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If Feyd had killed Paul...


Dunenewt
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Ignoring the impossibility of it all, the Jihad still would have occurred but would have been even more brutal.

I wanted to say exactly that.

What point did he lose control?  He never had control to begin with.

Absolutely.

Couldn't the collective houses and guild have invaded Dune? Wipe out all inhabitants?

They could have tried... and failed. Think of it, even the Sardaukar were no match for the Fremen. Paul's martyrdom would only have driven them into an even more frenzied state.

Also if Paul died, and no Leto II wouldn't humanity continue to stagnate and eventually die off (according to Leto II his harsh ruling was necessary for scattering)?

It depends on how much humanity was trapped inside Paul's vision at that point. Since there was a "nexus" from which Paul himself could not see the outcome with his oracular powers, perhaps it was possible that the problem Leto II's Golden Path was to solve would not have appeared in the first place.

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Since there was a "nexus" from which Paul himself could not see the outcome with his oracular powers, perhaps it was possible that the problem Leto II's Golden Path was to solve would not have appeared in the first place.

No, the problem had already appeared, but perhaps by this more violent jihad the problem would be eradicated/solved in a different way.

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/hugs Mahdi

Also if Paul died, and no Leto II wouldn't humanity continue to stagnate and eventually die off (according to Leto II his harsh ruling was necessary for scattering)?

Or would there eventually be another Krazilik to continue with what Paul/Leto II should have accomplished?

I really need to read the books again.

Me too, I always forget details. Along those lines though, I suspect that sooner or later someone else would have performed the same role as Leto II. Overlooking for a moment the whole hard determinist aspect and the impossibility of "what if" questions, if the Golden Path was clearly the only available route to by which to save humanity then it makes sense that it would be visible to more than one person, so long as they were looking at it from the same point of view.

Unless the BG suddenly got wise and started stamping out the possibility of prescience, ironically dooming the species. But I doubt that.

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I don't think there could be another Leto II. He was at the right place at the right time. He was the savior of humankind. Had he not enforced Leto's Peace and caused the scattering - humankind would have stagnated and died out.

Leto did what his father could not.

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I don't think there could be another Leto II. He was at the right place at the right time. He was the savior of humankind. Had he not enforced Leto's Peace and caused the scattering - humankind would have stagnated and died out.

Leto did what his father could not.

Could not or would not? That's an issue I've seen debated here before. Regardless, just because Leto was the one to do it does not mean that - theoretically - someone else could not have done so, given the same degree of prescience. The alternative is that the Golden Path was not the manifest route to survival but a rather more subjective plan of Leto's own devising. I'm disinclined to follow that line of thought since Paul had at least some idea of what he would have to do had he chosen that route.

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But the route itself was not guaranteed survival - it was the course to Kralizec.  It always seemed to me that, apart from the perfect prescient vision and ongoing life, Paul rejected it because the active plan was the enforced stagnation of mankind - Something Paul had been instructed from birth to reject.  Something Paul had been bred to avoid.  His entire essence was focused on opposing stagnation.  The purpose of his life was to inspire a wildfire of genetic mixing. 

I don't believe even Leto knew the Golden Path would succeed, only believed that it would.

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I don't believe even Leto knew the Golden Path would succeed, only believed that it would.

Didn't he say he knew it would succeed, when he was dying? And I think the Atreides who were "sensitized" to the Golden Path also knew if it continued or not.

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Absolutely, because we all know Christianity wouldn't be around today if Jesus hadn't rocked the gladius.

The majority of hebrews didn't convert because they wanted a "warrior messiah",not Jesus.A more popular messiah for few years was Bar Kochba but since he was a warrior messiah and he lose the war he eventually lose all the followers.

Paul Atreides is a warrior messiah:the worst thing he can do is to lose battles,but still being beated in a fair duel is a shame that could harm his follower's unity.

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The majority of hebrews didn't convert because they wanted a "warrior messiah",not Jesus.A more popular messiah for few years was Bar Kochba but since he was a warrior messiah and he lose the war he eventually lose all the followers.

Paul Atreides is a warrior messiah:the worst thing he can do is to lose battles,but still being beated in a fair duel is a shame that could harm his follower's unity.

No, it couldn't have.  Read the book again.  It states, over and over, that after the Jamis fight nothing could stop the Jihad.

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Nope, I was referring to your deleting of some posts, including mine, in order to erase any trace of actions by a certain unperson ;) (no offense!)

That was me.  The original post was removed by the actual poster, making all the subsequent ones pointless and confusing to other readers, so I split them all off and dungeonized them.

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No, it couldn't have.  Read the book again.  It states, over and over, that after the Jamis fight nothing could stop the Jihad.

Even Paul's death couldn't stop the jihad because there would be legends about it.Simply Paul couldn't do nothing in "Atreides style" to stop it.Going berserk and starting to kill other fremens,order the fremen to wait for Sardaukar to organize and then order to attack them unarmed,or losing a public duel against a weaker opponent don't make sense at all.You can't make legends on that kind of actions or worship,but Paul would never behave in a such stupid manner:he is the messiah for some reasons!

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Even Paul's death couldn't stop the jihad because there would be legends about it.Simply Paul couldn't do nothing in "Atreides style" to stop it.Going berserk and starting to kill other fremens,order the fremen to wait for Sardaukar to organize and then order to attack them unarmed,or losing a public duel against a weaker opponent don't make sense at all.You can't make legends on that kind of actions or worship,but Paul would never behave in a such stupid manner:he is the messiah for some reasons!

1)  He's not a real "messiah" he's a fraud.  That's one of the main points of the series.

2)  The books state, over and over and over again that absolutely nothing could stop the jihad, no matter what your personal views of proper messianic actions.

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  • 5 months later...

The Players: Feyd, Fenring, Shaddam, Alia, Guerney, Stilgar, Mohaim, numerous Fedaykin and Sardaukar, Irulan.

Can't remember if Rabban or Ashram are there, I think so. Maybe Lady Fenring and Jessica too?

There could be a big brawl, and the Fremen might renew Paul's threat to unleash the Water of Death.

After that it'd depend on who won and who escaped.

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