Israel attacks "Free Gaza" flotilla

[MrFlibble]

So... Linguo-freakish stuff is now posted on FED2k too... Fomenko et al. would be pleased :P

[ErasOmnius]

athanasios,

Are you saying that the Greeks are somehow 'special Gentiles' to God?

[Caid Ivik]

So... Linguo-freakish stuff is now posted on FED2k too... Fomenko et al. would be pleased :P

Fomenko...

When we speak of Greeks - http://web.archive.org/web/20071227160154/http://www.ac-nice.fr/philo/textes/Plato-Works/16-Cratylus.htm

[SandChigger]

athanasios,

Are you saying that the Greeks are somehow 'special Gentiles' to God?

Oh, please don't dignify such blatant ignorance with a serious(?) question. ::)

The only reason any of the New Testament was written in Greek is because the language was the lingua franca of that part of the Roman world, not because of any special characteristic of either the language itself or its speakers.

[Caid Ivik]

It seems to me Greek became lingua franca actually because of some special characteristic of its speakers, namely their literacy and quality/universal value of written texts. For God, well, it doesn't have to mean much...  :)

[athanasios]

SandChigger's knowledge of Greek language is astounding! :P

Should I continue with Easter Isle now? Blah, it will complicate matters a lot...

-

No! My point was not that Greeks are special gentiles, even though such a [H]ypothesis may stand.

My point was that Greeks and Hebrew have a common origin. Some say that the Hebrew language is a derivative of Greek. IMO this is not correct. Hebrew has borrowed a lot of words from the Greek language, but the point is that both languages have evolved from a previous common language. Ancient inhabitants of Greece were of Semitic origin much like the Hebrews.

[SandChigger]

It seems to me Greek became lingua franca actually because of some special characteristic of its speakers, namely their literacy and quality/universal value of written texts. For God, well, it doesn't have to mean much...  :)

No, it probably had more to do with Alexander's armies spreading the language from Greece through Egypt and east towards India. And with Greek merchants and traders. And very little with fictional deities.

SandChigger's knowledge of Greek language is astounding! :P

It's highly possible, depending on your age, that I learned to read the language long before you did. Stuff that in a gyro and chew on it.

My point was that Greeks and Hebrew have a common origin.

True: Africa, several hundred thousand years ago. :)

Some say that the Hebrew language is a derivative of Greek. IMO this is not correct. Hebrew has borrowed a lot of words from the Greek language, but the point is that both languages have evolved from a previous common language. Ancient inhabitants of Greece were of Semitic origin much like the Hebrews.

A previous common language? Mmm, no. Greek is an Indo-European language; Hebrew is Semitic. Attempts to show a common origin for the two language families are dubious at best. Is the above a sample of what they teach you in school in Greece these days? Or is it some fool notion that popped into your head while you were herding or milking the goats?

[Eliyyahu]

athanasios,

So Eliyyahu the snake that deceived Eve was not Satan? Very odd!

Genesis 3:14-15 (KJV)

14. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Do you think all snakes are Satan, or are descent from Satan?  If Satan pulled this stunt all the in the beginning, why is Ha-Satan still portrayed as still being in God's service in the midst of His angels in Job and Zechariah?  Also, your interpretation requires that snakes are cursed are a result of Satan, an angel, disguising himself as, or possessing (?) a snake to tempt the human.  But the story portrays a snake being punished, and all its descendants, not rebellious angels.  

However one interprets the historicity of the story of Adam and Eve, there are certain points, certain truths that we Jews take out of it.  For instance, the conversation that takes place between God and Adam is significant to us.  God asks questions He surely already knows answers to.  He initiates a dialogue with Adam.  But Adam shifts the blame to God in the guise of blaming the woman "You gave me".  God then addresses the woman, and she blames the serpent.

Isn't it apparent that God is looking for honesty, and for personal responsibility here?  Does He come out swinging?  Does He say, "Sorry y'all, I'm afraid I've gotta kill yous now"?  Even when He is described as laying down curses, He does not tell the woman "I curse you," and when He speaks of making things more difficult for Adam He curses the ground, not man.  Following this incident God is portrayed as caring for them.  God is not described as suddenly cutting Himself off from them.  Eve credits God with the birth of Cain.  And later, when Cain is upset at the response to his offering, this is what God tells him.

Genesis 4:7 (KJV)

7. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This is after the supposed "fall of man."  God tells Cain that he can rule over sin, not that he is a slave to it, or that he is inherently a sinner.  And again, as with Adam and Eve, God asks questions to Cain that He surely knew the answers to.  He initiates a dialogue with the transgressor.  But Cain was not instantly struck down by the wrath of God.  He had children and descendants, he built a city, he was given a chance to live.  Adam, Eve, and Cain are often portrayed as villains, but all three are treated with mercy after their transgressions.  This is all too often overlooked.

We may yearn for the ideals of a Gan

[SandChigger]

What you are doing would be like me making a big deal about how the word Arizona (the name of a state in the US) contains a word for lion and a word for prostitute in Hebrew, but it is not a Hebrew word.  It just coincidentally contains sounds that can be found as words in Hebrew.

And I have to say, you strike me as someone who speaks their mind, and I have to wonder how you might respond to someone who does not know Greek making a presentation like you have above regarding a language it is apparent you do not know or understand.

LOL. Bravo!

(Sometimes, though, it's far more amusing to leave the ignorant to rot in their own stink.)

[Eliyyahu]

Jewish law play a role in Israeli political decisions. Turks don't understand it, because they aren't Jewish. Israel closes ports of another country and intercepts an NGO ship with Turkish citizens. Did Jewish law affect this decision too? How should now Turkey react? How do you think one would react?

Israel still has laws from the Ottoman and British periods, and they do not always go according to halacha, but it still plays a large role.  For instance, while Israel does not enforce all Jewish law regarding Shabbat, public buses and trains are pretty much non-existent in most of the country on Shabbat, and there are laws which prevent an employer from forcing someone to violate Shabbat by working on that day.  Hospitals in Israel are full of machines which are designed for Shabbat use without violation.  When I made the point about the Torah and halacha still having an impact in modern Israel, it was to point out that Israel is not just a "Jewish state" (as you put it) in name, or in blood (which neither determines that someone is, nor prevents someone from being a Jew).  What does it matter what Turkey thinks?  Does Turkey ask Israel how to run Turkey?

Regarding the flotilla, I have already long ago in this thread addressed Israel's justification for intercepting the flotilla, and doing it in international waters.  If you don't accept it, ok, but it was explained.  Turkey sent (or "backed" sending) ships to break through Israel's blockade of Gaza (the "country" in question), and when a few dozen people on one ship resisted rather than divert their aid (iirc, the boat didn't even end up having any useable aid) to Ashdod, there were deaths (a number of which, it has turned out, whose families said they were looking for martyrdom) and injuries.  Reports say that most of the people in the flotilla were on that one boat, and most of those people were rounded up into certain parts of the ship before the incident, while a group of a few dozen men awaited to attack the coming Israelis on the top deck.

If the organizers (I have no doubt many individuals really thought they were doing a good thing and were bringing Gazans things they don't have) were worried about being humanitarians they would bring their aid to the border crossings, but they were not, and they are not.  They are trying to create pressure on Israel to lift the blockade, which would allow Hamas to receive all of the things it requires to make war with Israel.  So long as Hamas controls Gaza they will always have dibs on what comes through.  So while everyone is making jokes about how Israel is evilly depriving Gazans of chocolate, the fact is that the Gazans are not the ones who will benefit from a lifting of the blockade.  They will continue to be oppressed by Hamas and other "resistance" groups until the world actually begins caring about Palestinians, and not just using them as a tool to delegitimize and weaken Israel.

[athanasios]

True: Africa, several hundred thousand years ago. :)

No! Greece and the rest of Europe several million years ago. No more tampering of the TRUE history of mankind! Artifacts and archaeology have PROVEN this.

A previous common language? Mmm, no. Greek is an Indo-European language; Hebrew is Semitic. Attempts to show a common origin for the two language families are dubious at best. Is the above a sample of what they teach you in school in Greece these days? Or is it some fool notion that popped into your head while you were herding or milking the goats?

Certainly not in the school. Those ruling us are traitors paid by CIA to spread their lies. Greek Indo-European? This is nonsense. Please go and do some serious research. Greek is half Semitic, half 'Indo-European'-if such a conglomeration really exists; because it is the Greeks and other Mediterranean tribes that migrated to India and not vice versa since civilization started in Europe. All the rest is lies spread by Creationists and Zionists who care not for their nation but for their pockets. Much like they did in ancient Israel too and were punished by YHWH repeatedly and their temple was destroyed twice never to be rebuilt.

Eiyyahu I think you are twisting the words and their meaning.

Nevertheless Cohen is borrowed from the Greek:

Λαοκόων (= a priest in Troy)

From the verb κω or κόω that means understand.

Κώης, Κοίης = Priest.

Λαός = People.

So the name means: Someone who understands fro the people.

Similarly in the Pacific Colonies of Greece (Polynesia) we find the:

Rongo Rongo

from the Greek:

ορών κώ.

Now some will repeat the chant:

"These are not scientific, these are not accepted by other specialists".

But I don't give a damned s***. Go and read real history and real books (if you can find them) not prefabricated fairy tales that really are pseudoscience to obscure the truth and suppress the masses.

[Eliyyahu]

Never to be rebuilt if you believe Ezekiel to be a false prophet.

Otherwise he vividly describes a Third Temple, and resumption of offerings on the Temple Mount.

And btw, a religious Jew is inherently a Zionist in the true sense of the word.  You fling the word around the same way your bible flings pharisee around, with poison (and ignorance), when you really have no clue what one is.

You do not know anything about the Hebrew language, that much is for certain.

I think I started to glean the picture with the "Jews worship Satan" links you posted, and is becoming a little bit clearer with the increasingly conspiratorial tone.

Hey man, to each his own.  I've learned that you can't argue with a gimmick, you lose either way, and so I will make that my last attempt at putting forth a rational and detailed argument in your direction.

[SandChigger]

You're getting the idea now, Elliyahu, that it's a waste of time to argue with some people. :)

Some stupidity doesn't deserve comment or response, other than being pointed out for what it is.

[MrFlibble]

Eliyyahu, thanks for the explanation regarding the Hebrew words, and discarding those false etymologies - deeply appreciated! :)

Just because different languages sometimes have similar or even identical sounding words, or "words" within words, does not mean they are related whatsoever.

What you are doing would be like me making a big deal about how the word Arizona (the name of a state in the US) contains a word for lion and a word for prostitute in Hebrew, but it is not a Hebrew word.  It just coincidentally contains sounds that can be found as words in Hebrew.

Heh, but you wouldn't believe how many people without any knowledge of linguistics claim they have found the "true" meanings of words, personal and place names etc. based on exactly this kind of folk etymologies, usually to further support various ridiculously far-fetched claims (e.g. that a certain nation or ethnicity fathered all other nations in the world, or that it once had ruled over most of the known continents, and the inhabitants of that imaginary global empire spoke a particular language the traces of which are "found" in the modern languages of the world).

You're getting the idea now, Elliyahu, that it's a waste of time to argue with some people. :)

Some stupidity doesn't deserve comment or response, other than being pointed out for what it is.

Very true. Agreed.

[Caid Ivik]

Israel still has laws from the Ottoman and British periods, and they do not always go according to halacha, but it still plays a large role.  For instance, while Israel does not enforce all Jewish law regarding Shabbat, public buses and trains are pretty much non-existent in most of the country on Shabbat, and there are laws which prevent an employer from forcing someone to violate Shabbat by working on that day.  Hospitals in Israel are full of machines which are designed for Shabbat use without violation.  When I made the point about the Torah and halacha still having an impact in modern Israel, it was to point out that Israel is not just a "Jewish state" (as you put it) in name, or in blood (which neither determines that someone is, nor prevents someone from being a Jew).  What does it matter what Turkey thinks?  Does Turkey ask Israel how to run Turkey?

Regarding the flotilla, I have already long ago in this thread addressed Israel's justification for intercepting the flotilla, and doing it in international waters.  If you don't accept it, ok, but it was explained.  Turkey sent (or "backed" sending) ships to break through Israel's blockade of Gaza (the "country" in question), and when a few dozen people on one ship resisted rather than divert their aid (iirc, the boat didn't even end up having any useable aid) to Ashdod, there were deaths (a number of which, it has turned out, whose families said they were looking for martyrdom) and injuries.  Reports say that most of the people in the flotilla were on that one boat, and most of those people were rounded up into certain parts of the ship before the incident, while a group of a few dozen men awaited to attack the coming Israelis on the top deck.

If the organizers (I have no doubt many individuals really thought they were doing a good thing and were bringing Gazans things they don't have) were worried about being humanitarians they would bring their aid to the border crossings, but they were not, and they are not.  They are trying to create pressure on Israel to lift the blockade, which would allow Hamas to receive all of the things it requires to make war with Israel.  So long as Hamas controls Gaza they will always have dibs on what comes through.  So while everyone is making jokes about how Israel is evilly depriving Gazans of chocolate, the fact is that the Gazans are not the ones who will benefit from a lifting of the blockade.  They will continue to be oppressed by Hamas and other "resistance" groups until the world actually begins caring about Palestinians, and not just using them as a tool to delegitimize and weaken Israel.

The hospital-machines and Shabbat peace are quite interesting and even inspiring in some ways, but it seems to me there is a grave difference between inner and foreign politics. It would be unacceptable if Turkey complained about these Shabbat-machines, yes. But foreign policies are always relations. It does matter what your neighbor thinks, at least if you try to trade with him and not isolate yourself like North Korea. That's why I asked, in how far can we apply traditional Jewish political views on foreign policy of Israel? Are there such?

The ships were of course a Turkish provocation and an independent Palestine, with or without the blockade, would end up as Kosovo, requiring international troops to maintain basic order. In fact the blocade is exactly what Hamas needs: an external enemy, who can be blamed for everything they fail to do in their inner policies. This is something a rational politician would prevent; he would think about how his neighbor think. He would try to invest and support to prevent bad moods. But what can you do, when you can't think of anything else than bad moods?

[Eliyyahu]

Caid,

The hospital-machines and Shabbat peace are quite interesting and even inspiring in some ways, but it seems to me there is a grave difference between inner and foreign politics. It would be unacceptable if Turkey complained about these Shabbat-machines, yes. But foreign policies are always relations. It does matter what your neighbor thinks, at least if you try to trade with him and not isolate yourself like North Korea. That's why I asked, in how far can we apply traditional Jewish political views on foreign policy of Israel? Are there such?

My comments about Jewish tradition and Jewish law in Israel were not to imply some unique Jewish reason for stopping the flotilla, but to try to give you a better idea of how Israel is a Jewish state, which you asked about.  The biggest issues which take into account halacha tend to deal with internal issues within the country.  Off the top of my head, I am not sure if any significant areas of Israeli foreign policy are guided or have been impacted by halacha.

The ships were of course a Turkish provocation and an independent Palestine, with or without the blockade, would end up as Kosovo, requiring international troops to maintain basic order. In fact the blocade is exactly what Hamas needs: an external enemy, who can be blamed for everything they fail to do in their inner policies. This is something a rational politician would prevent; he would think about how his neighbor think. He would try to invest and support to prevent bad moods. But what can you do, when you can't think of anything else than bad moods?

There is nothing Hamas doesn't benefit from.  They are in a win/win situation, because that is what the big-talk no-walk international community has given them.  Look at what the Palestinians have been offered and rejected over the last 60 years.  But why buy cow if you can get the milk for free?

[athanasios]

Never to be rebuilt if you believe Ezekiel to be a false prophet.

Because it didn't ever pass into your mind that it is a symbolic temple. Where is the river? Where is the appropriate geography?

And btw, a religious Jew is inherently a Zionist in the true sense of the word.  You fling the word around the same way your bible flings pharisee around, with poison (and ignorance), when you really have no clue what one is.

Only to add that Zion is exalted in dozens of Christian hymns I sing.

You do not know anything about the Hebrew language, that much is for certain.

Almost nothing. But this doesn't mean that I don't study the serious research of others.

I think I started to glean the picture with the "Jews worship Satan" links you posted, and is becoming a little bit clearer with the increasingly conspiratorial tone.

I think it is the opposite: "Gentiles worship Satan" and let us conspire against them to eliminate their sovereignty and rule over them. But both Jews and label Christians are ACCOUNTABLE to YHWH for removing his Holy Name from mankind. The punishment will be severe. I can guarantee you that.

[Caid Ivik]

My comments about Jewish tradition and Jewish law in Israel were not to imply some unique Jewish reason for stopping the flotilla, but to try to give you a better idea of how Israel is a Jewish state, which you asked about.  The biggest issues which take into account halacha tend to deal with internal issues within the country.  Off the top of my head, I am not sure if any significant areas of Israeli foreign policy are guided or have been impacted by halacha.

That answers perfectly, what I asked for.

There is nothing Hamas doesn't benefit from.  They are in a win/win situation, because that is what the big-talk no-walk international community has given them.  Look at what the Palestinians have been offered and rejected over the last 60 years.  But why buy cow if you can get the milk for free?

On the one hand, if Palestinians were given "independence", then it is their right to elect any kind of government, including the populist and militant Hamas. On the other hand, what can Israel do to support opposition, like eg.Abbas. What was the alternative they have been offered? To leave the land and go live elsewhere? That would need a clarification. If we speak about cows, or shepherds in general, weren't beduins forcibly settled?

[ErasOmnius]

This is probably sad and true, as to the behavior of Hamas. The murder of the manager of a Christian bookstore.

[athanasios]

Very bad when innocent people suffer from the beasts. May YHWH revenge their blood a hundredfold. They are doomed and will be burned. No paradise for them.

[athanasios]

Israeli navy fire on Gaza fishermen

IOF Injures one with an Artillery Shell at Wadi Salqa Village

IOF Kills Palestinian Civilian Collecting Scrap in North Gaza District. Al Mezan Condemns the Attack, Demands Criminal Investigation and Calls for International Protection for Civilians

[ErasOmnius]

The IOF can be misguided, but warning shots against fisherman is not a big deal. Israel is surrounded by enemies, especially now, since Egypt will probably be cancelling their treaty with the Jewish nation.

[Dante]

Firing on civilians isn't a big deal?

[athanasios]

They are not considered as civilians from Israel.

-

BTW Israel is going to face electricity black outs as the gas pipe from Egypt is not fixed yet and another one is off for repairs.

[athanasios]

Amsterdam, March the 7th 2011

PRESS STATEMENT

Freedom Flotilla 2 calls upon governments for protection of its citizens

Amsterdam - The organizations united in Freedom Flotilla 2 call upon their respective governments to take concrete action to ensure the safety of their citizens and prevent a repetition of last year’s lethal assault on their flotilla. On 31 May, 2010, the Israeli navy attacked a humanitarian sea convoy on its way to deliver solidarity and aid to the besieged people of the Gaza Strip, killing nine civilians. In May this year, a new flotilla will set sail to break and end the illegal blockade of Gaza. Organizers met in Amsterdam this past weekend to further their preparations.

Governments around the world condemned Israel’s attack on the Freedom Flotilla in international waters. UN Human Rights Council investigators called the treatment of civilians aboard the ships brutal and disproportionate. "There is clear evidence to support prosecutions of the following crimes within the terms of article 147 of the fourth Geneva Convention: willful killing; torture or inhuman treatment; willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health," the UN Human Rights Council Fact Finding Mission report determined.

The International Committee of the Red Cross deemed the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip illegal because it constitutes collective punishment of Palestinian civilians in Gaza. The UN Fact Finding Mission report affirmed, “the blockade is unlawful and cannot be sustained in law (….) regardless of the grounds.” Governments are legally bound to uphold and act against violations of international law and human rights treaties. This includes not only the blockade of the Gaza Strip and ongoing violence against the civilian population there, but also the colonization of the West Bank, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem, and the construction of the Separation Wall, declared illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004. Yet, the community of states is shamefully appeasing Israel’s crimes instead of acting to stop them.

“The humanitarian mission of the Freedom Flotilla 2 is a non-violent response to the deafening silence of our governments”, says Benji de Levie, spokesperson for the Dutch delegation. “Any attempt made – political or military- to obstruct or prevent the arrival of the Freedom Flotilla in the port of Gaza is an act in violation of international law and should be treated accordingly by our governments.” De Levie: “In the light of the current peaceful people-power protests in the Middle East, we expect our governments to be consistent in their foreign policy condemning all forms of human rights violations against peaceful civilian initiatives, regardless the perpetrator.”

Preparations in all regions involved (Europe, North America, North Africa, Asia, South-America and Australia) are going according to schedule. Approximately 15 ships carrying cargo and over a thousand freedom riders will set sail for Gaza in May. Among them will be journalists, politicians, humanitarian aid workers, artists, and human rights activists. The grassroots campaigns within the countries are growing steadily, which is reflected in large public events, such as the upcoming solidarity concerts and events.