All these new books

[Chani]

I have been happily collecting the Dune books for many years now, and keep buying the new "inquels" or whatever they are called, and decided (as I was under the impression Winds of Dune would be the end of it, that there would be no more and I could get a nice full picture now) to start that The Butlerian Jihad and read my way through in the correct order or events.

I know, everyone hates the BH/KJA books. But I just love to know the details and what happened/ what was supposed to have happened and what ties everything together.

I am now just finishing Dune Messiah again and about to start Winds of Dune, and am loving living in the Dune universe again, I left it too many years.

However, NOW there is another bloody new book!! That falls BEFORE the book I am on. I cant start the entire thing again, because its taken up about 3 months already. Gr. As much as I look forward to reading about how the things in Sisterhood of Dune came about, I really wish that one day, when they say its the end, it really is that. The end.

Rant over, I just wanted to vent,

Amy x

[Lawliet]

Nice to know that there is a girl on the forum. :)

Back on topic, i couldn't help but laugh at your story, it was kinda funny. :P

I hate what Brian and Anderson did and are still doing. A couple years ago, they said "the Dune series are far from over!". Well, it's time they finish it already. Seriously. How many books are there so far? I think 18. 18! The winds of Dune, as you said, is not the last one. They're writing one called The Throne of Dune AND ANOTHER ONE called Leto of Dune. And i'm not counting Dune short stories like The Road to Dune and stuff like that. How do you know if Herbert wouldn't have hated the new books?

[SandChigger]

They're writing one called The Throne of Dune AND ANOTHER ONE called Leto of Dune. And i'm not counting Dune short stories like The Road to Dune and stuff like that. How do you know if Herbert wouldn't have hated the new books?

Um... WRONG.

Sales of the last two (three?) books were so craptascular that the publishers called Kevvy to New York and reamed him a new one and pulled the plug on the Heroes of Dune series.

Kevvy skulked back to Colorado with what was left of his tail tucked ever so gently into the new hole and set his little brain to spinning a tale that would allow him to save face (if not tail). He told the world (or what little part of it that cared)...

We've decided we just can't stand NOT writing about the exciting formative period following the Butlerian Jihad any longer, so we're going to put the Heroes books—which never really were a "series" in the first place!—on hold temporarily and start A COMPLETELY NEW TRILOGY called the "Great Schools of Dune" and the first volume will be all about the magical & mysterious Bene Gesserit witches. We're going to call it... THE SISTERHOOD OF DUNE!

So, it's going to be the Twisted Sisters of Dune, The Swashbuckling Swordmasters of Dune, and the Merry Mentats of Dune and THEN if anyone is still interested they're supposed to return to Thunderthrone of Dune and Letotard, Dunecat of Dune.

Hopefully Anderson will be out dictahiking on some wooded path one fine autumn day and run into a bear and be eaten whole. They'll find his IC recorder in the scat and be unable to recover any of his "writing". But somehow the five minutes of his demise will find its way onto the net and be enjoyed long after these hideous books are gone and forgotten.

And Holy Maker knows I wish I was making this up. :(

[Lawliet]

Um... WRONG.

Sales of the last two (three?) books were so craptascular that the publishers called Kevvy to New York and reamed him a new one and pulled the plug on the Heroes of Dune series.

Kevvy skulked back to Colorado with what was left of his tail tucked ever so gently into the new hole and set his little brain to spinning a tale that would allow him to save face (if not tail). He told the world (or what little part of it that cared)...

We've decided we just can't stand NOT writing about the exciting formative period following the Butlerian Jihad any longer, so we're going to put the Heroes books—which never really were a "series" in the first place!—on hold temporarily and start A COMPLETELY NEW TRILOGY called the "Great Schools of Dune" and the first volume will be all about the magical & mysterious Bene Gesserit witches. We're going to call it... THE SISTERHOOD OF DUNE!

So, it's going to be the Twisted Sisters of Dune, The Swashbuckling Swordmasters of Dune, and the Merry Mentats of Dune and THEN if anyone is still interested they're supposed to return to Thunderthrone of Dune and Letotard, Dunecat of Dune.

Hopefully Anderson will be out dictahiking on some wooded path one fine autumn day and run into a bear and be eaten whole. They'll find his IC recorder in the scat and be unable to recover any of his "writing". But somehow the five minutes of his demise will find its way onto the net and be enjoyed long after these hideous books are gone and forgotten.

And Holy Maker knows I wish I was making this up. :(

Wow. After doing some research it turns out that they are indeed writing The sisterhood of Dune. I'm sorry. I did not know that. But i'm not making this up. They also plan to publish The Throne of Dune and Leto of Dune to finish the Heroes of Dune series. So, correct me if i'm wrong, but the whole series would be this :

Prelude to Dune trilogy

Dune: House Atreides (1999)

Dune: House Harkonnen (2000)

Dune: House Corrino (2001)

Legends of Dune trilogy

Dune: The Butlerian Jihad (2002)

Dune: The Machine Crusade (2003)

Dune: The Battle of Corrin (2004)

Dune 7

Hunters of Dune (2006)

Sandworms of Dune (2007)

Heroes of Dune

Paul of Dune (2008)

The Winds of Dune (2009)

The Throne of Dune

Leto of Dune

And The sisterhood of Dune, which would be the first in a new trilogy. :(

Did i get that right?

[SandChigger]

Wow. After doing some research it turns out that they are indeed writing The sisterhood of Dune. I'm sorry.

Not half as sorry as I am! :D

I was actually looking forward to Thunderthrone, because it will be set (mostly?) in the same inter-Messiah/Children period as Jessica's Wind, so KJA will have to address Shaddam's bid at retaking the imperial throne using his "Gland Ghola Army" (which didn't actually occur in the originals but which was so painfully obviously set up for in Winds) and Paul's transformation into The Preacher at Jacurutu. I suspect that last bit was going to be particularly amusing, since I can't imagine KJA being able to resist the temptation to get in a few lame jibes at Jacurutu and the Cast Out. ;)

And of course KJA trying to write Leto II as God Emperor... PURE COMEDIC GOLD!

They also plan to publish The Throne of Dune and Leto of Dune to finish the Heroes of Dune series.

So they say, but let's look at their stated timetable, at least what they were saying before, that they would be doing a McDune book every other year while working on their new "original" Hellhole trilogy. (Your summary of the books was correct, btw.)

"Heroes of Dune" (But remember, it's NOT a series! LOL)

Paul of Dune (2008)

The Winds of Dune (2009)

"Great Stools of Dune"

(first "Smellhole" volume, March 2011)

The Sisterhood of Dune (2012)

(second Smellhole, 2013?)

The Mentats of Dune (2014?)

(third Smellhole, 2015?)

The Swordmasters of Dune (2016?)

The Throne of Dune (early 2017?)

Leto of Dune (early 2018?)

The real problem with all this is, well... Brian Herbert. He turned 63 back at the end of June, so he'll be 70 when "they" will supposedly be writing Letotard. He acted like they'd changed his oil and given him a lube job last summer during the Winds tour, so he didn't seem as addled as in previous years, but with no book out this year we haven't heard or seen anything out of him since. (And even last year KJA couldn't help posting about Brian having some difficult days.) If you take a look at Brian's solo "Timeweb" series, it's pretty clear that he's no longer even the marginally capable writer he was in his heyday back in the '80s. As the years pass it's going to become even harder for them to keep up the farce about him actually contributing to the writing.

But not to fear! KJA isn't even 50 yet and there are all kinds of Herberts & Merritts waiting in the wings for their chance at milking Ole Bossie Dune.

I'm looking at having plenty to kvetch about until I go back into the dust. ;D

[athanasios]

So the next author to continue the series will be ... SandChigger! :P

[ErasOmnius]

So I was always defending Brian Herbert till I was blue in the face.

I say to myself: Well, in Paul of Dune, Brian Herbert is trying to make a analytical study of Historicity. A man's place in history. Whitmore Bludd's place in history - failing to protect Leto I's fiance in Paul childhood; then years later trying to make up for the act by assassinating Paul. Trying to secure a place in history.

Irulan's relegating the masterpiece Dune to an in-story novel called the Life of Muad'Dib. I say to myself: 'Self, Brian and Kevin are really going to have a big payoff on this'. They are really setting us readers up for a giant debate on the subject of a man and what legacy he or she leaves behind. But, of course I am alone in seeing all of this. My son says that I am 'being opposite'; saying that Paul is a great book, because all of mine and his friends are trashing it.

Then Winds is released, and the whole abandonment of House Atreides by House Vernius is explained as a near-temper tantrum by Bronso because his father asked about Paul's welfare in his last dying breath. 'Is Paul safe?', Bronso's father Rhombur asked. So Bronso Vernius decides he has to abandon Paul, Jessica, and Leto; over this one statement. Bronso decides to leave them to the mercy of House Harkonnen just 3 years later, because Bronso is having a teenage fit. Sorry Brian and Kevin, not buying it. And allegedly, just 16 years earlier Leto I risked EVERYTHING, to win back Ix for House Vernius from the Tleilaxu, in House Corrino.

Please don't ever write Throne or Golden Path.

Brian...Kevin...You should have stopped long ago...probably at the 3/4s point of Hunters.

[Bakufu]

At first I was really excited at the prospect of other Dune books. I'm on Heretics of Dune and I'm loving it. I'm really pumped to read the books by Brain Herbert and KJA...

...until I read reviews from people like SandChigger. Then I think of Wicked and how everyone sat on Gregory Maguire's dick because the play was phenomenal and then bought the book and convinced themselves it was prose out of this world.

SandChigger, I was reading some of your blog (and the post in here) and I have one simple question to ask you: if I love Dune---love everything about what Frank Herbert represents in that universe---will I really hate the books from BH and KJA that much? I want to convince myself otherwise. I want more of Dune. I don't want it to stop after Chapterhouse.

[Andrew]

@Bakufu

I didn't mind reading the House trilogy, but by the time I was through the second Butlerian Jihad book it was more of a chore, and took I think 2 years to bother reading the last Jihad book even though I owned it. Havn't read any new stuff since.

If you want Dune stuff to read, there are lots of books and articles.

Read the sticky thread A list of all Dune books and related work

I suggest going to local library and finding some of those books and articles. They are much better at challenging your imagination, brain and discussion over the original Dune books.

Do that first before reading prequels. :)

I can vouch for most of Writings and essays about Dune:. May need to special order some of the articles. I got them in storage somewhere.

Others: section has some interesting stuff too.

I enjoyed Brian Herbert's Dreamer of Dune as it was biography of Frank.

So to get most fulfilment out of original 6 Dune novels, read every little book or article that came out before reading any prequels (which could cloud your judgement of originals).

[Bakufu]

Thanks, Andrew, I saw that link earlier and read some of the articles. Definitely has some interesting stuff in it, but the model I want to see most is just an authentic continuation or exploration of the Dune universe. The House Trilogy and Heroes of Dune appeared to naturally fit this bill, but I heard so many crappy things about them. At least you mentioned the House trilogy was bearable. Obviously I've accepted that Frank Herbert is gone and can't write any more books, I was just hoping to hear that the legacy left behind him hasn't been completely tainted by the necessity to maintain a cash cow simply for it's production. What a bitter thought.

Regarding the Butlerian Jihad, what do you mean by the "second book?" I thought there was only one Butlerian Jihad book. Along with Machine Crusade and Battle of Corrin.

[Andrew]

Regarding the Butlerian Jihad, what do you mean by the "second book?" I thought there was only one Butlerian Jihad book. Along with Machine Crusade and Battle of Corrin.

You're correct, I meant butlerian jihad series. So I meant Machine Crusade.

Quite frankly these triilogies could easily fit into two books if they cut a lot of repetitive stuff out.

In original books, I'd read a chapter, and then go read it again because it contained so much information and I had to actually process and analyse what I was reading. In new books, they spell out everything for you, leaving nothing to imagination and I found myself skipping paragraphs because they were pointless.

[Bakufu]

In original books, I'd read a chapter, and then go read it again because it contained so much information and I had to actually process and analyse what I was reading. In new books, they spell out everything for you, leaving nothing to imagination and I found myself skipping paragraphs because they were pointless.

Same here. What are your opinions regarding Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune? I already bought them as I assumed it was necessary since Chapterhouse supposedly leaves the story unfinished. It seems a little odd that Hunters and Sandworms span longer than any other Dune book yet they're supposed to be a single story, Dune 7. Did Frank Herbert plan on producing two books for Dune 7?

[Andrew]

I havn't read Dune 7-8 (nothing after jihad series). But if I do I will be getting them from library.

Not sure about how many books it was supposed to be. I doubt Frank would have wrote 6 prequel books in order to write Dune 7 though.

[Chani]

Regarding Hunters/Sandworms, I read these and would say if, like me, you are hungry for more information on the Dune universe, and willing to accept different writing styles, then I would say read them, and enjoy what there is to discover. In fact I hold the same thoughts on The Butlerian Jihad trilogy and indeed the 3 original prequels.

I must confess that Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune have somewhat let me down though. Especially Winds of Dune. If this is the direction the writing will take, I'm not sure I necessarily need more.

I have the basic background of the Bene Gesserit origins/Mentat origins etc from other books, so I don't really feel compelled to read the about the schools of Dune.

That's probably where the problem lies for me. I was intrigued by the histories, and the Jihad and how things came to be, and even though the writing style is different, the information was new and important. As things unfolded it was quite enjyable to go "Ohhh!!! THAT'S what she's going to do/be" and it mean something to me. I was interested in the stories about Leto and the Baron and House Vernius. I wanted to know how the story ended. But now we have it, a full arc. I don't *need* any more information to complete the tale.

Having just finished Winds of Dune, it was like comparing the works of JRR Tolkien to the works of JK Rowling in terms of the level that the writing will challenge you. That isn't necessarily a slight to JK Rowling, or even BH/KJA but it is more like a lighthearted read, to wile away a train journey, rather than something I to be excited about.

So I would say read Hunters/Sandworms and even the prequels and the Jihad books. But I dont think Paul/Winds are vital to the telling of the tale and though you should read them if you want to (of course), I wouldn't worry yourself about getting hold of them....

[Bakufu]

I have to admit, I was looking forward to Paul of Dune the most. I think I'll be able to accept Hunters/Sandworms. Harry Potter books are fun, easy reads, but vastly inferior to something I consider phenomenal such as the Wheel of Time series. That being said, I still enjoyed the simplicity of Harry Potter; if Hunters/Sandworms is comparable in that regard, then I'll probably enjoy it. Thanks for the info.

[Dante]

The "House" series was tolerable. Barely. Everything after that has just been painful. I read the "Legends" series until about 3/4 through Battle of Corrin, at which point I had to put it down because thinking about how awful it was gave me a headache. These are the only books I have ever read that have caused me physical pain, and I can tolerate a pretty high level of shittiness in my prose (you know who you are). From what I can discern of the books published after that, things only got worse.

I never finished Corrin and don't plan to. It's just... it's like having a beautiful, intricate painting, and you look at it and think "Hey, I wonder how those figures in the background came to be there?" And then some child comes along and fingerpaints a bright red bus on top of them, leaving the faces peering through the windows like some sort of twisted nod to the genius who went before. That is what the new books have become: hideous daubs of garish paint that not only fail to add anything worthwhile to the image but actually obscure the original masterpiece in places. Read them if you want one sub-par opinion on the details of Dune, but don't expect anything greater than a small aneurysm of sheer disgust.

On an unrelated note, what's your trouble with Wicked? I rather liked it.

[ErasOmnius]

I think in retrospect that the House series is tolerable--although Leto's character is distorted, but I like the expansion of Fenring and Margot.

The Butlerian Jihad I have a hard time with...and I can barely tolerate any of the dialog that does not contain Erasmus, who is one of the only REAL characters in the 3 books. From super-Vorian to predictable Omnius, it can be a tiresome 2600 pages in total.

Hunters is the best work of all of the BH/KJA novels. Sandworms is ludicrous, and in a way kind of reminds me of something BIG that Frank would do -- although I'm not crazy about ultra-happy endings.

Paul and Winds are filler books.

Wicked was good as a book...really good as a musical.

It's Son of a Witch that I'm not crazy about.

As far as Dune goes, there will never be anything again like Frank releasing Heretics.

[Bakufu]

Good to hear everyone's opinions. I debate with myself every time the 40% coupon arrives from borders and I see that three-pack of Battle of Corrin, Butlerian Jihad, and The Machine Crusade.

Wicked...it's not so much that I didn't like it, just that I see too many people claim him to be this superb writer. I was really intrigued by the idea and the story, but it always felt like Maguire was shifting to a new thought without completing the last. It felt so disjointed and shallow. I wouldn't call his writing ostentatious as I've seen others describe in their reviews, but it was unnecessarily flashy and flowery. Instead of invoking the need for analysis as a book like Dune does, Wicked creates a sensation of perpetual hope that the book is eventually going to develop something substantial for prolonged thought. Before I knew it the book was over and I sat there thinking that maybe the next book would get somewhere. Haven't bothered to pick up Son of a Witch because of that.

[Lord J]

I also found the House books to be somewhat enjoyable, but the Legends series lost me. It's funny, because I wanted to know what the Jihad was, and where the BG came from, and why the Atreides and Harkonnens hated each other, etc., but by the end of the Machine Crusade I really didn't care. It was a chore to read that series, and not in the, "yeah, Leto isn't really doing that much but, holy crap what the hell was that?!?!" of TGEoD. I haven't read anything KJA/BH since, and I don't really plan to. I feel that Frank developed a universe based on the longterm prediction of social and biological sciences, and KJA/BH are writing traditional fan fiction (a fun story set in a particular universe) and I'm just not interested. As one of the authors of, as Dante puts it, "shitty prose," I know that there is a place for fan fiction, and it's something near and dear to my heart. But just as I will not finish a piece of fanfiction that bores me to tears, I sure as hell will not pay to read it.

I enjoyed Wicked, though it can be rough going in certain spots. I'm still not entirely sure that I understand what he was going for, particularly with the interspecies bestiality scene. I haven't seen the play, yet, mostly because it has been inconvenient. Son of a Witch.... I just didn't enjoy it. There wasn't very much exciting in the book, and I didn't like the complacency of the main character. I think I might have been spoonfed too much messiah mythos, but I kept waiting and waiting for him to do something. It was kind of like the first time I read TGEoD, except that I don't feel that the Elphaba's son was even as interesting as any of the characters in the Duniverse. Haven't read A Lion Among Men. May not ever get around to it.

[SandChigger]

You want more Dune? Go buy a bag of sand and a brick. Pour the sand out on your floor, kneel beside it and then bash yourself in the face with the brick until you fall forward, semi-conscious. There, you're now just as close to Dune as you'll be after reading KJA's McDune crap.

Sure, read them, read them all. That's the only way you can really know whether they're good or bad, whether you like them or not. (But borrow them from the library or buy them used, OK?) When you've finished, if you agree they're crap, cool, let's talk. If not... well, kutabare.

it's like having a beautiful, intricate painting, and you look at it and think "Hey, I wonder how those figures in the background came to be there?" And then some child comes along and fingerpaints a bright red bus on top of them, leaving the faces peering through the windows like some sort of twisted nod to the genius who went before.

Brilliant! I'm going to quote you on that.

[Caid Ivik]

I don't know why you bother so much scowling at KJA for taking the Dune brand. Frank Herbert is dead. Any possibility to continue Dune saga in original meaning died with him. Everything attempted to expand the universe would still be only a spinoff.

On the other hand, there are thousands of authors, who try to approach sci-fi genre in a similar way as he did, just without the universe and other parts of the Dune "brand". Why don't you read that instead? KJA's Dunes are like Fiats made with Ferrari markings, I would prefer the opposite.

[SandChigger]

Assuming that was directed at me...

If you don't get it, you don't get it, and there's no point in wasting my time or yours trying to explain it to you.

And to disabuse you of an obvious misunderstanding, I do read plenty of other authors. :)

[MrFlibble]

It's just... it's like having a beautiful, intricate painting, and you look at it and think "Hey, I wonder how those figures in the background came to be there?" And then some child comes along and fingerpaints a bright red bus on top of them, leaving the faces peering through the windows like some sort of twisted nod to the genius who went before. That is what the new books have become: hideous daubs of garish paint that not only fail to add anything worthwhile to the image but actually obscure the original masterpiece in places.

I completely agree with 'Chig, this analogy is simply brilliant

Only in case of Dune it was not a child but a grown-up guy who got paid for it :P

[Lawliet]

it's like having a beautiful, intricate painting, and you look at it and think "Hey, I wonder how those figures in the background came to be there?" And then some child comes along and fingerpaints a bright red bus on top of them, leaving the faces peering through the windows like some sort of twisted nod to the genius who went before. That is what the new books have become: hideous daubs of garish paint that not only fail to add anything worthwhile to the image but actually obscure the original masterpiece in places. Read them if you want one sub-par opinion on the details of Dune, but don't expect anything greater than a small aneurysm of sheer disgust.

On an unrelated note, what's your trouble with Wicked? I rather liked it.

This is one of the smartest comments/analogys i have ever read.

[Caid Ivik]

There was a very similar comment about the fate of C&C series on sme.sk website (original in Slovak). Imagine you have an old book you look with nostalgy upon, preserve as a personal treasure, companion for long winter days. Then there is a family meeting, lot of fun, and your 2-year old nephew takes the book, scratches few pages out, draws something on the others, and everybody is laughing and saying how cute is it. Everybody but you, looking with horror at the destruction. Anyway, the saga of interpreting the series, comparing movies, prequels and the original becomes even more interesting than the content of the books.

And to disabuse you of an obvious misunderstanding, I do read plenty of other authors. :)

I hadn't the slightest doubt about it.