countries but not in that big amounts.

And when I was in the US last week, a lot of German sites I go to appeared to be blocked.

The Netherlands is probably doing the same, I know a lot of gevernment reports and studies arn't given freely to "normal" people not working in the government.

But this is all a bit offtopic so I'll shut up now. . :-X

[neonext]

what's wrong with letting people know the truth about history? this isn't even that similar to the telephone, because both creators were close to getting it 'out there' first. in the case of dune 2, there were cleary games that were circulated in a wide audience that pre-dated Dune 2 as an RTS.

[gryphon]

what's wrong with letting people know the truth about history?

History itself is no more then a manipulation of the authers view. There is no thruth in history, it just happend.

Same as with DuneII. It's just a game, there was no real first RTS game. No one [ at least here ] knows wich it was. Nor claim that is is Dune II. Just as HALO is advertised as "the best game ever in next GEN gaming". No one is saying that's wrong. But still it is.

Dune II may or may not have been the first RTS. But the fact remains it is, has been and probably will be known as such.

And the people who know it isn't don't care about that. They know it's just "the view of the general public" instead of the "real first RTS".

The only people who care to get on a personall crusade are .. . . well, know idea exually who they are. I just think it's a wast of time replying over and over again what could have been the first RTS and doubting rules of a game into not claiming it as an RTS. [ that ant's thing ]

Verry simple, there can not be a first RTS game. The game was first, then some one started making categories ingames and it was called a RTS.

But by that time there already where numerous of games on the marked. Games not classified.

[neonext]

Same as with DuneII. It's just a game, there was no real first RTS game. No one [ at least here ] knows wich it was. Nor claim that is is Dune II.

The only reason I posted this topic is because people are going around thinking Dune 2 really was the 1st RTS, including many people that visit these forums. I never made any claims about a particular game being the first, as no one should because as you said no one really knows which _really_ was the first. And yes, who really cares what the first one was? But in a case like this, I feel it should be pointed out that clearly Dune 2 was NOT the first RTS. If i went around saying I made the first formula for Coca-Cola, I would be corrected non-stop.

Just as HALO is advertised as "the best game ever in next GEN gaming". No one is saying that's wrong. But still it is.

Dune II may or may not have been the first RTS. But the fact remains it is, has been and probably will be known as such.

I wish you would stop using this Halo example, because it is soooo not the same thing. People making claims about their products to get them to sell better or look better is commonplace, but if Bungie were to come out and say, Halo is the FIRST FPS ever! Everyone would have a problem with that, WOULDNT THEY???