killing rushing(in general)

[Dezertfish]

Multiplayer Emporer has a disease, it is called the rush. Maybe I just suck, but it seems that whenever I play with other people, someone decides to rush. I know of only one way to counter the rush: rush first or rush better.  I can often win if I rush, but I do not enjoy these wins. Why? Because taking thirty buzz-saws or Dust-scouts and overwhelming my opponent 90 seconds into the game is too easy.  How much thought does it take for one to use these units to destroy the conyard and factory, then the barracks? It is not my idea of fun. Sure, I probably win, but winning is not fun or enjoyable all by itself. Anyone can implement the brainless rush tactic.  There fore, I decided never to rush, and if my opponent rushes, so be it. True, I will lose, but then I will have time to play again.

     In some instances (usually in 1on1), no one uses the deplorable technique of rushing. There is time to build a base, some turrets, and enough units to allow flexibility; I lose.  The reason? I have very little experience when playing against other humans(With no rushing involved.)  I try to implement strategies listed on this site, but I suck and cannot exploit their advantages because I so seldom am able to gain  experience playing against humans.  How can I go about improving when I have so few opportunities to play against people who do not rush.(Though I do play against the AI almost every day and online every few days).  I like this game, but I am unable to ever win without rushing, because I so often get rushed. I WANT TO BE ABLE TO WIN WITHOUT BEING CHEAP AND RUSHING!

Help!

PS Gob, I don't think I  put this in the wrong place, but if this belongs in the general strategy section, please move it there. Thanks

[Dezertfish]

Oh, yeah, my whole request in that last post was if ya'll know how to beat the rush without a counter-rush, please post it. And if anyone doesn't rush and would like to give me some pointers on how to get past the rushing stage of the game and beyond, I would be very grateful.

[Gobalopper]

You're likely to get more response here. :)

[cyberotte]

well u have to get alot of the more powerful units. Like if ur atr build alot of factories and build minos, or mongoosess, or both. And get lots of kinjal and other infantry but center on getting minos fast if ur atr.

If ur hark then, well rush, or use the more powerful tanks and planes and infantry after the starting battle

ordos u have to rush or the more powerful units: like minos or gunship or niab, will kill u

[Dezertfish]

:D thanks Gob.

cyberotte-the point I was trying to get across is that I do not want to rush, but because it is the only way I know of to counter a rush, I am forced to rush in order to win. But when no rush does come, I do not know what to do.

Also, if I am not rushing, is it worht it to build more than one factory?

[Chaos_Storm]

Yes it is wise to build more than one factory, that is if you have the space - it allows you to react to what your enemy is doing. You need to scout very early in the game so that you at least know where the enemy base is. It really is worth micromanaging a scout to slip past initial defences and see his entire base and the surrounding area. Then use bookmarks so that you can scan his whole base quickly and his spice fields. Watch what he is doing.

If you spot a rush, then build to counter. Mix heavy vehicles with less tough ones and infantry. If it's a Dust Scout/Sand Bike/Buzzsaw rush, then the heavy vehicles will soak up damage whilst other units can do the real damage. I find that artillery is brilliant against poorly managed rushes, especially Mortar infantry groups (with Dust Scouts preventing Buzzsaws from making mince meat). A large amount of Light Infantry is also surprisingly effective against light/medium vehicles as they are so easy to replace with multiple barracks. Just make sure they don't get run over by a Buzzsaw rush (try placing your own vehicles in their paths and let infantry shoot from behind the barrier), they can handle a Dust Scout/Sand Bike rush with sheer numbers.

If you spot a NIAB tank build up, then build advanced turrets around your base, especially behind. Fedaykin are even better along with hoards of Anti-vehicle infantry.

If you spot a Gunship/Ornithopter build up, place Engineers next to your construction yards to extend their life several times. Factories and other buildings may die to quickly for Engineers to help them though. Alternatively, try to sabotage the air force or draw it out and destroy it before it reaches full-strength.

If you spot an EITS build up, get lots of AA power to intercept them.

After the Early game when rushes occur, you need to make some tech-tree decisions. Go for a strong low-tech army or go for high-tech units? Experiment to find out but never rely wholly on high-tech units - mix with low-tech. If space is limited then this decision is even more important as you'll more likely be stuck with that decision unless you sell and rebuild.

It really depends what House you are playing, but watching your opponent is essential. Know what he/she is building up and doing, spot mistakes/weaknesses, build to counter and take down his force bit by bit. I usually win (during Mid/Late game) by sending effective units against whatever my enemy exposes and changing my front line to meet with whatever they may send against me. Micromanaging really does make a difference, especially if you are Ordos or Harkonnen. Either win an attrition/guerrilla fight, gradually taking the fight to his base, or ambush his base suddenly with an Advanced Carryall drop and/or stealth units and/or suicidal units.

[Dezertfish]

thanks, what is your build order usually. I have been doing something along the lines of conyard, windtrap, barracks, factory, windtrap, outpost, refinery(to be upgraded), refinery(to be upgraded), barracks, barracks, windtrap, hangar, windtrap, starport, windtrap, palace.

I usually include flame/machinegun(atr)/gas turrets in there somewhere.

what is your build order like? Should I build 3+ refineries? If space is limited, what should I omit? Where should I include the other factory? Is there a way to turn his rush back on itself and not only destroy it, but teach him not to rush as well?

when I rushed, then I build barracks and factories like mad to minimize build time.

Also,  about the micro managing thing, how far can scouts go beefore they decloak?

[Chaos_Storm]

With scouts, wait until they are cloaked. Then when you select them and move the cursor to give them the order to move, when the cursor is close enough, the cursor will change to have some white arrows as well. This means the scout can get there without revealing himself (provided he takes the shortest route possible). Eventually you'll get a sense of distance but the cursor really does help.

Hmm, my build order? I don't really stick to one - I do whatever I feel I want to do. Usually it starts with something like these 2 (assuming you start with 30000):

1> Windtrap, Barracks, Factory, Factory, Windtrap, Outpost, Refinery, Windtrap, Refinery...

2> Factory, Barracks, Windtrap, Outpost, Factory, Refinery, Barracks, Windtrap, Refinery...

I just like having an early Outpost to go with early scouts. You may wish to build other things first. The Build order you posted is good for games starting with about 15000, but with 30000, you're building the refineries too quickly. I may be wrong, but I prefer spending until my money is down to about 12000, then I worry about money.

To stop that rush without rushing, you'll have to be either Atreides or Ordos. I don't know about Harkonnen if you go for an early 2nd, even 3rd Factory (then a refinery before the barracks as you'll be spending money so quickly). Use the splash damage, artillery units - Kindjal, Mortar, Minos, Kobras. Early 2nd Barracks and/or Factories should help you build enough of these units to stop a rush. Don't forget to guard your spice from a rush as well! Artillery should pound light vehicles (Sand bikes, Dust scouts, Buzzsaws) very quickly if they have too many and aren't moving them around much (you can't when rushing). Either that or counter rush, but don't take that rush to his base. Instead, target the Harvesters then continue developing as normal, except he will be slowed down a bit.

After the Early game, it's time to start thinking - sub-house structures? More Factories and Barracks? Go for Hangars, Starport and Palace(s)? Generally, you'll be trying to control the spice and protect your base in the Mid/Late game. If you are going for 3+ Factories, then think about a 3rd refinery. If you then have 2 Hangars, some sub-house structures and 3~4 Barracks as well, get a 4th refinery and build some extra harvesters and carryalls. Build units generally so that when you need something, it's there and not waiting to be built.

If space is limited, you do need to make a decision on either lots of low-tech units or some high-tech units (i.e. Hangar and Starport units). Then you need to build sustainable defences for your base and your spice fields. Harass the enemy a bit so that their forces/attacks don't grow out of hand. Then you need to make the decision to expand or to attack full-scale with what you've amassed. To expand, secure that place with some units first, then send the MCV, preferably along a route that you can easily defend. Then you'll need some good defences for that expansion - preferably as much as your first base so that you have somewhere to run away to if that gets destroyed. Build extra refineries as you feel necessary. If you expand successfully, you'll have a huge advantage with extra money, building facilities, room to maneouvre, potentially several palaces (this speeds up superweapons a lot until you get to about the 5th palace) and an extra life.

Try starting with Atreides - you don't need as much micromanagement with their units and they are versatile. Once you get a feel for the game, think about Ordos and Harkonnen. They require a different psychology to win - Ordos need more micromanagement to put speed and regeneration to work, Harkonnen need micromanagement for combined arms. But with any house, you need to use space wisely, guard your spice, control the map, know your enemy and bring about favourable fights, removing counters for followup units (e.g. Minotauruses versus enemy Snipers, then Light Infantry/Snipers against their Kindjal).

The best players are microing macroers. Meaning they know how to tactically win fights and strategically win the battle. Tactics is about using the right units in the right place in the right formation to beat the enemy group. Strategy is about spice economy, building space economy, building and bringing enough reinforcements, predicting how enemy forces will move/react and deciding whether you want to control the majority of the map to pressurise him and then kill him, or ambush him, perhaps with an air drop followed up by a conventional attack from his front door (which should have less units defending if your air drop was successful).

Good luck Dezertfish, I hope you get a victory through strategy and tactics soon.

[Chaos_Storm]

Woa, that was long. Put simply, try to survive the rush stage of the game so that you can gain experience against humans in the later stages. With experience, you'll become better and start having fun at winning with better planning and/or micromanaging.

[Dezertfish]

thanks, I will try all of that and it sounds like it will work.

About the starting money amounts, if everybody starts with about 10,000 do you think they will rush?

[Timenn]

Yes, only the rush is somewhat delayed...

[emprworm]

there is no one "way" to defend vs. rush.  This is because rushes in themselves are a whole seperate breed of strategy.  You have atr rushes (yes!  atr actually has a good rushing strat), there are 3 types of Ordos rushes, 2 good harkonnen rushes and some very nice IX rushes.  Defending vs. rushes is completely different for each type of rush.    Part of it is knowing your player.  I can set up a nice base defense vs. an IX rush, but it wont do a thing to stop an ordos rush and vise versa.  

[Dezertfish]

:O could you describe the different types of rushes?

And what you would probably do against each. ;D

[paul_of_arrakis]

cos i kinda don't get you

what exactly is "The Rush"?

soz if this has al;ready been asked

[Black_Emperor]

"The Rush" is when ppl manufacture many quick building units and quickly send em to a base early in the game

[Dezertfish]

And usually swamp the opponent so badly they cannot recover. It is tough for even a devastator to survive being attacked by 30 dust scouts, AA troops, lasers, chem inf, etc.

If you want to see it demonstrated start an online game with 30,000 credits on a small map.

[Frodo_I]

Oh, yeah, my whole request in that last post was if ya'll know how to beat the rush without a counter-rush, please post it. And if anyone doesn't rush and would like to give me some pointers on how to get past the rushing stage of the game and beyond, I would be very grateful.

Try this next time your in a 30k game.  If your harkonnen, make a barracks, make one factory, then two hangars before you make any refineries.  Then start making equal proportions of tanks and buzz saws while you make gunships, (don't forget scouts and some infantry to keep out their scouts).  You should be able to sustain buiding until you get two refineries and two upgrades at least, so when you get low on money stop the production of vehicles.  This sounds like your out of the rush stage but i assure you i can make 4 gunships less than 5 minutes into the game.  Make at least one gunship platform so your ships can reload.

When the enemy comes he will try and rush through your vehicles (for a "rush" you don't hit harvestors).  If you don't think you have enough vehicles build turrents; but, when he starts attacking your vehicles send all your gunships to his base.  Go for his barracks first to stop production of AA troops, then his factory/factories, then his construction yard.  DON"T hit his refineries cause it s 30k game, he can just build more.

The point is that you wanted counter rushes, there you go, if you get his barracks, factory, and construction yard, he's paralyzed, can't build, can't train, just waits till you get around to killing him

[Dezertfish]

:Dand it teaches him not to rush me... :D

[ken124578]

the easiest way to counter a rush is to use one, there.

or if ur atreides just build turrets (man those things are annoying)

atreides are prof. in turtling (%$# i hate that)

[ken124578]

the rush you get depends on the units you use to defend.

example: you pomp out buzsaws?

then i'll pump out kobra's kobra's own light vehicles.

[Dezertfish]

enough dust scouts or buzzsaws can overwhelm some kobras, that is the problem

[ken124578]

guess whats in front OF the kobra's?? yes a few dusties to stop the assault, btw. have i told ou that it takes 3 shots of a kobra to kill a buzsaw and it takes like 2 shots from a horde of buzsaws to kill a kobra?

[Dezertfish]

The main advantage of using light vehicles to rush is not their power, or anything else other than they can be built in mass very early into the game. And that they do have a good firepower when you use a whole bunch.