[RELEASE] Dune 2000 Mission Editor

[Klofkac]

Hmmm, i wonder why realizing for example "Harvester replacement" event is so much complicated. This simple feature just consumes 3 events and 4 conditions. If harvester replacement was made for, say, 6 houses, it would consume 18 events and 24 conditions, and then you have only small place for other events. So why authors did not make one simple event called "Harvester replacement" that would do all the dirty work? In this case, all players could have new harvesters and there would be enough room for many other events.

Or why there is no event setting like "Run only once"? It would save many and many dummy conditions, for example in order to make "Someone was annihilated" message appear only once.

[Skorocel]

Hmmm, i wonder why realizing for example "Harvester replacement" event is so much complicated. This simple feature just consumes 3 events and 4 conditions.

Exactly my thoughts, Klofkac! This is btw the reason why I've ran out of events in the aforementioned O8V1 mission (I made a Harvester reinforcement to both Atreides & Harkonnen, which meant no less than 6 new events - instead of just 2)...

[mvi]

Do the AI players need a harvester replacement event? I would have thought the AI logic would just prioritise building a harvester with a heavy factory.

[Gruntlord6]

Do the AI players need a harvester replacement event? I would have thought the AI logic would just prioritise building a harvester with a heavy factory.

not really, they are very good at keeping track of resources allotted.

[Skorocel]

If there's a limit for the events & conditions, is there a way to somehow increase it or not? 63 & 47 isn't bad, but still...

[Skorocel]

Do the AI players need a harvester replacement event? I would have thought the AI logic would just prioritise building a harvester with a heavy factory.

I would say yes & no. In the original Dune 2000 single player campaign, all but one or two levels (I think it only happens in A3V1 & A3V2 with Ordos) don’t have this feature, which in my opinion was a BIG mistake by Westwood, because if an AI enemy is without this “automated” Harvester reinforcement, you can often eliminate him right in the beginning of the level (for example the Emperor base in H9V1, just very near your starting position). All you have to do is to take your starting units, quickly destroy his Harvesters, and he’s gone. Of course, this also shows a somewhat “unfinished” AI, because if it was programmed properly, the enemy would simply sell some of his buildings and build a new Harvester (in which case the reinforcement event wouldn’t be that necessary, of course)… But if I’m not mistaken, I’ve never seen an AI enemy sell a building in order to build a new Harvester. If you destroy his Refinery, he’ll sometimes sell some of his stuff (and even this doesn’t happen all the time), but that’s about it. Of course, another option would be to simply increase the enemy starting money, which would make destroying his Harvesters (and therefore cutting him off collecting spice) all the more harder…

[Skorocel]

Speaking about the Harvesters, I’ve found another weird thing – once again in the O8V1 level. It happened by a pure random.

Using the mvi’s editor, I’ve added the Harvester reinforcement event to both Atreides & Harkonnen, but I’ve mistakenly assigned the dummy conditions which were related to annihilating these 2 houses (or in other words, which were required for mission win) to the reinforcement event. I assume it was because of this, but anyway, when I destroyed this last Harvester of both Atreides & Harkonnen, the message about annihilating didn’t appear (even though the game considered these 2 houses as annihilated and I was able to beat the level).

So I added 2 new dummy conditions to both Atreides & Harkonnen, and wanted to test it on one of these houses, whether the message would appear or not. Of course, in order to do that, I had to destroy the entire house, but since I didn’t want to play the level from scratch (last but not least because I made it pretty damn hard by adding Fremen & Smugglers to it), I decided to sort of „cheat“. That means, I used the Klofkac’s editor and granted myself a nice group of 50 + Combat & Missile Tanks right in front of the Atreides base (which is easier to destroy than the Harkonnen’s, btw). It worked fine and the message did appear, but what I found pretty interesting was that, once I started the attack, the Atreides suddenly began to build a new Harvester – even though I haven’t destroyed any of their Harvesters up until that point. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve never seen an AI enemy in Dune 2000 to build a new Harvester until you destroy one of their existing ones. That means, a Harvester which the enemy had from the beginning of the level – either from the Refinery or as a starting unit. As far as I know, in O8V1, the Atreides have 2 Harvesters (one that comes from the Refinery and another as a starting unit), but I’ve never seen them build a 3rd one unless I destroyed one of these two... Does this weird behavior have something to do with the Harvester reinforcement event which I assigned to both Atreides & Harkonnen?

[Mernon]

I would say yes & no. In the original Dune 2000 single player campaign, all but one or two levels (I think it only happens in A3V1 & A3V2 with Ordos) don’t have this feature, which in my opinion was a BIG mistake by Westwood, because if an AI enemy is without this “automated” Harvester reinforcement, you can often eliminate him right in the beginning of the level (for example the Emperor base in H9V1, just very near your starting position). All you have to do is to take your starting units, quickly destroy his Harvesters, and he’s gone. Of course, this also shows a somewhat “unfinished” AI, because if it was programmed properly, the enemy would simply sell some of his buildings and build a new Harvester (in which case the reinforcement event wouldn’t be that necessary, of course)… But if I’m not mistaken, I’ve never seen an AI enemy sell a building in order to build a new Harvester. If you destroy his Refinery, he’ll sometimes sell some of his stuff (and even this doesn’t happen all the time), but that’s about it. Of course, another option would be to simply increase the enemy starting money, which would make destroying his Harvesters (and therefore cutting him off collecting spice) all the more harder…

THAT sound interesting..maybe we can use it to make AI to build harvesters at will...

[AMIgaBot]

there is some problem with emperor in atreides mission 7. it does have ai but make rare trooper or light infantry to attack me 9when i put emp base on map)

that harvester thingy there was one thing about one of ordos modified missions that ai was making MCV for no apparent reason. gruntlord developped them before t he made dune 2000 portable.

[Skorocel]

there is some problem with emperor in atreides mission 7. it does have ai but make rare trooper or light infantry to attack me 9when i put emp base on map)

You need to use mvi's editor and give them (the Emperor) an AI. That should fix the problem...

[Feda]

there is some problem with emperor in atreides mission 7. it does have ai but make rare trooper or light infantry to attack me 9when i put emp base on map)

that harvester thingy there was one thing about one of ordos modified missions that ai was making MCV for no apparent reason. gruntlord developped them before t he made dune 2000 portable.

I think that Emperor's AI from A7V1 is special. I mean that the Emperor was created on map just to execute that attack when Atreides find that they are in a trap and a little Imperial Carryal reinforcement appear near your base and attacks you. It's not a "normal" AI like the Harkonnen. probably that's the reason that they build only a few units. It is similar with the Fremen AI from A4V1, but there the Fremens don't attack. At least that's why I have observed.

[Skorocel]

Finally got how the AI works with Harvesters & Carryalls…

Re: the Harvesters, the AI always counts with 2 per Refinery. That means, if the enemy has just 1 Refinery, he will never have more than 2 Harvesters. If he has 2 Refineries, he will have 4, etc. etc. He will always try to have 2 Harvesters per Refinery, if possible (that means, if he has a Heavy Factory or Starport, so that he can build / order a Harvester). If the enemy has, say, 1 Refinery with 2 Harvesters, and you add another one per Klofkac’s or mvi’s editor, he will consider it simply as a “bonus”, i.e. he won’t rebuild it when it’s destroyed. In this case, he will start rebuilding only when the number of his Harvesters drops below 2.

Re: the Carryalls, the AI always counts with 1 per Refinery. That means, if he has just 1 Refinery, he will have just 1 Carryall. If he has 2 Refineries, he will have 2, etc. etc. - regardless of how many Harvesters will be there. Same as with Harvesters, the enemy AI will always try to keep this number of 1 Carryall per Refinery, i.e. if there will be, say, 1 Refinery without Carryall, the enemy will always build one if he has the means to do so (i.e. if he has the Hight Tech Factory or Starport). If the enemy has, say, 1 Refinery and 1 Carryall (i.e. an “ideal” ratio), and you give him another Carryall per Klofkac’s or mvi’s editor, same as with Harvesters, he will consider it as a sort of “excess”, i.e. he won’t rebuild it when it’s destroyed. He will start rebuilding only when there’ll be no Carryalls (in this case, of course).

[mvi]

I think that Emperor's AI from A7V1 is special. I mean that the Emperor was created on map just to execute that attack when Atreides find that they are in a trap and a little Imperial Carryal reinforcement appear near your base and attacks you. It's not a "normal" AI like the Harkonnen. probably that's the reason that they build only a few units. It is similar with the Fremen AI from A4V1, but there the Fremens don't attack. At least that's why I have observed.

Nice information I'll take a look at it when I have a computer again (in a few weeks probably)

[Skorocel]

Just tried to add some enemy reinforcements in the O8V1 level (via the "Unit in tile" condition)... First time, it worked OK, but when I ran the level the next time, I got this annoying message: "Too many deliveries [gGameTicks = xxx]", where "xxx" represent a certain varying number. Any clues?

[mvi]

You probably need to use a dummy condition to prevent reinforcements being called in every frame that your unit is in that tile

[Skorocel]

Thanks for advice mvi, but can you please be more correct about these dummy conditions? Do I have to make a “Set condition” event as well? Just to be clear, I made 3 (three) Harkonnen “Reinforcement” events when one of your units moves to a certain tile in the Harkonnen base (together with a warning message) and another 2 (two) Atreides “Reinforcement” events when one of your units moves to a certain tile in the Atreides base (also with a warning message). So that means 5 “Reinforcement” events and 2 “Message” events. Re: the conditions, I made 2 (two) “Unit in tile” conditions (one for Harkonnen and one for Atreides, both with the appropriate X/Y values & Run count? set to “1”, of course) and 2 (two) “Dummy conditions” (again, one for Harkonnen & one for Atreides). Now, to each “Reinforcement” event I assigned 2 conditions: “Unit in tile” (once again, depending on the enemy house) and “Dummy condition” (ditto), with both being UNCHECKED; whereas to both “Message events” I assigned just 1 condition: “Unit in tile” (also UNCHECKED). With Harkonnen, it worked OK, but with Atreides, I would end up getting that warning message (I mean not the message about “too many deliveries”, but the one which I wanted to appear in game, i.e. “Enemy carryall drop detected!”) over and over again, with no enemy units appearing at all… I thought it may have something to do with the “Run count?” parameter in the “Unit in tile” condition, but as far as I know, when it’s set to “1” (as I have it), the event will occur only once (whereas if it had been set to “2” or more, it would occur more than once), so that shouldn’t be a problem I guess…

[Gruntlord6]

Thanks for advice mvi, but can you please be more correct about these dummy conditions? Do I have to make a “Set condition” event as well?

Yes, you need to be able to set the condition to true after the condition has been met, and then back to false after it is done, otherwise it will just cause an infinite loop and crash the game. I would recommend a timer that starts when the unit in tile condition is true.

Just to be clear, I made 3 (three) Harkonnen “Reinforcement” events when one of your units moves to a certain tile in the Harkonnen base (together with a warning message) and another 2 (two) Atreides “Reinforcement” events when one of your units moves to a certain tile in the Atreides base (also with a warning message). So that means 5 “Reinforcement” events and 2 “Message” events. Re: the conditions, I made 2 (two) “Unit in tile” conditions (one for Harkonnen and one for Atreides, both with the appropriate X/Y values & Run count? set to “1”, of course) and 2 (two) “Dummy conditions” (again, one for Harkonnen & one for Atreides). Now, to each “Reinforcement” event I assigned 2 conditions: “Unit in tile” (once again, depending on the enemy house) and “Dummy condition” (ditto), with both being UNCHECKED; whereas to both “Message events” I assigned just 1 condition: “Unit in tile” (also UNCHECKED). With Harkonnen, it worked OK, but with Atreides, I would end up getting that warning message (I mean not the message about “too many deliveries”, but the one which I wanted to appear in game, i.e. “Enemy carryall drop detected!”) over and over again, with no enemy units appearing at all… I thought it may have something to do with the “Run count?” parameter in the “Unit in tile” condition, but as far as I know, when it’s set to “1” (as I have it), the event will occur only once (whereas if it had been set to “2” or more, it would occur more than once), so that shouldn’t be a problem I guess…

I Had a hard time reading the rest, but a check in the box means it is not true. If you want a message to appear along with the reinforcements, give both events the same condition (unit in tile). As for the dummy condition, your event should run when the dummy condition is NOT true (indicated by checking the box for the dummy condition being used).

[Skorocel]

Gruntlord6: To be honest, I’m clueless as to why the game crashes when that reinforcement is being made... I tried the same reinforcement in the O1V1 level (just to test it, you know), and it worked without any problems. By „same“ I mean:

2 Unit in tile conditions (with different X/Y values & Run count? set to “1”, of course)

3 Harkonnen reinforcement events & 2 Atreides reinforcement events (with exact number & type of units as I did in O8V1), each with the appropriate Unit in tile condition (UNCHECKED, of course)

2 different Message events to appear along with these reinforcements (i.e. „Harkonnen not retreating! It is a trap!“ for Harkonnen, and „Large force approaching!“ for Atreides; both with the appropriate Unit in tile condition UNCHECKED)

And that was it... No dummy conditions were required at all! In other words, 2 Unit in tile conditions was all I needed to make these reinforcements to happen... As far as I know, there are at least 3 levels where such a reinforcement (i.e. per the Unit in tile condition) is being made in the game: H4V1, H5V1 and A7V1. Neither of these reinforcements needs a dummy condition either...

It may be that the game could consider the level too hard (in other words, that there are / will be too many units in it when you play it)... As I've written in one of my previous posts, I added Fremen & Smugglers to it (both with 2 different Starport deliveries, btw), so together with the already existing Emperor (who too have 2 different Starport deliveries) it makes 6 Starport deliveries. But I guess these Starport deliveries are being made in fairly distant intervals (which means the enemy has enough time to "empty" his base before the next deliveries arrive and thus doesn't get stuck with too many units), so I don't know...

[Skorocel]

In the H9V1 level, for example, there are 3 Atreides & 2 Emperor bases. As far as I understand, in order to have these bases work independently from each other, the authors build them in a way that each of these bases belongs to a different house (i.e. Atreides, Emperor, Fremen, Ordos & Smugglers). The bases which “on paper” belong to Fremen, Ordos & Smugglers, however, are all assigned to either Atreides or Emperor (i.e. they have the same index allocation number as Atreides or Emperor), and thus will “act” as if they were belonging to these 2 houses. Interesting, though, that if you use the Klofkac’s editor and add, say, a High Tech Factory to the Atreides base located in the center of the map (which, “on paper” belongs to the Smugglers), it will look differently than an usual Atreides HTF & it won’t produce the Ornithopters either – yet if you try to add, say, the Smuggler Barracks (which in reality look different than the Atreides Barracks both color- and shapewise), it will look exactly like the Atreides’ one…

Also, is there a way to build 2 (or more) Harkonnen bases with their Palace, so that there will be 2 (or more) Death Hand Missiles coming at you? In O8V1 (I know, it’s my favourite one, but what the heck?), I tried to change the Atreides index allocation to Harkonnen, but when I played the level, the newly formed Harkonnen-Atreides base had their “old”, Atreides Palace (which meant they would train Fremen instead of building a DHM). I also tried the “change structure owner” function in the Klofkac’s editor, which indeed changed the Atreides base entirely to a Harkonnen one (including the Palace), but unfortunately, the original Harkonnen base (located in the bottom right corner of the map) wasn’t “functional” at all. By “not functional” I mean that it didn’t train/build any units, including the DHM…

[Skorocel]

Thanks everyone for such "comprehensive" & "detailed" answers ... Anyway, here are 4 new things to ponder:

In the O1V1 level, for example, there are 3 conditions (4 – Base Destroyed/Ordos; 5 – Units Destroyed/Ordos; 12 – Building Exists/Ordos Refinery) which aren’t used in any event. Why?

If I’m not mistaken, all the levels in the original Dune 2000 single player campaign feature an automatic Harvester reinforcement for the player. Then, how come that this event doesn’t happen in the very beginning of the levels, when the player doesn’t have any Harvesters yet & his base isn’t destroyed too (i.e. he fulfills both criteria for this event to happen)?

In the H9V2 level, there are 3 different Starport Delivery events set for Emperor, but in reality, they don’t receive any of these units, since their Starport is originally a Mercenary one (i.e. it shares the same index allocation number with Emperor). In order to make these deliveries appear, you have to either assign a new Starport to Emperor via Klofkac’s editor, or use the mvi’s editor and change the Side field in these deliveries to “Mercenaries” (instead of “Emperor”) and also the Building Exists condition for these deliveries (Side = Mercenaries & Building Index = Ordos Starport; instead of Side = Emperor & Building Index = Harkonnen Starport).

Don’t know if it happens in other levels as well (I just tested it in O8V1 and H9V1), but anyway, it seems that the enemy AI can, at times, utilise a somewhat weird tactic. What I mean? If you try to add some units to the enemy per Klofkac’s editor or using the Unit spawn event with deploy action 2 via mvi’s editor (it makes no difference, as in both cases, these units will NOT leave the base but will just stay there and guard it, either being in guard mode or moving around the base), the enemy will use these units at the expense of his attacking ones, so to speak. For example, let’s say you add 9 Sonic Tanks to the Atreides in the O8V1 level. What will happen will be that all these 9 Sonic Tanks will not leave the base (which is, of course, normal), but what’s interesting is that the enemy WON’T build any new Sonic Tanks until you destroy these 9 (or at least some of them). Which in practice means the enemy won’t attack your base with Sonic Tanks at all. I’ve noticed that this same “pattern” is being used with other enemy units as well. Tried, for example, to add 9 Combat Tanks to the main Atreides base in the H9V1 level, and what happened was that the enemy build maybe 1 or 2 of these units, at best. It seems as if the enemy AI is using a certain “limit” for number of particular units build/trained, so it will only build, say, 7 Sonic Tanks or 10 Combat tanks at best, and it won’t build any new ones until some of these are destroyed. This, of course, isn’t the case with certain levels like A8V1 or A9V1 & V2, where the enemy can, at times, amass a pretty deadly force by simply building more and more units instead of attacking you…

[Skorocel]

Let’s say you want to add a Harvester & Carryall reinforcement event to the enemy (with both of these events requiring to have at least one enemy building standing & no enemy Harvesters or Carryalls present, of course). Then, will these 2 events share the same Dummy Condition or will each event require to have a different one?

[mvi]

Let’s say you want to add a Harvester & Carryall reinforcement event to the enemy (with both of these events requiring to have at least one enemy building standing & no enemy Harvesters or Carryalls present, of course). Then, will these 2 events share the same Dummy Condition or will each event require to have a different one?

Interesting question, ordinarily I'd recommend each have their own dummy condition. The dummy condition is used to basically say "Harvester delivery requested" to block multiple deliveries of harvesters being requested. I thought at first that it may be possible to use one dummy condition and just have one harvester replacement at a time, however when the harvester is delivered you would have no way of knowing which was just delivered and therefore couldn't set the new condition value correctly. I hope that makes sense, I can always write out a truth table to explain it better. But yes, you will need a dummy condition for each redelivery.

[mvi]

If people want, I can record some videos with audio explanation of how to use the mission editor in a week or two. I don't really have time to do written tutorials, but tutorial videos would be pretty quick to do. Is this something people are interested in?

[Skorocel]

If people want, I can record some videos with audio explanation of how to use the mission editor in a week or two. I don't really have time to do written tutorials, but tutorial videos would be pretty quick to do. Is this something people are interested in?

I'm definitely for it! First of all, I can't imagine a better explanation of how to use it than a tutorial from the original author of this (great!) program. And secondly, uploading to youtube will only help to promote it.

[Gruntlord6]

Thanks everyone for such "comprehensive" & "detailed" answers ... Anyway, here are 4 new things to ponder:

Perhaps next time your question will remain completely unanswered since you "appreciate" the help of others.